UK face coverings discussion

[Richard Scott]

If it was such a bad idea to wear masks and just something ‘Cummings came up with’ or something along those lines, NI, Wales and Scotland wouldn’t have done it as well, particularly Scotland.

Wales only have it on public transport, not mandatory in shops etc (yet!). Why wouldn't the others have done it? The actual reason seems to count for nothing, just needs to show that politicians are doing something even if it is pointless. They just put the saving lives spin on it.

 

[PaulMc7]

Personally I think it was peer pressure from the feared section of society that lead to us getting them mandatory in Scotland. If it wasn't for fear driven by the media we may not have had them considering the Scotgov site had been calling the evidence weak up til the last minute before they ended up mandatory on public transport

 

[johnnychips]

Just a note from my visit to Spain: you have to wear masks eveywhere there unless you are drinking, eating, smoking, or on the beach. The compliance was very high, but what did surprise me was
that on Spanish/Catalan television there was no questioning at all that masks were effective or not. Also, there were no exceptions for medical excuses. As expected, those that didn’t follow the rules were young men and women.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any mandating of masks outdoors will lead to serious civil disobedience, as well as cohesion issues. For many it will be the final straw.

Masks outdoors are pointless. It's been shown over and over again that you can cram a load of people in outdoors (e.g. on the beaches reported in the Press) and it barely makes any difference to spread.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Can you provide a link to any evidence that states mask wearing protects others? I've certainly not seen any and neither have many of the posters on this thread.

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Conflicting recommendations exist related to whether masks have a protective effect on the spread of respiratory viruses.The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analysis (PRISMA) statement was consulted to report this systematic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

5. Conclusion
The present systematic review and meta-analysis showed the general efficacy of masks in preventing the transmission of RVIs. Such protective effects of masking are evidentiary for both healthcare and non-healthcare workers and consistent between Asian and Western populations. More evidences are still needed to better clarify the effectiveness of masking in various circumstances.

There's your link. General efficacy established.

Indeed, it’s such a shame what’s happening to the ‘cultural’ side of this country. I don’t know anyone who would choose to visit a museum/gallery in spite of mask laws as it just isn’t enjoyable, and as for cinemas, I don’t even see how they can function with mask laws in place.

Is this really the end of so much of the culture in this country?

You should get out a little more. With a mask.

Cinema - wear mask, watch film. Simples.

 

[bramling]

Masks outdoors are pointless. It's been shown over and over again that you can cram a load of people in outdoors (e.g. on the beaches reported in the Press) and it barely makes any difference to spread.

Do we assume that it must be pubs and restaurants responsible for the recent upturn?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we assume that it must be pubs and restaurants responsible for the recent upturn?

I believe Matt Hancock was quoted as saying that they believe it is people meeting in homes in large numbers with no distancing that are the main issue at present. In pubs distancing is (largely) controlled.

 

[bramling]

I believe Matt Hancock was quoted as saying that they believe it is people meeting in homes in large numbers with no distancing that are the main issue at present. In pubs distancing is (largely) controlled.

Why now, though? Round here people have been meeting up in houses pretty much right through.

There’s been a definite change in the last couple of weeks. This week there’s been a conspicuous party atmosphere in the streets, in pubs and in houses, right through the week even the traditional quiet nights like Monday and Tuesday.

It perhaps doesn’t help that there’s still a lot of people with ad-lib time on their hands.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Why now, though? Round here people have been meeting up in houses pretty much right through.

Complacency, or a higher proportion of the population doing that?

I believe Matt Hancock was quoted as saying that they believe it is people meeting in homes in large numbers with no distancing that are the main issue at present. In pubs distancing is (largely) controlled.

It's all very good policing distancing in pubs by separating tables, but it goes through the window when a group of 10 young adults arrive from 10 different households as 1 party.

 

[Cowley]

You should get out a little more. With a mask.

Cinema - wear mask, watch film. Simples.

Go to the shop (with mask), buy popcorn, beer etc, go home, watch film in comfort of own home on stepsons massive TV with no face mask required whatsoever on comfortable sofa with cat on lap.
Costs nothing and no taxi required.
Simples.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Go to the shop (with mask), buy popcorn, beer etc, go home, watch film in comfort of own home on stepsons massive TV with no face mask required whatsoever on comfortable sofa with cat on lap.
Costs nothing and no taxi required.
Simples.

