Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

[carlberry]

You have to look for the lights indicating the change of gradient.

The national boundary line on OS maps crosses much closer to the Welsh side than the mid way point so you'd have to take a guess!

 

[AdamWW]

And TfW does have a unit shortage like no other TOC (though Northern isn't far off, with the 195s and 331s in place it's not as bad). With the full timetable pre-COVID, they basically only had enough units to put one single or 2-car unit (or the very odd 3 plus the LHCS) on each diagram (and actually not quite enough for that). That's absolute bare minimum, and isn't enough to have everyone coming back in droves just yet.

It's dead easy to sort out distancing if you're a South East commuter operation with no commuters, and can chuck out 240m 12-car EMU formations for about 12 people, or if you're Avanti and can do the same with 250+ metre Pendolinos. TfW are nowhere near to having this privilege.

No but you'll have to work hard to convince me that a total ban on leisure travel on all services is the only option.

And while yes they could do with more trains, the number who would attempt to travel is a lot less than in areas that routinely turn out 12 coach trains.

 

[AdamWW]

The national boundary line on OS maps crosses much closer to the Welsh side than the mid way point so you'd have to take a guess!

Don't spoil a nice idea...

 

[Bletchleyite]

No but you'll have to work hard to convince me that a total ban on leisure travel on all services is the only option.

It probably isn't, but they may need some other measures, such as compulsory reservations on the long distance or infrequent services and queueing systems as per the Rugby (but 2m distanced) for local services.

 

[AdamWW]

It probably isn't, but they may need some other measures, such as compulsory reservations on the long distance or infrequent services and queueing systems as per the Rugby (but 2m distanced) for local services.

Yes they might, but instead they just seem to have taken the easy way out and told everyone to stay at home, without any acknowledgement this may be a problem for anyone.

 

[trainophile]

Just boarded a literally empty 2-coach 150 at Hereford. One other person boarded so there are two people on it.

We’ve had the announcement welcoming the essential workers! The other person has a large backpack so I don’t think there are any essential workers on board.

 

[Belperpete]

I recently made my first trip by train in nearly four months, to a meeting in Birmingham. I thought I would relate my experiences for those who have not encountered the "TfW experience" of late.

The platform "next train" indicators displayed the message "Essential Travel Only". On most stations, platform benches have cardboard barriers that physically prevent more than two people (one at each end) using each bench seat (not good for families). Asphalt pictograms have been put on the platforms, at each door position, showing you to stand either side of the door while passengers alight.

When you get on the train, you are confronted with this:


Virtually every seat has one of these "keep seat free" tabbards on them. All airline, back-to-back seats have one. In table bays, only one seat is free - except where two table bays are directly opposite, where only one out of the eight seats is free. I didn't count, but there couldn't have been more than about half a dozen seats in each coach free. Note: the tabbards do say (in very small text) that families can sit together.

The rear bay of seats in the rear coach is roped-off for staff use only. Possibly the front bay in the front coach too, as announcements are made that passengers must use the centre doors at each station.

The train was almost empty by normal standards, but passengers were struggling to find "free" seats, and some were having to sit in the "keep free" airline seats.

There was an almost constant litany of warning messages throughout the journey. After departing each station, there was a warning message from TfW in both languages, and a message from the Welsh Government likewise, then the guard gave his take on the situation - including that passengers must only sit in the window seats, NOT in the aisle seats. The "Welcome to essential workers" message certainly carries an undertone of "and if you are not an essential worker, what are you doing here?"

After each station stop, the guard came through and personally advised any passengers obviously on leisure journeys (carrying buckets and spades, for example) that "in Wales, public transport is only for essential travel". He also personally advised passengers that they must have a ticket as ticket inspectors were doing spot checks and would charge a penalty fare if anyone didn't have a ticket. However, he was unable to issue tickets for those who had no means of purchasing a ticket before boarding.

At Shrewsbury, security guards walked the length of the train. They were wearing tabbards stating they were there to ensure social distancing.

Most people were wearing masks, although not yet compulsory. The guard did make an announcement after leaving Welshpool to remind us that masks are compulsory in England.

