ECML services terminating at Glasgow Queen Street

[Dr Hoo]

Remember that dividing revenue between routes (or more strictly, service codes) was just what the famous BR ORCATS system was designed for. Train-specific APEX tickets obviously didn't need to be divided up.

With both East Coast and West Coast offering a broadly two-hourly service, leaving Glasgow on alternate hours and taking about the same time (i.e. not 'overtaken') it was fairly obvious that Glasgow-London revenue would get split about 50/50 in logic terms, regardless of whether a larger proportion actually travelled on the 'traditional' croute.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It had to use Platform 7.

There was a most unfortunate incident when a vulnerable passenger in a wheelchair was effectively trapped in the rear coach when an HST arrived at Glasgow Queen Street. There was no alternative but to take them back out. Sadly they were de-trained at Falkirk High, which didn't have wheelchair access to the Glasgow-bound platform in those days, so were effectively 'trapped' there again on their own. Having basically fallen through the cracks of the customer care system the poor passenger actually died during the experience.

Very sad. But no social media outrage in those far-off BR days.

 

[trebor79]

Currently, trains from London King's Cross go to Glasgow Central if they are extended from Edinburgh but was it always thus?

Did they ever try using Queen Street instead? What's the story behind the extensions going to one over the other?

Thanks.

Yes, in the 80s there was a service to London Kings Cross from Glasgow Queen St in the morning and a return from London Kings Cross in the evening. On the Glasgow - Edinburgh stretch they ran in the path of a 47/7 push pull set.

Yep. Remember staying out late as a 7 year old to spot it coming through Lenzie. On both occasions I saw it, it was travelling very slowly for some reason, barely more than walking pace.
It was a very exotic train for us!

 

[Mag_seven]

Yep. Remember staying out late as a 7 year old to spot it coming through Lenzie. On both occasions I saw it, it was travelling very slowly for some reason, barely more than walking pace.
It was a very exotic train for us!

I was at uni at the time and if I couldn't be bothered studying of an evening I would take a 47/7 across to Edinburgh Waverley and then the HST back to Queen St. I always remember the HST generally was empty from Edinburgh and there were lots of discarded copies of the "London Evening Standard" lying around on the tables! Who knows I might have been on one of the workings you saw.

 

[Bald Rick]

Remember that dividing revenue between routes (or more strictly, service codes) was just what the famous BR ORCATS system was designed for. Train-specific APEX tickets obviously didn't need to be divided up.

With both East Coast and West Coast offering a broadly two-hourly service, leaving Glasgow on alternate hours and taking about the same time (i.e. not 'overtaken') it was fairly obvious that Glasgow-London revenue would get split about 50/50 in logic terms, regardless of whether a larger proportion actually travelled on the 'traditional' croute.

Oh I completely agree. The row was that ICWC thought they were still carrying all the passengers on the ‘traditonal’ route, as that’s what Glasgow passengers had always done, but only getting half the revenue.

Cue a couple of fresh faced good looking twenty somethings dispatched to do a ticket survey on the WCML Anglo Scots to ascertain the real position. Which turned out to be as per ORCATs to the intense dissatisfaction of the ICWC Revenue Manager.

 

[hexagon789]

I may be wrong, but I think it was the first foray into APEX tickets.

So each route had an allocation of cheaper advance tickets and the ICEC managed to sell enough to get close to the ICWC in revenue terms, no wonder the West Coast got a bit worried!

 

[hexagon789]

Yep. Remember staying out late as a 7 year old to spot it coming through Lenzie. On both occasions I saw it, it was travelling very slowly for some reason, barely more than walking pace.
It was a very exotic train for us!

Probably getting checked into Glasgow, the timings would've been quite easy for an HST to beat without exceeding 100mph.

 

[Taunton]

I may be wrong, but I think it was the first foray into APEX tickets.

There was certainly an earlier one, not sure of the name, by Spring 1972, as university girlfriend came on one from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, booked weeks beforehand. Seemed strange to me, but father was prominent in local Kent season ticket travellers' association and probably learned of it through there. Many years later, thumbing my past Modern Railways, I actually found by chance a reference to it from that time.

I was at uni at the time and if I couldn't be bothered studying of an evening I would take a 47/7 across to Edinburgh Waverley and then the HST back to Queen St.

By 1974 I was at the other end of the route, and sometimes did this evening return, where a special fare after 18.30 was ... just 69p. Wonder how much it was for you. The evening push-pulls were normally pretty empty anyway.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes they went to Queen St. They were also too long for the platforms.

They were swapped to Central when Carstairs - Edinburgh was electrified.

