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Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

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CEN60

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relocation of the electrification team from Cadder yard to Greenloaning (north of Dunblane) would tie in with this.


The main development is being done by done by an NR Glasgow Team in collaboration with engineers from a well known Engineering Consultants based in Glasgow
 
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Philip Phlopp

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I'd be interested to know if the 15 year rolling plan is simply for stringing up the wires, or whether there are plans to upgrade any/some/most/all of the pinch points on the network. I'm thinking about the single track sections of the Highland Mainline, Usan & Montrose Esk viaduct, the Tay viaduct in Perth and the GSWR from Barrhead to Kilmarnock for starters.

Just electrification, it's solely the decarbonisation strategy. The performance benefits of electric rolling stock (particularly on the HML) and the desire to run longer rolling stock will all then feed into infrastructure enhancements, station/line re-openings and so on. Expect to see more and longer platforms, level crossing closures and restrictive structures being cleared alongside electrification to make the best of the new rolling stock coming Scotland's way.
 

InOban

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Nevertheless it's much more expensive to carry out infrastructure improvements after the wires are up, so I hope that NR are going to put together a program of enhancements for each line, to be delivered beforehand.
 

Muenchener

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Let us hope that NR and it's supply chain step up to the mark and deliver this project without some of the issues that plagued some of the recent electrification projects South of the border.
There appears to be headroom built into this plan with NR encouraged to develop innovative solutions that will benefit a rolling programme over time which will help control costs and, perhaps, future years electrification miles will be completed ahead of target.

In terms of resouce and skill sets; does anyone see this being delivered in tandem wih the likes of the Trans Pennine Upgrade or is there potential for delivery of the plan to mark time whilst limited resources migrate between one project and others?
 

Philip Phlopp

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Nevertheless it's much more expensive to carry out infrastructure improvements after the wires are up, so I hope that NR are going to put together a program of enhancements for each line, to be delivered beforehand.

It's only much more expensive if you don't include passive (or even active) provision, which electrification works in Scotland have so far been good at including. If you're careful with your selection of portals, cantilever and mast structures, and the location of their foundations, it's possible to electrify routes in a way that allows projects like re-doubling, additional platform construction/re-openings, platform extensions and gauge enhancement without making things ruinously expensive.
 

edwin_m

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In terms of resouce and skill sets; does anyone see this being delivered in tandem wih the likes of the Trans Pennine Upgrade or is there potential for delivery of the plan to mark time whilst limited resources migrate between one project and others?
If the UK government is serious about decarbonization then they will have work for multiple electrification teams in England from very soon until 2050 and probably beyond. So the two should go ahead in parallel with each other and with other places too, subject to the risk that we don't want too much being authorized too quickly. The hurried design and costing that resulted when that happened from 2010 onwards was one of the reasons for the overspends on GWML etc.

The yellow bits on the map posted upthread show that Scotland doesn't expect to finish by 2050, which may be a plan to wind the resources down gradually instead of abruptly putting them out of a job in 2049.
 

hwl

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If the UK government is serious about decarbonization then they will have work for multiple electrification teams in England from very soon until 2050 and probably beyond. So the two should go ahead in parallel with each other and with other places too, subject to the risk that we don't want too much being authorized too quickly. The hurried design and costing that resulted when that happened from 2010 onwards was one of the reasons for the overspends on GWML etc.

The yellow bits on the map posted upthread show that Scotland doesn't expect to finish by 2050, which may be a plan to wind the resources down gradually instead of abruptly putting them out of a job in 2049.
The second map (no yellow) in post 4088 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scottish-electrification-updates-discussion.90420/post-4692064) show they want to complete by 2045.
 

CW2

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A slight presentational grizzle:
About 1 in 12 of the UK male* population is colourblind, with red-green colourblindness being the most common. Presenting people with diagrams where red lines and green lines are intermixed but mean opposite things is just plain ignorant, and could be described as discriminatory. Yes, I am aware of the usual railway standards on signalling diagrams, but this is a document designed to be read and used by the general population. It is utterly useless for me - and millions of other people like me.