Popcorn, beer and Netflix sub?

I'd rather do that, even without a mask requirement.

 

[johnnychips]

Go to the shop (with mask), buy popcorn, beer etc, go home, watch film in comfort of own home on stepsons massive TV with no face mask required whatsoever on comfortable sofa with cat on lap.
Costs nothing and no taxi required.
Simples.

No. What will happen is that after five minutes the cat realises you like him, and then starts kneading your testicles and purring. It’s not so uncomfortable that you have to push him off, and you know it’s because he likes you. However, you cannot concentrate on the film.

 

[furlong]

Likely just continued misinformed use of statistics - surely it is it just random noise at these low numbers. People responsible for these sorts of statistics necessarily exaggerate the accuracy of what they are doing and politicians should be calling them out on this. Even if the virus disappeared completely, we'd still be counting false positive test results - the numbers can only drop to zero when you stop testing. Add in positive tests from people who already recovered or are not spreading it for other reasons, and it seems like another storm in a teacup.

What evidence is there that this "increase" (if you believe it is an increase) wasn't caused by the increased mask wearing? (My opinion remains that inappropriate facial covering wearing - i.e. the way the general public are handling their new obligations - is more likely to spread disease than suppress it.)

 

[43066]

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Conflicting recommendations exist related to whether masks have a protective effect on the spread of respiratory viruses.The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analysis (PRISMA) statement was consulted to report this systematic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There's your link. General efficacy established.

That’s just the usual rag tag collection of studies of different kinds of masks, in different settings, across different diseases, with desperate contortions being performed to show little to no benefit. The conclusion you’ve posted above includes the sentence:

“More evidences are still needed to better clarify the effectiveness of masking in various circumstances.”

What strikes me is that the body of evidence(s) that exists now is exactly the same as it was pre Covid. Up until a few weeks ago the overwhelming scientific consensus, based on that evidence, was that there was no overall benefit to masks/face coverings being worn outside clinical settings.

What has changed since then? In scientific terms, absolutely nothing. COVID has come along, and resulted in political pressure in favour of masking up. The WHO has admitted that its position was changed due to political lobbying rather than a change in the science etc.

In short, the available science is now being twisted to suit a changing political narrative. That doesn’t sound particularly “scientific” to me.

The most useful piece of PPE for me in this pandemic so far has been a set of noise cancelling headphones. That way, when someone in a pink hi vi asks me where my mask is, I can’t hear them!

 

[adc82140]

From the start of this pandemic we have been told, quite rightly, not to touch our face. I'm a terrible face toucher and I've made the effort to change my habits. Why then is it now OK to touch our faces in order to fiddle with masks? Why is it OK to close toilet facilities so we cannot wash our hands after doing so?

 

[Deerfold]

Very disappointing to see Transdev ignoring the guidance regarding masks and handing out free ice creams to passengers on buses thus leading them to remove their masks.

https://twitter.com/burnleybuses/status/1289208349066747909

Was rather worried today.

On the day further restrictions were imposed in my area I saw people taking off their mask once one the bus and only about half of people in the bus station wearing masks (many were wearing them on their chin, so not people with a medical reason to not wear them). I had started using buses again but am likely to cut back if people can't follow simple rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the start of this pandemic we have been told, quite rightly, not to touch our face. I'm a terrible face toucher and I've made the effort to change my habits. Why then is it now OK to touch our faces in order to fiddle with masks?

You can adjust a mask without touching the mask part, i.e. using the ear loops.

Why is it OK to close toilet facilities so we cannot wash our hands after doing so?

It isn't, but are any still closed now for reasons that aren't just lack of staffing? PHE had a bee in their bonnet about public toilets early on but that seems to have faded.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The mask debate (careful saying that out loud) really is turning into Brexit II!

the problem is that Wearing a mask does not stop the wearer from getting the disease, merely stops transmission to others. The world now is a much less tolerant place than it was maybe 5-10 years ago. We now live in a much more ‘it’s all about me’ world.

