3tph on North Downs Line

[Nicholas Lewis]

North Camp and Blackwater are railheads in the sense that many passengers do not live in the immediate vicinity. Both have excellent road links and good parking provision. Blackwater also has decent bus links while North Camp is a popular interchange for passengers going to Aldershot, Farnham and Alton via Ash Vale (from regular experience I think the number of interchanges reported in the station usage stats is a significant underestimate).

Farnborough North however will continue to be a backwater, excepting the student traffic, as road access is poor and parking provision non-existent.

You'd think Surrey and Berkshire CC's would collaborate to support improvements along this stretch as there must plenty of pent up demand given how busy the roads are in this area.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I was aware there is an 11 minute headway but wasn't sure where. How likely is it that network rail actually resignal it all thou?

I remember reading a proposal from Surrey council to get 3tph and reduce headway on this line but it concluded that it costs loads to do it so I thought it had been shelved.



North camp is not useful for much unless you live there. That said it's a really cute little station!

This section is full track circuit block already so it shouldn't be that difficult to create an intermediate section which was done without too much drama between Brighton and Lewes a few years back

 

[JonathanH]

This section is full track circuit block already so it shouldn't be that difficult to create an intermediate section which was done without too much drama between Brighton and Lewes a few years back

When is Wokingham signal box due for decommissioning / transfer?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

When is Wokingham signal box due for decommissioning / transfer?

Not sure whether it will be part of Feltham resignalling scheme which would be sensible opportunity to accommodate this section as it will need full lineside re-equipment i would imagine given the vintage.

 

[infobleep]

INorth camp is not useful for much unless you live there. That said it's a really cute little station!

It's very useful if you need to get to Ash Vale in order to get to places like Farnham.

Whilst there are now direct trains from Guildford to Farnham on Mondays to Saturdays, there are still times when the recommended route between the Guildford to Farnham or the reverse is via a walk from North Camp to Ash Vale. I've not done the walk myself.

 

[The Ham]

North Camp and Blackwater are railheads in the sense that many passengers do not live in the immediate vicinity. Both have excellent road links and good parking provision. Blackwater also has decent bus links while North Camp is a popular interchange for passengers going to Aldershot, Farnham and Alton via Ash Vale (from regular experience I think the number of interchanges reported in the station usage stats is a significant underestimate).

Farnborough North however will continue to be a backwater, excepting the student traffic, as road access is poor and parking provision non-existent.

There's a lot of non student traffic as well, not as much certainly but to write it off as not being as important just due to that extra passenger demand is to miss a few key bus of information.

Firstly it gets 1tph for much of the day, which means that many people will opt for either of the other two stations to get where they are heading to.

Whilst road access is poor generally of you live very fast away from it they you'll likely use the other stations, this means that there's quite significant pedestrian flows to and from the station.

If you are heading to some of the other stations on the SWML (other than Farnborough and Basingstoke) it can be better to walk or cycle across Farnborough to interchange between the two line rather than interchange at Basingstoke.

 

[RichT54]

If you are heading to some of the other stations on the SWML (other than Farnborough and Basingstoke) it can be better to walk or cycle across Farnborough to interchange between the two line rather than interchange at Basingstoke.

Indeed, when I needed to travel from Sandhurst to Hook in Hampshire a couple of years ago, the GWR booking website would only show me tickets via Farnborough North, even though it included an estimated 24 minute walk to Farnborough Main. In contrast, the National Rail Enquiries website did include tickets going via Reading and Basingstoke.

I did intend to try the Farnborough route, but in the event the Redhill train was delayed and then cancelled for minor stations, so I ended up going via Reading anyway.

 

[Deepgreen]

I notice top priority for station improvement at Redhill was the need to install a bright yellow railing along the face of the old bay platform located opposite platform 3. As if anybody ever fell off the platform without the bright yellow railing.
But I digress. The need to fit the Victoria to Reigate into the existing 2 tph service already delays Thameslink services through platform 3, the Reigate Southern service blocking the platform as it waits for the GWR service to Reading to clear through Reigate.
Reigate lacks a bay platform so the terminating Victoria service cannot leave Redhill or risks blocking the GWR service to Reading.
I do wonder whether the Victoria to Reigate should be rerouted to Tonbridge with the 3 car shuttle operating between Redhill and Reigate instead giving greater flexibility between the 3 tph GWR service.