* It is a genetic condition which is very rare in females.
 

Philip Phlopp

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In terms of resouce and skill sets; does anyone see this being delivered in tandem wih the likes of the Trans Pennine Upgrade or is there potential for delivery of the plan to mark time whilst limited resources migrate between one project and others?

No issues - the Scottish teams have managed Edinburgh to Glasgow, Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane, Grangemouth and Shotts Line projects whilst the Great Western, North West, Chase Line and parts of the Midland Mainline electrification projects were running. There's been a lot of investment in recent years in road-rail electrification plant, particularly piling/boring equipment.

The yellow bits on the map posted upthread show that Scotland doesn't expect to finish by 2050, which may be a plan to wind the resources down gradually instead of abruptly putting them out of a job in 2049.

They won't be put out of a job in 2045, there will inevitably be some wind down of resources, but personnel and most of the same plant will be needed in increasing numbers for routine maintenance tasks as electrified route mileage increases. The same people and plant will also be needed for OLE renewal projects and for enhancements across the network. Electrification, whether on the 'university educated' side or on the 'skilled workforce' side, is a great career move right now, particularly in Scotland.
 

GRALISTAIR

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A slight presentational grizzle:
About 1 in 12 of the UK male* population is colourblind, with red-green colourblindness being the most common. Presenting people with diagrams where red lines and green lines are intermixed but mean opposite things is just plain ignorant, and could be described as discriminatory. Yes, I am aware of the usual railway standards on signalling diagrams, but this is a document designed to be read and used by the general population. It is utterly useless for me - and millions of other people like me.

* It is a genetic condition which is very rare in females.

My middle brother is red-green colour blind. So may I ask, in your opinion, what colours would you make the lines on the electrification maps?
 

CW2

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My middle brother is red-green colour blind. So may I ask, in your opinion, what colours would you make the lines on the electrification maps?
I'd cope with red, yellow, blue - others might have some issues with that combination, I don't know for sure.
Better still some combination of changed colours and dotted / dashed / solid lines.
 

GRALISTAIR

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If the UK government is serious about decarbonization then they will have work for multiple electrification teams in England from very soon until 2050 and probably beyond. So the two should go ahead in parallel with each other and with other places too, subject to the risk that we don't want too much being authorized too quickly. The hurried design and costing that resulted when that happened from 2010 onwards was one of the reasons for the overspends on GWML etc.

No issues - the Scottish teams have managed Edinburgh to Glasgow, Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane, Grangemouth and Shotts Line projects whilst the Great Western, North West, Chase Line and parts of the Midland Mainline electrification projects were running. There's been a lot of investment in recent years in road-rail electrification plant, particularly piling/boring equipment.

They won't be put out of a job in 2045, there will inevitably be some wind down of resources, but personnel and most of the same plant will be needed in increasing numbers for routine maintenance tasks as electrified route mileage increases.

EXACTLY - multiple teams, no real issues. I will post a closed thread where I asked for speculation a number of years ago. I will try and find and edit this post accordingly or I may even ask to reopen or start another.

EDIT - here is the thread.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
apologies but I have not read through all of this so if my comments are off topic or irrelevant or stupid please let me off. Generally speaking this is an ambitious but very optimistic and positive plan. Too optimistic maybe? It remains to be seen but my cynical side says possibly. particularly welcomed by me is the electrification planned for the Glasgow and south western. This from my point of view should have been prioritised over other projects in recent times and should now be fast-tracked simply because we don't want to be having to buy buy more diesel rolling stock to replace the 156 units when they retire in the next 5 or 10 years and nothing we have currently operating north of the border DA1 really be appropriate for those roots namely the 170 which will be the only diesel multiple units left once the sprinters go.



Fife, Glaswegian diesel islands and the other bits are fairly obvious choices to those of us who have given it any thought but it's just once again nice to see them all proposed and clearly being thought about long and hard by those that matter.
 