So, while leisure journeys may not be illegal on TfW services, you would certainly need some brass-neck to make one.

 

[nedchester]

I recently made my first trip by train in nearly four months, to a meeting in Birmingham. I thought I would relate my experiences for those who have not encountered the "TfW experience" of late.

The platform "next train" indicators displayed the message "Essential Travel Only". On most stations, platform benches have cardboard barriers that physically prevent more than two people (one at each end) using each bench seat (not good for families). Asphalt pictograms have been put on the platforms, at each door position, showing you to stand either side of the door while passengers alight.

When you get on the train, you are confronted with this:
View attachment 81087

Virtually every seat has one of these "keep seat free" tabbards on them. All airline, back-to-back seats have one. In table bays, only one seat is free - except where two table bays are directly opposite, where only one out of the eight seats is free. I didn't count, but there couldn't have been more than about half a dozen seats in each coach free. Note: the tabbards do say (in very small text) that families can sit together.

The rear bay of seats in the rear coach is roped-off for staff use only. Possibly the front bay in the front coach too, as announcements are made that passengers must use the centre doors at each station.

The train was almost empty by normal standards, but passengers were struggling to find "free" seats, and some were having to sit in the "keep free" airline seats.

There was an almost constant litany of warning messages throughout the journey. After departing each station, there was a warning message from TfW in both languages, and a message from the Welsh Government likewise, then the guard gave his take on the situation - including that passengers must only sit in the window seats, NOT in the aisle seats. The "Welcome to essential workers" message certainly carries an undertone of "and if you are not an essential worker, what are you doing here?"

After each station stop, the guard came through and personally advised any passengers obviously on leisure journeys (carrying buckets and spades, for example) that "in Wales, public transport is only for essential travel". He also personally advised passengers that they must have a ticket as ticket inspectors were doing spot checks and would charge a penalty fare if anyone didn't have a ticket. However, he was unable to issue tickets for those who had no means of purchasing a ticket before boarding.

At Shrewsbury, security guards walked the length of the train. They were wearing tabbards stating they were there to ensure social distancing.

Most people were wearing masks, although not yet compulsory. The guard did make an announcement after leaving Welshpool to remind us that masks are compulsory in England.

So, while leisure journeys may not be illegal on TfW services, you would certainly need some brass-neck to make one.

If it's not illegal then I would be happy to challenge them on that if I was living in Wales.

 

[AdamWW]

I recently made my first trip by train in nearly four months, to a meeting in Birmingham. I thought I would relate my experiences for those who have not encountered the "TfW experience" of late.

The platform "next train" indicators displayed the message "Essential Travel Only". On most stations, platform benches have cardboard barriers that physically prevent more than two people (one at each end) using each bench seat (not good for families). Asphalt pictograms have been put on the platforms, at each door position, showing you to stand either side of the door while passengers alight.

When you get on the train, you are confronted with this:
View attachment 81087

Virtually every seat has one of these "keep seat free" tabbards on them. All airline, back-to-back seats have one. In table bays, only one seat is free - except where two table bays are directly opposite, where only one out of the eight seats is free. I didn't count, but there couldn't have been more than about half a dozen seats in each coach free. Note: the tabbards do say (in very small text) that families can sit together.

The rear bay of seats in the rear coach is roped-off for staff use only. Possibly the front bay in the front coach too, as announcements are made that passengers must use the centre doors at each station.

The train was almost empty by normal standards, but passengers were struggling to find "free" seats, and some were having to sit in the "keep free" airline seats.

There was an almost constant litany of warning messages throughout the journey. After departing each station, there was a warning message from TfW in both languages, and a message from the Welsh Government likewise, then the guard gave his take on the situation - including that passengers must only sit in the window seats, NOT in the aisle seats. The "Welcome to essential workers" message certainly carries an undertone of "and if you are not an essential worker, what are you doing here?"

