Out with credit-card sized stock and in with mobile ticketing - is it too early?

[Hadders]

Why should we pay for printer cartridges

You don't have to. In due course I suspect tickets purchased from ticket offices or dispensed from TVMs will be e-tickets.

Do e-tickets allow for the purchase of multiples of tickets for the same journey to be stored on one smartphone?

Yes.

It does differ from an airline boarding pass in that in the event of some failure (etc) you can't get on the aircraft and thereby incur any "non-payment" punitive action; you may even be able to get the boarding pass reprinted at check-in. And once onboard, no further ticket examinations take place. In other words, there is no risk associated with use of electronics. Whereas you can board a train and unwittingly be able to show your ticket, and that may incur punitive action. That is the issue I have.

That can be a problem but so can misplacing a paper ticket once you've boarded a train (something I have managed to do in the past!). E-tickets are effectively a barcode and how you present that barcode for inspection doesn't matter.

 

[JonathanH]

You don't have to. In due course I suspect tickets purchased from ticket offices or dispensed from TVMs will be e-tickets.

Isn't part of the justification for e-tickets to remove the need to install and maintain ticket machines?

 

[Hadders]

Isn't part of the justification for e-tickets to remove the need to install and maintain ticket machines?

Realistically you'll never get rid of the option to buy a ticket at a station however I'd expect the number of tickets being purchased or collected at stations will reduce leading to a reduction in TVMs.

 

[221129]

Do e-tickets allow for the purchase of multiples of tickets for the same journey to be stored on one smartphone?

Yes....

 

[Haywain]

Are the printer cartridges in booking offices any cheaper seeing as they must run out of ink pretty quickly as they would print far more in a week than you would use in a year surely?

Thermal printing is generally used in ticket offices, no ink or printer cartridges involved.

 

[py_megapixel]

Realistically you'll never get rid of the option to buy a ticket at a station however I'd expect the number of tickets being purchased or collected at stations will reduce leading to a reduction in TVMs.

It wouldn't surprise me if within the next couple of decades TVMs become nothing more than an iPad running a ticket sales app, with a thermal printer and an NFC reader for smartcards and contactless payment. Such accessories do already exist but have not been used in this application yet as far as I'm aware.

 

[Journeyman]

It wouldn't surprise me if within the next couple of decades TVMs become nothing more than an iPad running a ticket sales app, with a thermal printer and an NFC reader for smartcards and contactless payment. Such accessories do already exist but have not been used in this application yet as far as I'm aware.

They already exist, although Android devices are more common due to iOS limitations. Many stations use them.

 

[trainophile]

Are the printer cartridges in booking offices any cheaper seeing as they must run out of ink pretty quickly as they would print far more in a week than you would use in a year surely?

It's not my worry how much booking offices spend on printer ink, given I am not directly paying for it. I don't do much printing, next to nothing really, but I had to pay something like £30 for a pair of cartridges to print off refund claims for TPE in March, as the forms required colour as well as black. Some people don't even own a printer as they don't have need of one.

 

[ABB125]

The CrossCountry app emails you PDF copies of your e-ticket. You can also add the ticket to the app, but I can't comment on how effective that is, because I always either use a printed copy, or show the PDF outside of the app.

 

[AM9]

Thermal printing is generally used in ticket offices, no ink or printer cartridges involved.

Which is why they fade when exposed to day/sunlight. Not normally a problem, except for railcards and annual season tickets.

 

[221129]

It's not my worry how much booking offices spend on printer ink, given I am not directly paying for it. I don't do much printing, next to nothing really, but I had to pay something like £30 for a pair of cartridges to print off refund claims for TPE in March, as the forms required colour as well as black. Some people don't even own a printer as they don't have need of one.

Then show it as a PDF on your phone? Problem solved.

 

[alistairlees]

Realistically you'll never get rid of the option to buy a ticket at a station however I'd expect the number of tickets being purchased or collected at stations will reduce leading to a reduction in TVMs.

ETickets being and smartcard tickets being rolled out should lead to several changes in the TVM market:

1. There should be far fewer of them. I think there are currently around 5,000

2. They eventually will no longer need the ticket on departure functionality. The ‘TODler’ machines (which do ToD collection only) can be dispensed with.