Mollman

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A slight presentational grizzle:
About 1 in 12 of the UK male* population is colourblind, with red-green colourblindness being the most common. Presenting people with diagrams where red lines and green lines are intermixed but mean opposite things is just plain ignorant, and could be described as discriminatory. Yes, I am aware of the usual railway standards on signalling diagrams, but this is a document designed to be read and used by the general population. It is utterly useless for me - and millions of other people like me.

* It is a genetic condition which is very rare in females.

I do alright with that map but the electrification map in last months Modern Railway's was a nightmare for me, too many blues which all look the same to me. (I am a bit odd in that Green & Red are fine but red / brown and shades of blue are not).
 

GRALISTAIR

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I am NOT colour blind and am in fact a trained colour matcher for paint batches etc. However, although I very much lauded the David Shirres article, even when printed out the two shades of blue were extremely difficult to make out. I actually think black would be a good choice for some lines.
 

hwl

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apologies but I have not read through all of this so if my comments are off topic or irrelevant or stupid please let me off. Generally speaking this is an ambitious but very optimistic and positive plan. Too optimistic maybe? It remains to be seen but my cynical side says possibly. particularly welcomed by me is the electrification planned for the Glasgow and south western. This from my point of view should have been prioritised over other projects in recent times and should now be fast-tracked simply because we don't want to be having to buy buy more diesel rolling stock to replace the 156 units when they retire in the next 5 or 10 years and nothing we have currently operating north of the border DA1 really be appropriate for those roots namely the 170 which will be the only diesel multiple units left once the sprinters go.



Fife, Glaswegian diesel islands and the other bits are fairly obvious choices to those of us who have given it any thought but it's just once again nice to see them all proposed and clearly being thought about long and hard by those that matter.
I suspect some bimode Diesel-Electric MUs will be purchased that will end up being cascaded and or the diesel bit replaced.
 

gsnedders

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Transport Scotland would have cleared the plan with Ministers so I’m pretty confident the government is committed.
This Government is, though whether future Governments will be is another question. (That said, it seems unlikely we'll have a change of Government in the near future, but 2035 is far enough away that who knows.)

To me there's a bunch of interesting questions around rolling-stock in the short term: how long do we expect the 156/158/170s to keep going, and if we replace them what do we replace them with, knowing that electrification is on its way? This does at least give us some clearer direction for where we expect things to go in the future, and as others have said with the few non-electrified lines left it seems reasonable to assume some scenic stock may well be specified (again!). The only line it is questionable on is Stranraer but I doubt it makes sense to introduce a new type of stock for it alone (though there might be political benefits in introducing a fleet purely for it with a depot somewhere near Girvan or Stranraer).

I suspect some bimode Diesel-Electric MUs will be purchased that will end up being cascaded and or the diesel bit replaced.
I expect we'll see a variety of solutions for different lines. It may well be possible to wire the majority of the route relatively easily for somewhere like the Fife Circle and rely on battery/pantograph units. For the I7C I expect we'll see the HSTs keep going till they get replaced (especially given the extensive overhaul they've had).

I do wonder if we'll see any hydrogen fuel-cell/pantograph hybrid units; that might be challenging from a packaging point of view.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I suspect some bimode Diesel-Electric MUs will be purchased that will end up being cascaded and or the diesel bit replaced.
I thought initially hoped/thought (hope is a wonderful thing) that ECML power upgrade would happen then MML get completely done and then finish off GWML etc and then use cascaded bimodes from England/Wales that would/could go to Scotland. However, that introduces risk to the whole timetable. So on reflection I could see Scotland ordering their own bimodes but specifying in the contract that they must be easily upgradeable at a later date by being able to remove battery/diesel genset or whatever and converting to straight electric. Not quite straight forward as their are mass/balance/ Centre of Gravity issues etc.
 

hwl

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A slight presentational grizzle:
About 1 in 12 of the UK male* population is colourblind, with red-green colourblindness being the most common. Presenting people with diagrams where red lines and green lines are intermixed but mean opposite things is just plain ignorant, and could be described as discriminatory. Yes, I am aware of the usual railway standards on signalling diagrams, but this is a document designed to be read and used by the general population. It is utterly useless for me - and millions of other people like me.

