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Euston Scrum!!! is there a solution?

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philthetube

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This gets mentioned in many threads though I cannot recall/find a dedicated one.

Euston Station and staff are frequently critisised for this but what could be realistically done to prevent it.

I personally have not noticed any difference between a Euston scrum and a paddington scrum Glasgow scrum.

I just wonder if there is an answer to the problem?
 
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nlogax

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Hard to know what to suggest other than cut back on the time needed to clean and turn around stock for their n/b run. That would depend on how long each train is scheduled to sit at the platform. I'd hope someone who knows Avanti or LNWR's stock patterns could shed a light on whether it's feasible.

I've found that the Realtime Trains app is a (mostly) reliable solution to the problem..
 

Bletchleyite

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I can see a few solutions, some easier than others.

As far as immediate ones go, here's a couple of ideas:

The first one which I would implement immediately is to simply stop suppressing platform numbers for LNR trains entirely. They weren't suppressed in Silverlink days, and this only started when Network Rail took over operating the PIS (previously VT operated it, I understand). Platforming is very consistent, and most commuters know where to go anyway and just ignore the board (using RTT if necessary). There may be a need to keep suppressing it for trains that join/split at Euston, as I understand that there's a safety issue with having people on board when doing so (though I don't wholly understand why this is the case at Euston and not Northampton, and it may be best just to find a way to solve this issue if possible).

The second one, while it would make cleaning and servicing a little more difficult, would be that platform numbers for Avanti services should be put up as soon as the train has arrived and disgorged, with the doors (other than the cab end service door) being locked then the platform called. Then people can queue at a door if they wish. This doesn't seem to cause issues at Manchester Piccadilly - indeed, it's often the case (in normal times) that you'll see three Pendolinos lined up there, all ready to board if you wish, and cleaning done with passengers on board.

A few others, which may take some more work:

Make it easier to get a reservation, particularly when you already hold a flexible ticket, and allow those reservations to be made right up to the point the doors are unlocked for boarding. The mind utterly boggles as to why TPE and XC are the only TOCs to have done this, and in both cases in a fairly cack-handed way. LNER have implemented a reservation system for existing ticket holders during COVID (which appears to work with all TOCs), but why isn't doing this just built into the Avanti app and potentially available at TVMs too? It needn't do complex stuff, just give a scrollable list of trains departing the chosen station, tap the one you want, potentially enter the ticket number and away you go. Even better if it had a seat picker. Those taking part in the "scrum" are primarily those on walk-up tickets who are only offered the option to reserve at the point of purchase, which really negates the point.

When the trains are refurbished, ensure there is enough luggage space. Pendolino overheads are quite usable, but there's still not enough room - the luggage capacity for large items needs to be roughly doubled (which would mean the loss of 4 seats per coach, but it would be very worthwhile doing so). In the short term, just take 4 seats out per coach, just as they did with the Voyagers, ideally opposite where a rack is at present. This is a secondary (but much lesser) reason for the scrum.

Full compulsory reservations. (I had to get that one in for @Bantamzen - I do actually vastly prefer not making them compulsory but making them much easier to get).

Modify the layout of the station so Tensabarrier controlled queueing is provided for on the ramps, with the platform sections used for queueing and the exit being in the middle (the two groups of 4 "IC" platforms all have this layout). This might require ramp strengthening if not designed for that number of people, though. In that case, the platform should, in the manner of many airports, be displayed as soon as any previous booked train has departed from that platform.

Like the Swiss have for years, get typical (and actual) loading data into the journey planners. I expect a lot of people would plan to choose a quieter train, avoiding the need for the scrum, if they knew which trains *were* quieter! The data is clearly able to be collected - many commuter TOCs publish it for their peak services, though normally only on posters and their website - and it's easier to get for the likes of Avanti as you can work out easily how busy a given train will be, disruption aside, based on the number of reservations.
 

cactustwirly

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They put the platforms up at Paddington as soon as the inbound service arrives for suburban services. There is still a scrum as the turna times are quite short, less than 10 minutes for some services.
They don't put up the platform before it's arrived because they often are different to the booked platform.