3. The remaining TVMs can be both much more limited in scope (so selling a more limited range of tickets, that is appropriate to the origin location, but doing it far better than now from a UI and product explanation point of view - see railforums threads passim) and based on consumer electronics using familiar interfaces and components, but with a ticket issuing system api providing the logic in the background. I have long advocated this to RDG. Stuff like reservations and journey planning needs to be handled much better, but this is not hard really. And should only be present where it has value (a limited number of intercity stations - even then I am not wholly convinced).

The goal should be to retire ToD, to reduce the complexity of issuing physical tickets (and to minimise the number that are issued) and to vss as rly reduce industry costs by removing whole swathes of infrastructure, software and business rules. If old methodologies are not retired, and new ones simply added, then costs can only increase. This must not happen.

 

[alistairlees]

Then show it as a PDF on your phone? Problem solved.

Indeed. Or an Apple Boarding pass (the pkpass file that should also be provided) and that is often obtained via the ‘download to Apple wallet’ logo / button. It works perfectly well at airports, where there are no orange mag stripe tickets in sight. Everyone still gets on their flight.

 

[6Gman]

- but who now doesn't have a battery pack?).

What, in this context, is a battery pack?

 

[py_megapixel]

What, in this context, is a battery pack?

It's possible to carry around a separate battery which you can connect a cable to, so that you can charge your phone if the battery runs out, here is a popular example if you want more information. I don't personally use one as I find my phone's own battery adequate for a day of my normal usage, but I believe they are quite popular now

 

[6Gman]

OK, talk me through this.

My wife and I, between us, own two mobile phones and an I-phone. At home we have a laptop and a printer (which is rarely in use).

Now, this is - I accept - unusual, but very often we don't decide where we are going until we get to the station. Or we will be intending to travel to (e.g. Liverpool) only to find there's some disruption so we will go elsewhere instead.

This is simply handled. We arrive at the station, look at the departure screen, go to the booking office and buy our tickets for travel.

How would this work with mobile ticketing. Presumably go onto our i-phone, go to an app (?) or website (?), put in all our details, download a ticket and then be able to travel? Believe me, that would take longer than using the booking office!

And what about travelling separately? Two i-phones needed?

 

[Starmill]

If anyone was looking to move to e-tickets, I would now highly recommend the TransPennine app. They now issue proper e-tickets that can be shown in the app and they’re emailed to you as a PDF, and you get Nectar points back on all tickets.

Indeed. Although it took monts to convince them to do this! They tried to insist on etickets in app only, for a ridiculously long time. NB this wasn't a case of M-ticket confusion.

 

[6Gman]

It's possible to carry around a separate battery which you can connect a cable to, so that you can charge your phone if the battery runs out, here is a popular example if you want more information. I don't personally use one as I find my phone's own battery adequate for a day of my normal usage, but I believe they are quite popular now

Thank you. So more space and weight (12ozs) to carry and I note it takes 10 hours min to recharge. (It ain't going to be left plugged in overnight in this household) So I'd probably end up with both the phone and the battery pack flat knowing me. An orange and white piece of card seems more convenient.

 

[alistairlees]

Buy the tickets from your phone. You don’t need an app. If there are two of your travelling you don’t need a second phone - you can slow both tickets on one phone.

 

[Hadders]

And purchasing tickets on a phone needn't take any longer than going to a booking office.

 

[Starmill]

It's not my worry how much booking offices spend on printer ink, given I am not directly paying for it. I don't do much printing, next to nothing really, but I had to pay something like £30 for a pair of cartridges to print off refund claims for TPE in March, as the forms required colour as well as black. Some people don't even own a printer as they don't have need of one.

I would have just posted the tickets with a hand written letter which explained all of the details that were to go on the form. What were they going to do? Send it all back to you unless you printed it off? I'm sure they would have processed the refund with original tickets enclosed.

 

[Starmill]

And purchasing tickets on a phone needn't take any longer than going to a booking office.