Exactly - why are people now so much more likely to stray here? What a nonsense. The long-term plan for Reigate includes a 12 car bay road, but that's probably now in CP7, or even later.

 

[Minstral25]

Exactly - why are people now so much more likely to stray here? What a nonsense. The long-term plan for Reigate includes a 12 car bay road, but that's probably now in CP7, or even later.

From what I heard this week everyone is very keen on Reigate P3 (GTR/NR etc) so funding is only issue now. It's a pre-requisite of the CARS scheme in Croydon as well and would have helped with Gatwick rebuild.

 

[infobleep]

I appreciate COVID-19 has changed timetables for now but is there any update on when 3 trains might run?

I was reminded of this when I accidentally got on the 16:14 Guildford to Reading, which departs platform 8, instead of the 16:13 Guildford lto Redhill, which departs platform 5. Most trains to Redhill depart platform 8 and I saw a train in form the road so headed to that platform got on board.

Having accidentally done this, I now have to wait at Guildford for 13 minutes so a non-existent train can overtake. I personally think it would have made sense to keep the December 2019 timetable beyond May but I speak as a layman.

My eventual destination is actually Eastbourne.

 

[JN114]

I appreciate COVID-19 has changed timetables for now but is there any update on when 3 trains might run?

Soon - hopefully some time before the December TT change. There’s a date being worked towards but it’s TBC at the moment.

Brought forward because of inadequate capacity on Turbos with social distancing applied.

 

[infobleep]

Soon - hopefully some time before the December TT change. There’s a date being worked towards but it’s TBC at the moment.

Brought forward because of inadequate capacity on Turbos with social distancing applied.

Thanks. That's great news. I'm surprised they are able to bring it forward but great news if they do.

I can understand why thy might not want to release a precise date.

I think I've managed to keep my social distance so far on the North Downs Line but not when walking through the train.

Of course the hope is the trains will get more busy as time goes on.

 

[JonathanH]

Soon - hopefully some time before the December TT change. There’s a date being worked towards but it’s TBC at the moment.

Brought forward because of inadequate capacity on Turbos with social distancing applied.

How is that achieved if the original reason for not implementing the 3tph was because there aren't enough Turbos awaiting the arrival of the 769s?

Given 3tph seemed to be all about Gatwick with the extra train running fast from Wokingham to Guildford and there are obvious reasons for traffic to Gatwick to be lower than expected before March 2020, does the 3tph timetable provide capacity between the stations where it is actually needed?

Is one way of providing the right number of units simply to not run the trains south of Redhill?

 

[JN114]

How is that achieved if the original reason for not implementing the 3tph was because there aren't enough Turbos awaiting the arrival of the 769s?

Given 3tph seemed to be all about Gatwick with the extra train running fast from Wokingham to Guildford and there are obvious reasons for traffic to Gatwick to be lower than expected before March 2020, does the 3tph timetable provide capacity between the stations where it is actually needed?

Is one way of providing the right number of units simply to not run the trains south of Redhill?

I didn't study the previous 3tph in any great detail as it was never concrete/confirmed it was coming in; but I don't believe this is anything like the timetable that made it onto RTT previously. The proposed TT has regular trains to Gatwick throughout the day, so that's not how the additional units required are generated.

 

[JonathanH]

I didn't study the previous 3tph in any great detail as it was never concrete/confirmed it was coming in; but I don't believe this is anything like the timetable that made it onto RTT previously. The proposed TT has regular trains to Gatwick throughout the day, so that's not how the additional units required are generated.

The timetable on RTT for May 2020 had a basic pattern of xx01 Reading to Gatwick, xx20 Reading to Redhill and xx36 Reading to Gatwick with the xx36 overtaking the xx20 at Guildford. This appears to be why the stoppers moved from xx55ish to xx20 in May 2020. Peaks were different.

'Clarence Yard' said in January 2020 in message 111 of this thread that:

To run the 3tph you need 10 units and you can't do all of it with the existing resource base - I have the diagrams.

Even if the first 769 arrives in May, they won't start passenger service until the Autumn, at the earliest. The initial deliveries are currently programmed to be strung out over quite a few months.