When they went to Queen St, the Edinburgh - Glasgow service was half hourly, with no other services between the two cities other than the awfully slow Shotts line DMU. Now it is very different.

The current LNER services are similarly too long for Queen St - unless they split at Edinburgh, which would take up capacity at Waverley. Similarly the service would take up capacity on the E&G, and at Queen St, which I suspect is at a premium.

What they do with the Highland Chieftain is send it up in the path that is normally occupied by the Glasgow via Cumbernauld stopping services, and shift everything back. This:

XX:30 - Glasgow QS via Falkirk High (fast)
XX:33/4 - Glasgow QS via Cumbernauld (slow)
XX:37 - Milngavie via Bathgate
XX:45 - Glasgow QS via Falkirk High

...becomes this:

16:30 - Glasgow QS via Falkirk High (fast)
16:33 - Inverness
16:37 - Glasgow QS via Cumbernauld (slow)
16:41 - Milngavie via Bathgate
16:45 - Glasgow QS via Falkirk High
The 16:45 has 2 minutes of pathing between Haymarket and Newbridge Junction to avoid whacking into the Milngavie.

I don't know if this is possible every hour, but assuming that it is, the XX:33 London to Glasgow QS would follow the XX:30 to Queen Street (so the train wouldn't really get to maximum speed at any point). At Greenhill Junction it'd have to wait because there's an express from Aberdeen then a Stirling - Glasgow local. That kills any time saving.

 

[route101]

I always thought XC could run into Queen St , then you lose the Motherwell stop.

 

[hexagon789]

I always thought XC could run into Queen St , then you lose the Motherwell stop.

If a path could be found, might be quicker than running via Carstairs?

 

[30907]

I may be wrong, but I think it was the first foray into APEX tickets.

I had an APEX type return ticket on the WCML in 1973 - I used it to start a ScR Rover with a Sunday Euston-Hellifield-Glasgow... IIRC you had to specify your train but worth your own reservation (on the way back overnight from GLC on a holiday weekend was interesting...).
I see Taunton has beaten me to it

 

[jcf5561]

This video shows HSTs terminating in Glasgow Queen Street -

 

[edwin_m]

I always thought XC could run into Queen St , then you lose the Motherwell stop.

If a path could be found, might be quicker than running via Carstairs?

It would have to be quicker than via Carstairs, otherwise it would have been overtaken by several 385s on the way. But the XC isn't particularly time critical, there are plenty of other choices for anyone in a hurry between Glasgow and Edinburgh. It essentially provides a hassle-free through journey to the North East of England for Glasgow (which it could do from Queen Street) and to Edinburgh and beyond for Motherwell (which it couldn't).

 

[CW2]

In the mornings the HST used to work 07:00 Edinburgh - Queen Street then 08:00 Queen Street - Kings Cross. These high-capacity premier services were very popular with Scottish commuters.

The Queen Street - Scarborough service ran at least as late as 1986. It was heavily reserved from Glasgow during the peak summer fortnight, but still ran pretty well loaded outwith that time. On occasions additional coaches were added at Edinburgh.

 

[trebor79]

Coo that video brings back some memories! Bouncing up and down in the DMUs, and thinking the push pull sets were ultra modern. Particularly remember sitting in the front of a DMU one sunny day with my father and younger brother, eating mint humbugs and watching the through the front windows. Happy days.
I didn't believe my friend when he says we could see a 125 if we started out late. It was with the telling off when we got home.

 

[hexagon789]

It would have to be quicker than via Carstairs, otherwise it would have been overtaken by several 385s on the way. But the XC isn't particularly time critical, there are plenty of other choices for anyone in a hurry between Glasgow and Edinburgh. It essentially provides a hassle-free through journey to the North East of England for Glasgow (which it could do from Queen Street) and to Edinburgh and beyond for Motherwell (which it couldn't).

Bases on the shorter route and fewer speed restrictions I think it would be quicker if you could find a path.

 

[hexagon789]

In the mornings the HST used to work 07:00 Edinburgh - Queen Street then 08:00 Queen Street - Kings Cross. These high-capacity premier services were very popular with Scottish commuters.

The Queen Street - Scarborough service ran at least as late as 1986. It was heavily reserved from Glasgow during the peak summer fortnight, but still ran pretty well loaded outwith that time. On occasions additional coaches were added at Edinburgh.

There was also the Cleethorpes until about the early 1980s and a service from Inverness which then ran to Paignton and vice-versa.

 

[hexagon789]

thinking the push pull sets were ultra modern

Given the Scottish Region had no air-con stock allocated for internal services until 1982 other than the Mk3/DBSO for the Edinburgh & Glasgow, I think they would seem very modern compared to everything else - even if the LMR deliberately gave up the oldest and most worn of its Mk3 allocation for the sets.