* It is a genetic condition which is very rare in females.
I'm not colour blind but I did once have a CEO of client who was Red-Green colour blind so were were pretty good on making sure everything was done right.
I ran the 2035 Red-Yellow-Green map through a colour blindness image tester and unsurprisingly Red-Green is an issue but the is a line thickness difference between red and green which does help a tiny bit (scraping barrel for something positive)

What they could have done better:
Accentuate differences by using greater difference in thickness of line.
Use different line texture / patterns
Make sure there are tonal differences e.g. a washed out red and deep green, e.g. if you print it out in Black and White could you tell the difference?
Use colour blind friendly palettes, a good start is using the IEC electrical wiring colours e.g. Brown-Blue-Grey-Black-Orange-Green-Purple (1st 4 also happens to have good tonal difference) or Tube map colours minus central line as they have been carefully tweaked.
 

hwl

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I am NOT colour blind and am in fact a trained colour matcher for paint batches etc. However, although I very much lauded the David Shirres article, even when printed out the two shades of blue were extremely difficult to make out. I actually think black would be a good choice for some lines.
That was a bad choice of colours too!
 

59CosG95

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Isn't it all fed from Greenhill?
I believe so. For those wondering about the feeding arrangements at Greenhill, a quick check on NR's RouteView shows that while the feeder station is currently operating in boosterless classic mode, provision for autotransformers has been put in, with a fenced-off area for the oil bunds being set off to the side of the ASG container.
 

haggishunter

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I do wonder if we'll see any hydrogen fuel-cell/pantograph hybrid units; that might be challenging from a packaging point of view.

The partial wiring of the WHL and Far North Line surely require it? You’d want to minimise the amount of self powered running to reduce hydrogen storage requirements on board.

Though I heard a suggestion recently that battery 385s would take over the WHL South of Crianlarich with passengers required to change onto 158s for onwards travel until new dedicated bi-mode alternative stock was developed.

It might not be the best for passenger convenience, but if well managed cross platform changes it would be tolerable, would eradicate WHL sprinters units from Glasgow QS and provide faster and possibly more frequent journeys from Crianlarich to QS. Would def not want to see 385s or similar suburban layouts running any further North.

TBH thought it was wibble and a windup by someone who could be in the know, but then this decarbonisation plan popped up! So who knows!
 

Brissle Girl

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The partial wiring of the WHL and Far North Line surely require it? You’d want to minimise the amount of self powered running to reduce hydrogen storage requirements on board.

Though I heard a suggestion recently that battery 385s would take over the WHL South of Crianlarich with passengers required to change onto 158s for onwards travel until new dedicated bi-mode alternative stock was developed.

It might not be the best for passenger convenience, but if well managed cross platform changes it would be tolerable, would eradicate WHL sprinters units from Glasgow QS and provide faster and possibly more frequent journeys from Crianlarich to QS. Would def not want to see 385s or similar suburban layouts running any further North.

TBH thought it was wibble and a windup by someone who could be in the know, but then this decarbonisation plan popped up! So who knows!
I would imagine there would be an uproar if passengers were asked to change at Crianlarich. That's got to be a "no" surely.

Interesting to note that Vivarail is today saying that its latest batteries can do 100 miles between charges, up from a claim of 60 a year ago. Whilst not suggesting that a Class 230 is suitable for any of the tourist lines, it shows how quickly battery technology is improving.
 

CW2

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To avoid the aforementioned need to change trains at Crianlarich, you could attach some form of self-propelled power unit to the EMU and haul it the rest of the way. That way you could have a choice of power sources for the un-electrified bit. The only problem is, what would you call this mobile self-propelled box of power. I know, how about "locomotive"?
 

GRALISTAIR

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I believe so. For those wondering about the feeding arrangements at Greenhill, a quick check on NR's RouteView shows that while the feeder station is currently operating in boosterless classic mode, provision for autotransformers has been put in, with a fenced-off area for the oil bunds being set off to the side of the ASG container.
Thanks for posting that. I was thinking this lot is going to be quite power hungry so I assumed AT would get used more.
 

hwl

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Just electrification, it's solely the decarbonisation strategy. The performance benefits of electric rolling stock (particularly on the HML) and the desire to run longer rolling stock will all then feed into infrastructure enhancements, station/line re-openings and so on. Expect to see more and longer platforms, level crossing closures and restrictive structures being cleared alongside electrification to make the best of the new rolling stock coming Scotland's way.
Agreed, quite a few passing loops will be in the wrong places given (future) EMU performance and timings.
 