After each station stop, the guard came through and personally advised any passengers obviously on leisure journeys (carrying buckets and spades, for example) that "in Wales, public transport is only for essential travel". He also personally advised passengers that they must have a ticket as ticket inspectors were doing spot checks and would charge a penalty fare if anyone didn't have a ticket. However, he was unable to issue tickets for those who had no means of purchasing a ticket before boarding.

At Shrewsbury, security guards walked the length of the train. They were wearing tabbards stating they were there to ensure social distancing.

Most people were wearing masks, although not yet compulsory. The guard did make an announcement after leaving Welshpool to remind us that masks are compulsory in England.

So, while leisure journeys may not be illegal on TfW services, you would certainly need some brass-neck to make one.

That's pretty hard core.

Round here (South Wales) the trains I've been on have had window seats available in alternate rows.

(The one I was on his morning had all window seats bar one - I don't know how official that was).

I think I would have asked the guard which law I was breaking, if challenged like that.

I know I keep banging on about this, but it would be really, really, nice to see some kind of acknowledgement from TFW Rail and the government that the essential travel only message is actually a bit of an imposition on people without cars, and maybe even that when it's over they'll find some way of making it up to them (yes, in my dreams, I know).

 

[Belperpete]

I know I keep banging on about this, but it would be really, really, nice to see some kind of acknowledgement from TFW Rail and the government that the essential travel only message is actually a bit of an imposition on people without cars, and maybe even that when it's over they'll find some way of making it up to them (yes, in my dreams, I know).

Like they are going to make it up to all those essential workers who have had to carry on working while most of the country has been on a four-month break?

 

[Belperpete]

If it's not illegal then I would be happy to challenge them on that if I was living in Wales.

There is no point in confronting the staff, who are only carrying out company policy as per government guidance.

 

[nedchester]

There is no point in confronting the staff, who are only carrying out company policy as per government guidance.

Well if the staff confronted me, my answer would be to politely point out that the purpose of my journey is none of their business. We do not live in North Korea and the law says you can travel.

 

[Belperpete]

One thing that I forgot to mention: I tried to book my ticket on-line in order to get reservations on my selected trains, in the hope that this might give me some "right" to occupy those seats. However, while seat reservations are available on Cambrian services in normal times, they seem to be disabled now. Also, the only ticket collection options available (I was using the TfW web-site) were m-ticket and collect-at-station. As the TfW app is not compatible with my Android 4.? phone, and I was travelling from a station with no ticketing facilities, neither was applicable. So I gave up with trying to book on-line.

 

[Belperpete]

Well if the staff confronted me, my answer would be to politely point out that the purpose of my journey is none of their business. We do not live in North Korea and the law says you can travel.

At the moment. If too many people start getting confrontational with staff properly going about their duties, they may change it.

 

[PHILIPE]

One thing that I forgot to mention: I tried to book my ticket on-line in order to get reservations on my selected trains, in the hope that this might give me some "right" to occupy those seats. However, while seat reservations are available on Cambrian services in normal times, they seem to be disabled now. Also, the only ticket collection options available (I was using the TfW web-site) were m-ticket and collect-at-station. As the TfW app is not compatible with my Android 4.? phone, and I was travelling from a station with no ticketing facilities, neither was applicable. So I gave up with trying to book on-line.

TFW say that reservations are currently suspended. They have many Twitter enquiries on the matter.

 

[Belperpete]

Well if the staff confronted me, my answer would be to politely point out that the purpose of my journey is none of their business. We do not live in North Korea and the law says you can travel.

Just to be clear: nobody was asked to explain why they were travelling. The guard merely pointed out politely what the government guidance was to those who were clearly breaching it.

 

[yorkie]

At the moment. If too many people start getting confrontational with staff properly going about their duties, they may change it.

Are you suggesting they could impose "essential travel" on all journeys, of any mode, within Wales?

Ore you suggesting they could discriminate against non-car owners by making the law require non-essential journeys be made by modes other than public transport?

Are you suggesting either of these outcomes is actually either feasible or desirable?

...So I gave up with trying to book on-line.

What was the journey? Are e-tickets not available?

 

[duncanp]

Virtually every seat has one of these "keep seat free" tabbards on them.