So, all I was wondering was whether to provide 3tph in the short term without the 769s one possible approach could be to abandon the Redhill to Gatwick stretch, restoring it once the 769s were available.

 

[infobleep]

The timetable on RTT for May 2020 had a basic pattern of xx01 Reading to Gatwick, xx20 Reading to Redhill and xx36 Reading to Gatwick with the xx36 overtaking the xx20 at Guildford. This appears to be why the stoppers moved from xx55ish to xx20 in May 2020. Peaks were different.

'Clarence Yard' said in January 2020 in message 111 of this thread that:


So, all I was wondering was whether to provide 3tph in the short term without the 769s one possible approach could be to abandon the Redhill to Gatwick stretch, restoring it once the 769s were available.

At the moment some trains, such as the 9:03 Reading to Redhill service are waiting at Redhill rather than running to Gatwick Airport, as they would do normally.

So currently there are trains running that do have time to go to Gatwick Airport and return but don't. However, not all trains are like this. The Sunday 20:53 fast service arrival from Reading forms the 21:20 stopping service from Redhill back to Reading, rather than running to Gatwick Airport as it usually would.

If the timetable isto be rewritten again and not all stopping services will have trains overtaking them, would it be possible to enable those not being overtaken to not have to wait at Guildford for so long?

I was on a waiting train yesterday and there was no announcement to say we'd be waiting for 13 minutes (actually less given we were running slightly late). Ir does at least give the driver and maybe the guard a breather.

 

[Minstral25]

If there is to be a rewrite it seems pointless having 2tph fast service from Reading to Gatwick as usage would be low and probably will be for some time.

A Short term solution to solve Social Distancing would be to run 2tph Reading to Redhill calling at all stations (or perhaps with the usual skip stopping alternate services at more remote stations) to cater for the local usage.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is high college student useage between Redhil/Reigate/Dorking between 8-930 and 1530-16300 so they will need to reinforce the service in these periods if they are to maintain social distancing. This could probably be done with using the Tonbridge unit to do a rounder between journeys rather than reinforce the N.Downs GWR service which seems more under pressure west of Guildford in my experience of using it this week. Actually i was surprised on loadings giving the Thameslink service is loading lightly from surrounding stations.

 

[Roast Veg]

There is high college student useage between Redhil/Reigate/Dorking between 8-930 and 1530-16300 so they will need to reinforce the service in these periods if they are to maintain social distancing. This could probably be done with using the Tonbridge unit to do a rounder between journeys rather than reinforce the N.Downs GWR service which seems more under pressure west of Guildford in my experience of using it this week. Actually i was surprised on loadings giving the Thameslink service is loading lightly from surrounding stations.

A rounder to Reigate presumably? The Tonbridge unit can't go any further since the juice runs out there. I'm also not sure if the platforming at Redhill would permit it.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is high college student useage between Redhil/Reigate/Dorking between 8-930 and 1530-16300 so they will need to reinforce the service in these periods if they are to maintain social distancing. This could probably be done with using the Tonbridge unit to do a rounder between journeys rather than reinforce the N.Downs GWR service which seems more under pressure west of Guildford in my experience of using it this week. Actually i was surprised on loadings giving the Thameslink service is loading lightly from surrounding stations.

Through the reduced timetable, the NDL has loaded the best of all GWR services. Although there’s no guarantee the college traffic will be back.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Through the reduced timetable, the NDL has loaded the best of all GWR services. Although there’s no guarantee the college traffic will be back.

Nothings guaranteed but that's the intention and the railway needs to get better at being ready and responsive to demand as that equals income

 

[infobleep]

Through the reduced timetable, the NDL has loaded the best of all GWR services. Although there’s no guarantee the college traffic will be back.

Do you mean it's been the most popular of their services? Is that because it's reduced in number compared to normal?

I do look forward to the day it's possible for them to run to Gatwick Airport 7 days a week and not just Sunday evening but that's a different subject to running 3 trains an hour, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Minstral25]

There is high college student useage between Redhil/Reigate/Dorking between 8-930 and 1530-16300 so they will need to reinforce the service in these periods if they are to maintain social distancing. This could probably be done with using the Tonbridge unit to do a rounder between journeys rather than reinforce the N.Downs GWR service which seems more under pressure west of Guildford in my experience of using it this week. Actually i was surprised on loadings giving the Thameslink service is loading lightly from surrounding stations.