Highland37

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This is great news and I welcome it. I wonder how Killiecrankie will be done?

Surprised to not see much fanfare about it though.

If I understand the report correctly, there is a call for further devolution of Network Rail powers so that Scottish Ministers have full responsibility. Seems sensible to me.
 

hwl

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I would imagine there would be an uproar if passengers were asked to change at Crianlarich. That's got to be a "no" surely.

Interesting to note that Vivarail is today saying that its latest batteries can do 100 miles between charges, up from a claim of 60 a year ago. Whilst not suggesting that a Class 230 is suitable for any of the tourist lines, it shows how quickly battery technology is improving.
That is why Transport Scotland are being fairly cautious on what self-powered means in the very long term.
Of the Long term self powered routes:
Stranrear - Girvan (limit of electrification) is 54 single/108 return miles - not far off battery for return trip.

Tain (limit of proposed electrification) - Wick is 116 single miles
Tain (limit of proposed electrification) - Thruso is 109 single miles
Dingwall - Kyle of Lochalsh is 64 single / 128 return miles

WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Cairnlarich is 36 single / 72 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Oban is 71 single / 142 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Fort William is 100 miles
WHL: Fort William - Mallaig is 41 single miles / 82 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Mallaig is 141 single miles *significantly outside current battery envelope*

With some judicious charging points at the far end (and Fort Bill) and some long layover times then an awful lot of that could be battery with just few battery performance improvements.

(Or just rebuild a 153 and part fill with batteries and a bit of luggage space for bit of extra battery range and hook it up a one end :lol: . The batteries will take up a lot less space than Hydrogen!)
 
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gingertom

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That is why Transport Scotland are being fairly cautious on what self-powered means in the very long term.
Of the Long term self powered routes:
Stranrear - Girvan (limit of electrification) is 54 single/108 return miles - not far off battery for return trip.

Tain (limit of proposed electrification) - Wick is 116 single miles
Tain (limit of proposed electrification) - Thruso is 109 single miles
Dingwall - Kyle of Lochalsh is 64 single / 128 return miles

WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Cairnlarich is 36 single / 72 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Oban is 71 single / 142 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Fort William is 100 miles
WHL: Fort William - Mallaig is 41 single miles / 82 return miles
WHL: Craigendoran Jn (limit of current electrification) - Mallaig is 141 single miles *significantly outside current battery envelope*

With some judicious charging points at the far end (and Fort Bill) and some long layover times then an awful lot of that could be battery with just few battery performance improvements.

(Or just rebuild a 153 and part fill with batteries and a bit of luggage space for bit of extra battery range and hook it up a one end :lol: . The batteries will take up a lot less space than Hydrogen!)
Stranraer - Girvan. Looks like a round trip on batteries *could* be achievable, however a charging point at Stranraer would be advisable for confidence.

Dingwall - Kyle. Borderline for a round trip. A recharge at Kyle I'd say was essential.

WHL: Craigendoran jn is an inconvenient place to change modes. For the sake if a couple of miles I'd suggest wiring to Helensburgh Upper, makes for a convenient location for the mode change, allows a few more miles to charge them batteries, and shortens the miles without wires to Oban & Fort William, Also keep in mind the linespeeds on the WHL are such that high power isn't needed, which will extend the useful range of the battery charge. But will that range be sufficient? A top up at somewhere like Crianlarich would be useful.

Tain- Wick & Thurso also borderline. I'd suggest wiring from either Golspie to Brora or Golspie to Helmsdale: more or lass halfway, very few structures to clear and power grid not too far away. Plus a charging facility at Wick and Thurso stations, possibly even wiring from Wick - Georgemas - Thurso to enable recharge on the move.
 
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