Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[samuelmorris]

So if I'm understanding that right, they are failing almost 12× more often than what the replaced?

They'd better get saving for an extended lease on that LHCS then or they're not going to have a fleet large enough to run a proper service...

for the 745/0s, about that yes. The 745/1s have a lower MTIN than the 745/0 but it's harder to compare to the fleet they're replacing as they've spent less time in service and they are replacing 2 or 3 distinct units. In real terms the MTIN of the 745/1 is about 20x lower than that of the 379s, but that isn't directly comparable - certainly best-case they're 6-7x worse at present.

 

[py_megapixel]

for the 745/0s, about that yes. The 745/1s have a lower MTIN than the 745/0 but it's harder to compare to the fleet they're replacing as they've spent less time in service and they are replacing 2 or 3 distinct units. In real terms the MTIN of the 745/1 is about 20x lower than that of the 379s, but that isn't directly comparable - certainly best-case they're 6-7x worse at present.

Hmm... they may not have the door faults of a 195, the poor cab design of a 385 or the leaky AC of a 800 but those reliability figures still look abysmal.

Doesn't bode well for the Stadler units for Merseytravel or TfW either though they might have some of the issues ironed out by then

 

[samuelmorris]

Hmm... they may not have the door faults of a 195, the poor cab design of a 385 or the leaky AC of a 800 but those reliability figures still look abysmal.

Doesn't bode well for the Stadler units for Merseytravel or TfW either though they might have some of the issues ironed out by then

It would be good to get some insight on what the faults are. I haven't heard anything like the continuous complaints about engine failures with the 755s, yet despite probably covering more miles in a day, the 745s are posting similar MTIN figures.

 

[Bayum]

Are lower mileage incidents not to be expected with a new fleet?

 

[samuelmorris]

They are of course, but the only multiple unit manufacturers that have attained reliability figures comparable to those of the old BR era fleets being retired are Siemens and Hitachi. With the exception of the Nova 3 which isn't really a multiple unit, no CAF, Bombardier or Stadler unit of the current new generation has reached the reliability levels attained by things like 319s, 321s etc. Those units don't exactly have a stellar track record and most of these fleets, including the 755s, have now been in service for a year or more.

Here's how the GA fleet stacks up so far:

https://i.imgur.com/cyUAZG2.png

 

[Railperf]

I've not had a 745 fail on me yet on the Norwich route.
Maybe this is a West Anglia route specific issue?

 

[Energy]

They are of course, but the only multiple unit manufacturers that have attained reliability figures comparable to those of the old BR era fleets being retired are Siemens and Hitachi. With the exception of the Nova 3 which isn't really a multiple unit, no CAF, Bombardier or Stadler unit of the current new generation has reached the reliability levels attained by things like 319s, 321s etc. Those units don't exactly have a stellar track record and most of these fleets, including the 755s, have now been in service for a year or more.

Here's how the GA fleet stacks up so far:

https://i.imgur.com/cyUAZG2.png

To be fair to Stadler it is its first trains in the UK (Except the trams and locos which weren't really Stadlers). I'm sure it will improve as Stadler iron out the faults.

 

[chubs]

So if I'm understanding that right, they are failing almost 12× more often than what the replaced?

They'd better get saving for an extended lease on that LHCS then or they're not going to have a fleet large enough to run a proper service...

The loco hauled stock has gone on its long overdue way to the scrappers, good riddance.

Struggling to think of any new fleet that had a fantastic first year. It will get there.

 

[Railperf]

No sign of a 745 on Stansted services today yet...

 

[samuelmorris]

I've not had a 745 fail on me yet on the Norwich route.
Maybe this is a West Anglia route specific issue?

All three units failing in a matter of hours may suggest you're right about that but the general reliability of the stock over the past few months suggests a general problem, as they have only previously been working Norwich services and still posting fairly low scores.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Still no 745s out today?

 

[Railperf]

Still no 745s out today?

10;00, 10:30 11:00, 11:30 Norwich to London services claimed 12 coach but no first class - indicates quite a few 745/1s on the norwich run today.


EDIT: 11:30 now down to a 3-car - presumably a 755/3 and terminating at Colchester - will start at 14:47 from Colchester to Norwich!

 

[dk1]

10;30, 11:00, 11:30 and 12:30 Norwich to London services claimed 12 coach but no first class - indicates quite a few 745/1s on the norwich run today.


EDIT: 11:30 now down to a 3-car - presumably a 755/3 and terminating at Colchester!

I do not think the 1230 runs yet. Yes 332 on 1130 and will run into the yard or up loop to reform the 1400dn.

 

[Railperf]

I do not think the 1230 runs yet. Yes 332 on 1130 and will run into the yard or up loop to reform the 1400dn.

Yes - my mistake - edited. it was the 10:00 too. Where are all the 745/0's?

 

[dk1]

Yes - my mistake - edited. it was the 10:00 too. Where are all the 745/0's?