There is no need for the Tonbridge unit to be brought in as Southern run a half hourly service to Reigate (where one of the main colleges is) and that would be the limit for the Tonbridge unit as power runs out there.

Through the reduced timetable, the NDL has loaded the best of all GWR services. Although there’s no guarantee the college traffic will be back.

It would be interesting to know whether the faster trains or the slower stopping service would load better. There is a sneaking thought locally that the stoppers do better as they are more useful for many more journeys and increasing them rather than the fasts would be better for long term usage as a lot of pent up demand at local stations which are served by less than one train per hour

Do you mean it's been the most popular of their services? Is that because it's reduced in number compared to normal?

I do look forward to the day it's possible for them to run to Gatwick Airport 7 days a week and not just Sunday evening but that's a different subject to running 3 trains an hour, so I'll leave it there.

There are 4 Thameslink trains per hour between Redhill and Gatwick so no great need for extension to Gatwick by GWR trains - probably adds 10-15 minutes max to journey time. And currently usage is probably very low.

Long term the whole link needs to be questioned when you can use Crossrail from Reading to Farringdon and then Thameslink to Gatwick will only take about 20 minutes longer - faster overall if you change at Paddington (which is where your fast service that you change from at Reading will continue to).

When I say questioned I mean changing the purpose from a Fast Reading to Gatwick link to a more regional connectivity basis to relieve the M25, which could mean a very different pattern of service from the 3tph plan.

 

[Bald Rick]

The 3tph is all about serving Gatwick, with key revenue from Dorking, Guildford, the Blackwater Valley and Reading. I agree that the Crossrail / Thameslink connection will alter the equation for passengers from Reading and further west, but it will still be longer, and I suspect more expensive. But that doesn’t change the equation for the majority of the traffic east of Reading.

It’s fair to say that the demand for Gatwick may not be so strong for the next few years.

 

[Minstral25]

The 3tph is all about serving Gatwick, with key revenue from Dorking, Guildford, the Blackwater Valley and Reading. I agree that the Crossrail / Thameslink connection will alter the equation for passengers from Reading and further west, but it will still be longer, and I suspect more expensive. But that doesn’t change the equation for the majority of the traffic east of Reading.

It’s fair to say that the demand for Gatwick may not be so strong for the next few years.

For Reading passengers: Fast Train to Paddington (which many passengers will already be on) takes 25 minutes, Paddington to Farringdon 8 mins, and Farringdon to Gatwick 40 mins. Total travel 73 minutes plus 5 min for each transfer say 83 minutes total. Reading to Gatwick is 80 minutes on train plus 5 mins for transfer at Reading - 85 minutes. Not really a lot in it, especially when there will be a lot more services available via London even at 2tph RDG to GTW?

So maybe North Downs needs a new business case and making it the East/West connection for places just South of London may be it?? Dorking and Guildford/Blackwater Valley would still have good connections in this case. Would be good to know split of passenger numbers to understand the lines potential.

 

[JamesRowden]

I used the North Downs Line many times while living in Reading but never to travel to a station on the line. My journeys were to/from Petersfield (via Guildford), Pulborough (via Gatwick), Shoreham by Sea (via Gatwick) , Portslade (via Gatwick), Hastings (via Gatwick) and Battle (via Redhill and Tonbridge). I also used it for Battle to Winchester (via Tonbridge, Redhill, Guildford and Woking). Fast and frequent services between Reading, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick are very useful for non-London journeys (particularly during the peak).

 

[Bald Rick]

For Reading passengers: Fast Train to Paddington (which many passengers will already be on) takes 25 minutes, Paddington to Farringdon 8 mins, and Farringdon to Gatwick 40 mins. Total travel 73 minutes plus 5 min for each transfer say 83 minutes total. Reading to Gatwick is 80 minutes on train plus 5 mins for transfer at Reading - 85 minutes. Not really a lot in it, especially when there will be a lot more services available via London even at 2tph RDG to GTW?