It doesn't need to, certainly. But I can see easily why it would for some people.

 

[py_megapixel]

OK, talk me through this.

My wife and I, between us, own two mobile phones and an I-phone. At home we have a laptop and a printer (which is rarely in use).

Now, this is - I accept - unusual, but very often we don't decide where we are going until we get to the station. Or we will be intending to travel to (e.g. Liverpool) only to find there's some disruption so we will go elsewhere instead.

This is simply handled. We arrive at the station, look at the departure screen, go to the booking office and buy our tickets for travel.

How would this work with mobile ticketing. Presumably go onto our i-phone, go to an app (?) or website (?), put in all our details, download a ticket and then be able to travel? Believe me, that would take longer than using the booking office!

Yes. The mobile ticketing system is very much set up under the assumption that everyone decides where they're going at least a few hours in advance.
In addition you need an Internet connection to buy the tickets and have to key in your card number rather than just tapping it, so it's presumed that you will do it at home beforehand. But once you get used to the procedure it doesn't really take any longer than going to the ticket office.

And what about travelling separately? Two i-phones needed?

Yes unfortunately you would need two smartphones (unless you are both on the same train, then you can download both tickets to one of them). However I assume by Iphone you specifically mean one made by Apple (as they own that brand); you can buy much cheaper smartphones than those. I have a Motorola G6 which I got for £100 (with the cheapest actual Iphone being around £400) and it's excellent. Still a fair bit more expensive than a paper ticket though!

Thank you. So more space and weight (12ozs) to carry and I note it takes 10 hours min to recharge. (It ain't going to be left plugged in overnight in this household) So I'd probably end up with both the phone and the battery pack flat knowing me. An orange and white piece of card seems more convenient.

Despite being a regular smartphone user, I still very much agree with you. Plus you get the added bonus of having a ticket to keep as a souvenir!
(There are smaller, lighter and faster charging battery packs than that but they won't keep your phone running as long)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Although it took monts to convince them to do this! They tried to insist on etickets in app only, for a ridiculously long time. NB this wasn't a case of M-ticket confusion.

Does that mean GWR have fixed that same issue on theirs too, then, as that's also a FirstGroup TOC?

The downside of the GWR app is that it doesn't do m-tickets, so if the flow only allows those it will only do TOD.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. The mobile ticketing system is very much set up under the assumption that everyone decides where they're going at least a few hours in advance.

This isn't true. I've purchased e-tickets and (ugh) m-tickets actually at the station before. I can get a ticket out of a S&B TVM quicker, but if there's a queue it's preferable to that.

I've even plonked myself on a train (at an unbarriered station which was its origin) and purchased one sat in my seat. I know you're not meant to, and I was ready to alight before departure if for any reason it had failed, but it worked and there were no issues.

 

[Starmill]

Does that mean GWR have fixed that same issue on theirs too, then, as that's also a FirstGroup TOC?

The downside of the GWR app is that it doesn't do m-tickets, so if the flow only allows those it will only do TOD.

I think all of First Group companies had a non-standard, anti-customer implementation. Grand Central had a different one too that tied the tickets into their app. I understand that this also is fixed now.

 

[trainophile]

I would have just posted the tickets with a hand written letter which explained all of the details that were to go on the form. What were they going to do? Send it all back to you unless you printed it off? I'm sure they would have processed the refund with original tickets enclosed.

What, all 30-40 sets of them? I had a rather full programme lined up through to end of May, as per usual! Still getting the refunds in dribs and drabs.

 

[_toommm_]

Indeed. Although it took monts to convince them to do this! They tried to insist on etickets in app only, for a ridiculously long time. NB this wasn't a case of M-ticket confusion.

About 6 months ago I'd warn people to steer well clear of the app, but they've turned it round which is quite nice!

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can see why they want to - even with using your card at a ticket window, the booking clerk has to print off and hand you your ticket and receipt which isnt ideal.

Not for much longer

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are the printer cartridges in booking offices any cheaper seeing as they must run out of ink pretty quickly as they would print far more in a week than you would use in a year surely?

Out printers haven't used cartridges for 10-15 years at least, everything is thermal printing