Not sure what it's been like after December, with TfL taking over the GWR services have longer turnarounds and more fixed platforms.
 

Starmill

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One of the easier solutions would be to advertise the platform earlier, allowing a queue to form, and then the staff can walk up through the queue 'pre-checking' tickets while the train is being serviced on the platform. This is limited by the max length of the queue.

As it is, the platforms are (were) deliberately shown later, so that the number could be texted by priority to customers who'd booked online at their own website, giving them commercial advantage.

The more obvious thing to do is just have people waiting for a short period on the platform by the locked doors.

A further solution is to move the revenue staff roles more to onboard and less to pre-boarding. There is some advantage to the company doing it pre-boarding though in that they can get what they want far easier, whether that's charging someone with an LNR Only ticket should they still wish to board, or turning away valid tickets which they'd prefer weren't so, depending on your views. Some trains run full and standing too, which makes onboard ticket checking essentially impossible.

To summarise, the so-called scrum is in their interest enough that it has survived for many years for good reasons. I would add that there should be more latitude when advertising the platforms of LNR services too. It seems certain they don't need to be hidden as much as they are.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Even with compulsory reservations like airlines, there are often scrums well pre Covid anyway. Take a Delta flight through Atlanta for example. So at Euston it may help a little but not a lot imho. Having longer platform occupancy will hurt capacity. Don’t know if there are any easy answers.
 

Bletchleyite

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They put the platforms up at Paddington as soon as the inbound service arrives for suburban services. There is still a scrum as the turna times are quite short, less than 10 minutes for some services.
They don't put up the platform before it's arrived because they often are different to the booked platform.

Euston platforming is very near 100% consistent - that's necessary so it works, so busy it is (particularly now 17/18 have gone). Commuters often don't even look at the board - you see them going to the usual platform and looking puzzled if the expected train isn't there.
 

brad465

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I've found that the Realtime Trains app is a (mostly) reliable solution to the problem..
On the 30th November last year I travelled from Euston to Liverpool on a morning service that was in high demand for Liverpool FC home fans (I wasn't going to the game), and before the scrum for that very packed train there was a lot of uncertainty on which platform the service would get, with RTT fluctuating between around 3 different ones until it was given a platform. What was interesting though is quite a few other passengers must have been familiar with the site as when I was wandering atop the concourse a good few others were doing the same, but not in a way that suggested they were all just copying 1 person's behaviour, while I overheard one of the station staff say it won't be a given platform (I think 15) when RTT was suggesting that platform while walking past its entrance.
 

philthetube

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I can see a few solutions, some easier than others.



Modify the layout of the station so Tensabarrier controlled queueing is provided for on the ramps, with the platform sections used for queueing and the exit being in the middle (the two groups of 4 "IC" platforms all have this layout). This might require ramp strengthening if not designed for that number of people, though. In that case, the platform should, in the manner of many airports, be displayed as soon as any previous booked train has departed from that platform.
This sounds to me like an easy and , at least partial, fix
The issue I see with putting people on the platform before the train is ready are two fold.
Firstly that tanking would have to be completed first because of trip hazzards, and secondly
one idiot on the platform pushing a cleaner of other member of staff out of the way could easily cause a cancellation and undo any benefits
 

Bletchleyite

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Even with compulsory reservations like airlines, there are often scrums well pre Covid anyway. Take a Delta flight through Atlanta for example. So at Euston it may help a little but not a lot imho. Having longer platform occupancy will hurt capacity. Don’t know if there are any easy answers.

You don't see the same level of scrummage with allocated-seating airlines - this change was quite visible when easyJet introduced allocated seating (as I was flying twice weekly both sides of its introduction). Some people do like being at the front of the queue (they're the same ones who arrive at the airport at 3am for an 8am departure), but it makes a huge difference.
 

Bletchleyite

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As it is, the platforms are (were) deliberately shown later, so that the number could be texted by priority to customers who'd booked online at their own website, giving them commercial advantage.