So maybe North Downs needs a new business case and making it the East/West connection for places just South of London may be it?? Dorking and Guildford/Blackwater Valley would still have good connections in this case. Would be good to know split of passenger numbers to understand the lines potential.

I think 5 minutes for each transfer is a little ambitious, particularly at Farringdon where the service to Gatwick will only ever be a maximum of 10 trains an hour at Uneven intervals. And 4 of those trains are on the slow lines south of Croydon and slower.

 

[Minstral25]

I think 5 minutes for each transfer is a little ambitious, particularly at Farringdon where the service to Gatwick will only ever be a maximum of 10 trains an hour at Uneven intervals. And 4 of those trains are on the slow lines south of Croydon and slower.

You are right the split of fast trains from Farringdon are 10/20 gaps except peaks. The Slows are pointless as they are overtaken as they go via Redhill route. However I tried to average times and the fasts only take 34 or 37 minutes (not 40 as I said) - so what you save in journey time you get extra connection time. I'd also say I only put a 5 minute connection to North Downs and that for similar reasons could be up to 30 minutes at Reading depending on your time of arrival.

In any case the point is the times have very little difference and only fares will drive people to North Downs. That is not good for a business case.

 

[JamesRowden]

You are right the split of fast trains from Farringdon are 10/20 gaps except peaks. The Slows are pointless as they are overtaken as they go via Redhill route. However I tried to average times and the fasts only take 34 or 37 minutes (not 40 as I said) - so what you save in journey time you get extra connection time. I'd also say I only put a 5 minute connection to North Downs and that for similar reasons could be up to 30 minutes at Reading depending on your time of arrival.

In any case the point is the times have very little difference and only fares will drive people to North Downs. That is not good for a business case.

Is your suggestion to make North Downs Line Peak tickets more expensive, or via London Peak tickets cheaper?

 

[JonathanH]

It would be interesting to know whether the faster trains or the slower stopping service would load better. There is a sneaking thought locally that the stoppers do better as they are more useful for many more journeys and increasing them rather than the fasts would be better for long term usage as a lot of pent up demand at local stations which are served by less than one train per hour

While there have been important flows into Reading and Guildford from the Blackwater Valley on the stopping services in the peaks, at almost all times of the daye, there is a clear preference for the faster trains on the route. I commuted from Reading to Reigate for twelve years, admittedly stopping in 2012. It was clear that east of Guildford, the Gatwick trains loaded substantially better than the ones which started at Redhill.

The numbers of people at Chilworth, Gomshall and Betchworth are not surpressed by the timetable. In the 3tph timetable, everything stopped at Guildford, Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill. Is the 'sneaking thought locally' around the idea that more people would use a service with more evenly spaced timing at the main stations?

Living in Reigate, if I want to travel to Reading or further west, I would prefer to do so on a train that takes 60 minutes rather than one which takes 80.

There are 4 Thameslink trains per hour between Redhill and Gatwick so no great need for extension to Gatwick by GWR trains - probably adds 10-15 minutes max to journey time. And currently usage is probably very low.

I don't think that recognises the kind of passengers who use this route off-peak. It isn't just Gatwick - my impression is that there is a fairly sizeable flow of long-distance leisure passengers from GWR destinations to places beyond Gatwick. Changing at Redhill isn't great (and is terrible when there are a lot of passengers with suitcases who need to use two lifts).

Long term the whole link needs to be questioned when you can use Crossrail from Reading to Farringdon and then Thameslink to Gatwick will only take about 20 minutes longer - faster overall if you change at Paddington (which is where your fast service that you change from at Reading will continue to).

Really? That is still 20 minutes longer and the fares via London are much more expensive.

When I say questioned I mean changing the purpose from a Fast Reading to Gatwick link to a more regional connectivity basis to relieve the M25, which could mean a very different pattern of service from the 3tph plan.

The (off-peak) journey time from Reading to Reigate is pretty much 60 minutes by car and 60 minutes by train. While the M25 has issues on the Surrey stretch clockwise in the morning and the M3 is busy towards its junction with the M25, I don't see what can really be done to make the route more competitive other than on the line of route. Putting more stops in won't help.

Even if we took the example of Dorking to Reigate which is a materially quicker journey on the train than on the A25, people appear not to be attracted to using the train over this kind of distance.