Fortunately those tabards are quite easy to remove and stuff down the side if you want to sit on one of those seats.

There is no logic as to which seats are free and which ones aren't. On a journey from Church Stretton to Shrewsbury last Saturday one of the only "free" seats was right behind two people sitting in a bay of 4, just like the seat in the second row on the left in your photo. The seat behind directly behind it was a Cadwch y sedd yn wag seat, but anyone sitting there would be more socially distant than if they sit in the "free" seat. So I sat in the Cadwch y sedd yn wag seat for the 15 minute journey, and no-one said anything.

Just to be clear: nobody was asked to explain why they were travelling. The guard merely pointed out politely what the government guidance was to those who were clearly breaching it.

This is clearly trying to bully and intimidate people who are legitimately travelling on a leisure journey in England, let alone Wales. There is a difference between government guidance and the law, and the problem seems to be that too many people think that the latter is the former.

Don't even get me started on masks.

 

[PHILIPE]

A case today of an essential traveller going for a medical appointment complaining to Twitter that he couldn't board a train due to people going to Barry Island

TFW Twitter

Trying to get home from work (essential journey) for my sons doctors appointment and can’t get on my train due to people heading to the beach. Your staff didn’t care about my situation. Why aren’t you turning people away? Where do I send my taxi receipt?

 

[yorkie]

A case today of an essential traveller going for a medical appointment complaining to Twitter that he couldn't board a train due to people going to Barry Island

I can't find this; you'll need to provide a link and quote. Why were they unable to board; were they prevented from travelling?

 

[AdamWW]

Well this is interesting.

TFW Rail have a very useful looking capacity checker - helpful for anyone who wants to give some money to TFW so they can use some of the rather large quantities of spare capacity around at the moment for a non-essential trip.

The only thing is that even though I thought I'd read through all the travel advice on their web site, I only just found out about if from a comment on Twitter...

Though having had a look on one line, it seems to bear only a passing resemblance to the actual timetable...

 

[Bikeman78]

I recently made my first trip by train in nearly four months, to a meeting in Birmingham. I thought I would relate my experiences for those who have not encountered the "TfW experience" of late.

The platform "next train" indicators displayed the message "Essential Travel Only". On most stations, platform benches have cardboard barriers that physically prevent more than two people (one at each end) using each bench seat (not good for families). Asphalt pictograms have been put on the platforms, at each door position, showing you to stand either side of the door while passengers alight.

When you get on the train, you are confronted with this:
View attachment 81087



After each station stop, the guard came through and personally advised any passengers obviously on leisure journeys (carrying buckets and spades, for example) that "in Wales, public transport is only for essential travel". He also personally advised passengers that they must have a ticket as ticket inspectors were doing spot checks and would charge a penalty fare if anyone didn't have a ticket. However, he was unable to issue tickets for those who had no means of purchasing a ticket before boarding.

At Shrewsbury, security guards walked the length of the train. They were wearing tabbards stating they were there to ensure social distancing.

So, while leisure journeys may not be illegal on TfW services, you would certainly need some brass-neck to make one.

Those security people would have a tough time on the underground. Every with today's tiny loadings it's usually impossible to stay two metres apart. Also what is the point in roping off the rear doors to protect the guard if they are going to wander through the train anyway?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

He also personally advised passengers that they must have a ticket as ticket inspectors were doing spot checks and would charge a penalty fare if anyone didn't have a ticket.

Interesting; I didn't realise that TfW had chosen this pandemic as the right moment for silently introducing Penalty Fares west of Shrewsbury - and to stations without ticketing facilities at that!

Or, and I know this seems utterly outlandish, but perhaps the guard was talking a load of bovine excrement. Not sure which theory to believe

All I can say is, I'm very glad I don't live under the Welsh Government's dictatorship...

 

[Parallel]

I just find it bonkers that you can sit virtually anywhere on a GWR IET between Newport and Swansea, but this is the situation on TfW between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. Says to me it’s more about politics than anything else.

I’m travelling to Shrewsbury tomorrow but I think I might use West Midlands Railway...