That isn't the reason (or rather would only make a difference of about 1 minute), and indeed doesn't apply to LNR services at all (for which it's worst, as nobody has a reserved seat)
 

Bletchleyite

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This sounds to me like an easy and , at least partial, fix
The issue I see with putting people on the platform before the train is ready are two fold.
Firstly that tanking would have to be completed first because of trip hazzards, and secondly
one idiot on the platform pushing a cleaner of other member of staff out of the way could easily cause a cancellation and undo any benefits

The thing about these is that almost no other station does this other than London terminals, Glasgow Central, Edinburgh Waverley and Inverness, so these are clearly not actual issues. These things are dealt with just fine elsewhere, e.g. by having movable barriers to put around the pipes for tanking.
 

ChiefPlanner

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You don't see the same level of scrummage with allocated-seating airlines - this change was quite visible when easyJet introduced allocated seating (as I was flying twice weekly both sides of its introduction). Some people do like being at the front of the queue (they're the same ones who arrive at the airport at 3am for an 8am departure), but it makes a huge difference.

Yes - but there still is a rush for the plane , as obviously everyone has a seat , but they "have" to get their cabin baggage into a convenient rack space. Especially as their carry-on bags are usually just about inside parameters and heaven forbid that it might be a couple of metres from their allocated seat. Off topic a bit - but noticeable. Seconds count in getting off at the other end.....
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes - but there still is a rush for the plane , as obviously everyone has a seat , but they "have" to get their cabin baggage into a convenient rack space. Especially as their carry-on bags are usually just about inside parameters and heaven forbid that it might be a couple of metres from their allocated seat. Off topic a bit - but noticeable. Seconds count in getting off at the other end.....

There is, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was pre-allocated seating - it was very visible to me because I was using the same flights weekly (Monday EZY 2051 0625/0725 Luton-Geneva and the Thursday evening 6pm-ish EZY 2062 back) either side of the change (I even had a chat with Carolyn McCall about it when she was on my return flight one week!).

This would be an issue with the trains to some extent as well, which is why I proposed increasing the Pendolino luggage space as was done on the Voyagers - though most of the "scrummers" tend to be carrying only day bags or very small trolleys which easily fit the overheads, which on Pendolinos are not huge but are square-shaped and quite low down which means people do use them.
 

Mikey C

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The Euston platforms are wide and commodious, I really don't see why passengers aren't allowed to wait there say 5 minutes before the doors are opened. And with lots of people having seat reservations, they'll naturally spread along the platform anyway
 

SteveM70

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The first two problems to be overcome are making the people who can fix it recognise that it is indeed a problem, and then getting them to do something about it
 

route:oxford

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The Euston platforms are wide and commodious, I really don't see why passengers aren't allowed to wait there say 5 minutes before the doors are opened. And with lots of people having seat reservations, they'll naturally spread along the platform anyway

It's a long time since I was last in Euston.

Are they (or at least some) wide enough to allow a central section to be physically sectioned off with automatic doors to allow individual coach queueing. Almost like theme park rides.
 

mmh

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Change to on-platform waiting and the complaint will change to how dark and gloomy Euston is.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's a long time since I was last in Euston.

Are they (or at least some) wide enough to allow a central section to be physically sectioned off with automatic doors to allow individual coach queueing. Almost like theme park rides.

Not for individual coaches, but you could probably queue for individual trains to a sufficient extent.
 

Mikey C

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It's a long time since I was last in Euston.

Are they (or at least some) wide enough to allow a central section to be physically sectioned off with automatic doors to allow individual coach queueing. Almost like theme park rides.
I don't think you'd need to do anything formal, there's plenty of space for people to form natural queues. Indeed one of the best things about Euston is the platforms, which are massive when compared to other stations.
euston-railway-station-platforms-london-united-kingdom-B085Y8.jpg
 

Bletchleyite

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Talking of queueing, I mentioned Inverness, where people used to queue in a proper British manner (i.e. single-file, snaking around the concourse) for individual trains, and this only became a mini-Euston-scrum when barriers were totally unnecessarily added. (The system previously had the guard checking people onto their train, if I recall rightly, so the gateline requires more, not fewer, staff, so is inferior in pretty much every way).