 

[route101]

In the mornings the HST used to work 07:00 Edinburgh - Queen Street then 08:00 Queen Street - Kings Cross. These high-capacity premier services were very popular with Scottish commuters.

The Queen Street - Scarborough service ran at least as late as 1986. It was heavily reserved from Glasgow during the peak summer fortnight, but still ran pretty well loaded outwith that time. On occasions additional coaches were added at Edinburgh.

Ive got a SPT timetable from 1989 and shows Scarborough from Queen St.

 

[gsnedders]

Bases on the shorter route and fewer speed restrictions I think it would be quicker if you could find a path.

And a platform at Queen Street!

 

[hexagon789]

And a platform at Queen Street!

Good point and one I overlooked!

 

[hexagon789]

Ive got a SPT timetable from 1989 and shows Scarborough from Queen St.

It's there in my full BR 1988 and the Cleethorpes is in my BR Scotland 1980/81

 

[CW2]

On Saturday 14/07/79 I travelled on an 00:05 Glasgow Queen Street to Scarborough additional, which was load 8, full and standing. Because of the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse it was routed from Edinburgh via Carlisle to Newastle, which is where I joined it during the crew change. I alighted at York, where the train reversed and re-engined.

 

[snookertam]

As noted above the London Kings Cross to Glasgow service traditionally used Queen Street. It could be slightly more realistic to return the one through service to Queen Street again given that there’s only one and it runs early morning/late evening, but as others have pointed out the a Motherwell stop would be lost.

Also people in Glasgow now know Central as the station for trains to England so it keeps things consistent. Queen Street is very much seen as the station for Edinburgh and points north. Engineering work could see queen street used again potentially by EC or XC but given the frequency of the ScotRail service they’ll probably see it as far more worthwhile to terminate at Edinburgh and have passengers change over.

The Caledonian sleeper did on a couple of occasions last year use Queen Street, a CL 90 came into platform 7 which after years of being so associated with Central was an unusual sight. This I believe was due to engineering work on the WCML.

 

[GarethW]

There was certainly an earlier one, not sure of the name, by Spring 1972, as university girlfriend came on one from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, booked weeks beforehand. Seemed strange to me, but father was prominent in local Kent season ticket travellers' association and probably learned of it through there. Many years later, thumbing my past Modern Railways, I actually found by chance a reference to it from that time.
By 1974 I was at the other end of the route, and sometimes did this evening return, where a special fare after 18.30 was ... just 69p. Wonder how much it was for you. The evening push-pulls were normally pretty empty anyway.

Used to do something similar a few years later.

Mind you the fare now is £13.60 which equates to £1.11 in 1974 money.

 

[gsnedders]

As noted above the London Kings Cross to Glasgow service traditionally used Queen Street. It could be slightly more realistic to return the one through service to Queen Street again given that there’s only one and it runs early morning/late evening, but as others have pointed out the a Motherwell stop would be lost.

Also people in Glasgow now know Central as the station for trains to England so it keeps things consistent. Queen Street is very much seen as the station for Edinburgh and points north. Engineering work could see queen street used again potentially by EC or XC but given the frequency of the ScotRail service they’ll probably see it as far more worthwhile to terminate at Edinburgh and have passengers change over.

EC could only run 5-car services into Queen Street, as a 9-car would be all the way up into the tunnels, which likely makes it impossible or irrelevant. I expect we'll continue to see what we've seen before when engineering work has curtailed those services: an expectation that people get the frequent ScotRail services.

 

[CW2]

How about 1 x 5-car from Queen Street and 1 x 5-car from Stirling, coupling at Edinburgh then forward to Kings Cross?

 

[Taunton]

Used to do something similar a few years later.

Mind you the fare now is £13.60 which equates to £1.11 in 1974 money.

Is that the evening special fare, equivalent to the 69p? because the normal day return fare in 1974 was £1.10. If the latter, it's a remarkable consistency.

Regarding the early advance purchase fare from London to Scotland in 1972, it was apparently the Economy Return, available midweek days only, buy at least one week ahead. I think it was half fare. If you had a student railcard, which covered everything, that made it just quarter normal fare.

 

[gingerheid]

Cue a couple of fresh faced good looking twenty somethings dispatched to do a ticket survey on the WCML Anglo Scots to ascertain the real position. Which turned out to be as per ORCATs to the intense dissatisfaction of the ICWC Revenue Manager.

That's amazing. Obviously some destinations (or connections) naturally called for one route or the other. But when it was a choice between an IC225 on the ECML or a something old and unreliable on the WCML... I know which one we preferred...