No worries. I've twice been caught out by there being no 16:08 IPS-Nrw

 

[Class 170101]

I've not had a 745 fail on me yet on the Norwich route.
Maybe this is a West Anglia route specific issue?

You are lucky. There have been failures of Class 745s including the infamous one at Forest Gate - Something like 5hrs sat there wasn't it?

 

[F Great Eastern]

All three units failing in a matter of hours may suggest you're right about that but the general reliability of the stock over the past few months suggests a general problem, as they have only previously been working Norwich services and still posting fairly low scores.

GA don't measure reliability on MTIN, I'm told, they measure it on 'industry standards' like PPM that is at a record high.

Of course, the PPM being so high over the past few months has everything to do with their fantastic new trains and nothing to do with less people travelling and cut down timetables reducing units required in service.

 

[samuelmorris]

Well no, you wouldn't measure service reliability with MTIN, only rolling stock reliability and to be fair, there probably isn't too much reason to make that public as even enthusiasts confuse the significance of the numbers, let alone the general public. I can't really argue with the TOC's stance about that.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well no, you wouldn't measure service reliability with MTIN, only rolling stock reliability and to be fair, there probably isn't too much reason to make that public as even enthusiasts confuse the significance of the numbers, let alone the general public. I can't really argue with the TOC's stance about that.

I think you can argue with a TOC's stance on measuring rolling stock reliability using a measure which is clearly and heavily affected by things other than rolling stock reliablility, when there is another measure specifically for that purpose.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think you can argue with a TOC's stance on measuring rolling stock reliability using a measure which is clearly and heavily affected by things other than rolling stock reliablility, when there is another measure specifically for that purpose.

But is that what they do? I would expect GA to only advertise service reliability as a whole, not publish any data pertaining specifically to their rolling stock...

 

[py_megapixel]

But is that what they do? I would expect GA to only advertise service reliability as a whole, not publish any data pertaining specifically to their rolling stock...

According to @F Great Eastern they do.

 

[samuelmorris]

Apologies, I've just looked through the site and can indeed see that they are doing just that. Oh dear

Never underestimate the Abellio propaganda machine I guess!

 

[lord rathmore]

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems almost as though forum members will only be happy if the new stock fails completely. Me, I like them, any teething troubles should be seen objectively.

 

[samuelmorris]

Absolutely not and the current figures posted for 745s are within expectations for how long they've been in service. Just disappointing is all!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems almost as though forum members will only be happy if the new stock fails completely. Me, I like them, any teething troubles should be seen objectively.

The Class 90s and LHCS were always going to need replacing with something and I'm glad that they've gone down the new route and there is no doubt that the FLIRT is an excellent product in other countries.

I also wouldn't expect that Stadler's first UK rolling stock project was going to hit the highest reliability figures of new rolling stock as they are new to the UK Market which brings it's own challenges.

Also, I have to say that Abellio's PR drive over the last year or so where the focus was clearly on self preservation rather than full transparency, hasn't helped them in many peoples eyes.

 

[CBlue]

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems almost as though forum members will only be happy if the new stock fails completely. Me, I like them, any teething troubles should be seen objectively.

It's almost like there's some bizarre, misplaced hope that the Class 90 hauled stock will return... Imo the Stadler units are far superior.

That said, new rolling stock having poor reliability for the first year appears to have been the case for the last 20 years at least.

 

[py_megapixel]

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems almost as though forum members will only be happy if the new stock fails completely. Me, I like them, any teething troubles should be seen objectively.

It often seems like that to me as well. As soon as the CAF units started having door problems the thread was full of people claiming that there was some fundamental reason that they were always doomed to fail. Northern had good and well-documented reasons for choosing CAF, and it was their first DMU build for the UK so of course there's going to be a few problems, most of which seemed to have settled down now. But I digress.

The FLIRTs look like they have lovely interiors, and though I'm yet to try one I can't wait to do so.

 

[trebor79]

The FLIRTs look like they have lovely interiors, and though I'm yet to try one I can't wait to do so.

They are brilliant trains to travel on. Light years ahead of what they replaced.

 

[Railperf]

Judging hy Greater Anglia journey check train formation and catering updates - there appear to be at least a trio of 745/1s (stansted units being used on Norwich services - but no sign of any being used on Stansted services again today after Tuesday's 'launch'!

Assuming 7 or 8 units being used on the Norwich line - where are the remainder of the units?

 

[Railperf]

They are brilliant trains to travel on. Light years ahead of what they replaced.

Cannot agree more from a service point of view. These trains have transformed the mainline and regional services. I do remember being crammed on a 153 to Greast Yarmouth - not nice at all.
The 37 hauled/propelled short set was fun from a visual and aural point of view - but those old Mk2's were not very comfy and quite old and dirty - inside and out. But made a nice change from the 156's.

I'm assuming the 'enthusiast' community misses the variety of traction that you used to be able to see at places like Norwich. Now it truly is Stadler land with the punctuated by the odd pair of 321's and EMR DMU's normally 158's and the odd 156.