This wouldn't quite work for Euston as volumes are higher, but it does of course retain manual checks at all but the suburban platforms 8-11 plus 1-3 where a gateline has been installed (but I guess wasn't considered successful, as the plan to install on 4-7 and 12-15 seems to have stalled). So a modified (with Tensabarriers) form of that queueing really should work.
 

py_megapixel

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Out of interest, is it possible to turnaround a Pendolino without locking the doors? I don't see any reason why the staff need the train to themsleves if they're just performing a quick clean and litter pick. Possibly toilet tanks could be more of an issue but the toilets could be locked out of use and not the rest of the train.

Possibly it could be accompanied by notices next to the doors along the lines of "If you board the train early, please be mindful of the staff who are working to keep your trains clean."
That way, you get passengers gradually filtering into the carriages (since I'd wager the majority would rather sit on the train, even with lots of staff moving around them, than on the notoriously seat-lacking concourse and platforms at Euston), as opposed to all packing in with a few minutes to spare.
 

route:oxford

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I think that is a little unfair. Also lighting is relatively inexpensive to solve I would think.

It looks really quite bright and airy. As well as if there was plenty of room for a gated central section.

(I was in Washington DC in January, now their underground stations were designed for people with photophobia!)
 

Bletchleyite

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Out of interest, is it possible to turnaround a Pendolino without locking the doors? I don't see any reason why the staff need the train to themsleves if they're just performing a quick clean and litter pick. Possibly toilet tanks could be more of an issue but the toilets could be locked out of use and not the rest of the train.

Yes. Turnarounds at Manchester Piccadilly are normally done without restricting access to the train.

It looks really quite bright and airy. As well as if there was plenty of room for a gated central section.

(I was in Washington DC in January, now their underground stations were designed for people with photophobia!)

8-11 was intended for "railside" waiting until they started suppressing platforms on outersuburban services, and many commuters still do by way of either RTT or just remembering the platforms. To some extent it still is because platforms are not suppressed on LO services (it's always either 9 or 10 anyway!). Though all three of the groups of 4 are the same width anyway.
 

Ianno87

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The Euston platforms are wide and commodious, I really don't see why passengers aren't allowed to wait there say 5 minutes before the doors are opened. And with lots of people having seat reservations, they'll naturally spread along the platform anyway

One consideration given the narrowness if the ramps is not announcing a train until the arriving train on the opposite passengers has cleared all its passengers on the ramp. This prevents horrendous congestion and cross-flows on the narrowest ramps.
 

Clip

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When the old concourse was there at Kings Cross , they used to make people queue in lines by using a lettering system... Just about always seemed to work whenever i encountered it
 
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gg1

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Whenever I've used Virgin/Avanti services from Euston I always check RTT on the concourse for my service, IME approximately 15% of them are subject to last minute platform changes.

At first I thought this was an error on the part of RTT but I now wonder if it could be down to the operator not 100% confirming which train operates which service until shortly before departure, would certainly explain why there's sometimes only a small window between platform announcement and departure.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whenever I've used Virgin/Avanti services from Euston I always check RTT on the concourse for my service, IME approximately 15% of them are subject to last minute platform changes.

At first I thought this was an error on the part of RTT but I now wonder if it could be down to the operator not 100% confirming which train operates which service until shortly before departure, would certainly explain why there's sometimes only a small window between platform announcement and departure.

RTT is just a guess based on previous performance until such time as the number goes bold, which is then 100% accurate (barring a last minute set swap) for Euston. What you can do though is cross-reference against the arrivals display, which helps give some reassurance.

It would be better if we could solve the problem properly so there was no need to use the likes of RTT to work around it, though.
 

Clip

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RTT is just a guess based on previous performance until such time as the number goes bold

I thought it was based on the working timetable of which platform it is booked on rather than just a 'guess'
 
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