 

[AdamWW]

I just find it bonkers that you can sit virtually anywhere on a GWR IET between Newport and Swansea, but this is the situation on TfW between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. Says to me it’s more about politics than anything else.

I’m travelling to Shrewsbury tomorrow but I think I might use West Midlands Railway...

It does seem odd, because the justification for the very limited capacity on TFW Rail is that they have to abide by the Welsh law that says passengers have to be kept 2 m apart at all times.

So that should apply to a GWR train this side of the Severn Tunnel.

I believe National Express coaches are running with window seats available only but all rows - so they would seem to be operating illegally if they are running into Wales.

Except that the law isn't completely black-and-white on the 2 m thing (otherwise taxis, which are specifically named as being included, would have a bit of a problem), so there seem to be different interpretations being applied.

 

[Dai Corner]

It does seem odd, because the justification for the very limited capacity on TFW Rail is that they have to abide by the Welsh law that says passengers have to be kept 2 m apart at all times.

So that should apply to a GWR train this side of the Severn Tunnel.

I believe National Express coaches are running with window seats available only but all rows - so they would seem to be operating illegally if they are running into Wales.

Except that the law isn't completely black-and-white on the 2 m thing (otherwise taxis, which are specifically named as being included, would have a bit of a problem), so there seem to be different interpretations being applied.

Operators only have to take 'reasonable measures' to maintain the 2m distance. National Express, if challenged, would probably argue that limiting the number of passengers on a coach sufficiently would make the fares unaffordable and/or the service uneconomic to run and is therefore an 'unreasonable' measure.

'English' train operators are in a different position in that they are currently being paid a management fee by the UK Government who are taking the revenue risk. It matters little to them whether they are running empty trains or crush-loaded ones. I'm not sure whether the same applies to TfW Rail Services?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Operators only have to take 'reasonable measures' to maintain the 2m distance. National Express, if challenged, would probably argue that limiting the number of passengers on a coach sufficiently would make the fares unaffordable and/or the service uneconomic to run and is therefore an 'unreasonable' measure.

'English' train operators are in a different position in that they are currently being paid a management fee by the UK Government who are taking the revenue risk. It matters little to them whether they are running empty trains or crush-loaded ones. I'm not sure whether the same applies to TfW Rail Services?

I think the point is rather more that the Welsh Regulations apply in Wales, and Wales only, regardless of where the operator is based. Most companies seem to be interpreting the Regulations as if they were Chicago Convention style - i.e. based on where the operator is based. But that's simply not the case.

 

[AdamWW]

I think the point is rather more that the Welsh Regulations apply in Wales, and Wales only, regardless of where the operator is based. Most companies seem to be interpreting the Regulations as if they were Chicago Convention style - i.e. based on where the operator is based. But that's simply not the case.

Quite. And it would be rather difficult to do otherwise.

But it does show that the TFW Rail approach isn't - as has been suggested - an absolute legal requirement. (Unless GWR are breaking the law but getting away with it).

 

[duncanp]

I just find it bonkers that you can sit virtually anywhere on a GWR IET between Newport and Swansea, but this is the situation on TfW between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. Says to me it’s more about politics than anything else.

I’m travelling to Shrewsbury tomorrow but I think I might use West Midlands Railway...

I have travelled on TfW between Birmingham and Shrewsbury several times since the rules in England were relaxed, the most recent being last Saturday.

No-one comes through the carriage to check whether you are sitting in one of the Cadwch y sedd yn wag seats, and I several people, apart from myself sitting in one of them.

If there is a TfW train running at the time you are travelling, then go for it, as they are generally quicker than West Midlands Trains.

I am going to Welshpool in the next couple of weeks to walk a section of the Offa's Dyke Path, and I am going to ignore what that there Mr Drakeford says about public tranport in Wales being for non essential journeys and key workers only. (Just like all those people travelling between Cardiff and Barry Island really)

 

[trainophile]

Think they are taking this a bit too far!

(Photo shows one of the tip-up seats next to an exit door bearing the "leave this seat free" signage.)