We’ve also got confusing messages from the government which has also at times contradicted the health advisors themselves. We’re told go back to the office, no need to work from home, and we’re told at the same time that we might have gone past the limit of what we should be doing right now.

basically I think the current situation and lack of consistency from anyone is what happens when you let an unelected official (D.C) run the country on slogans and catchphrases and not on policy and promises that are kept.

 

[AdamWW]

The mask debate (careful saying that out loud) really is turning into Brexit II!

Not as bad as the (spoof) radio show that had a Mass Debate.

the problem is that Wearing a mask does not stop the wearer from getting the disease, merely stops transmission to others. The world now is a much less tolerant place than it was maybe 5-10 years ago. We now live in a much more ‘it’s all about me’ world.

From what I've seen, very few of the complaints I've seen here because people don't want to protect others. They've been about whether masks do actually help, and the ssues for those who can't wear them.

basically I think the current situation and lack of consistency from anyone is what happens when you let an unelected official (D.C) run the country on slogans and catchphrases and not on policy and promises that are kept.

Suppose they'd parachuted a special advisor into a safe seat and made then an 'elected official'. What does that actually change?

 

[bramling]

The most useful piece of PPE for me in this pandemic so far has been a set of noise cancelling headphones. That way, when someone in a pink hi vi asks me where my mask is, I can’t hear them!

Like it!

The ones at Euston don’t tend to actually speak to anyone, in fact I’ve not actually seen them do *anything* since they’ve been there, apart from standing around chatting amongst themselves.

I’ve been waiting for something to be said about my lack of mask so I can point out how theirs are invariably incorrectly worn in one way or other (normally round the neck).

 

[Andyh82]

Just a note from my visit to Spain: you have to wear masks eveywhere there unless you are drinking, eating, smoking, or on the beach. The compliance was very high, but what did surprise me was
that on Spanish/Catalan television there was no questioning at all that masks were effective or not. Also, there were no exceptions for medical excuses. As expected, those that didn’t follow the rules were young men and women.

I wonder if all those people who were booking holidays to Spain knew about this?

It’s been said by many that face masks will reduce the number of customers in shops, or travellers on trains, but then they are still happy to wear one permanently for 2 weeks? And in a hot country as well.

 

[Huntergreed]

Just a note from my visit to Spain: you have to wear masks eveywhere there unless you are drinking, eating, smoking, or on the beach. The compliance was very high, but what did surprise me was
that on Spanish/Catalan television there was no questioning at all that masks were effective or not. Also, there were no exceptions for medical excuses. As expected, those that didn’t follow the rules were young men and women.

If this is the case, I would argue Spain is guilty of state-approved discrimination on the grounds of ableism. This is the same country who I believe also committed state-mandated child abuse by depriving children of going outdoors for months. I might think things are unreasonable here, but I sure am thankful that I'm not a Spanish citizen at present

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is the case, I would argue Spain is guilty of state-approved discrimination on the grounds of ableism. This is the same country who I believe also committed state-mandated child abuse by depriving children of going outdoors for months. I might think things are unreasonable here, but I sure am thankful that I'm not a Spanish citizen at present

Indeed. We might differ on the UK approach, but what Spain did, particularly to children, is disgusting.

 

[Southern Dvr]

From what I've seen, very few of the complaints I've seen here because people don't want to protect others. They've been about whether masks do actually help, and the ssues for those who can't wear them.

The issues for those who cannot wear them I’m very sympathetic with, in the society we currently live there’s a lot of judgements going around without any evidence to back them up. Those who will not wear them because they don’t trust the advice that they help, those people I have no sympathy with. I’m not qualified to say whether or not masks do or don’t make a difference and when someone cleverer than me (most) says that they ‘could’ then I’m gonna listen and adjust my life accordingly

Let’s be clear, I don’t enjoy wearing one and despite trying all the hacks they steam up my glasses a lot of the time so I tend to wear a bandana instead which is better.

The mask situation has meant that I’m saving a fortune because when I go the shops I go in and get want and get out. Don’t hang around to browse! Now with the cinema I just wont be able to go, I paid a years membership to Everyman and most likely I’ll not get my money’s worth but I don’t care. It’s just a shame that the government don’t seem to be in touch with reality on the ground if my local cinemas are a guide nationwide, there is not enough people going already to warrant a policy that is effectively for where social distancing is not achievable.

Suppose they'd parachuted a special advisor into a safe seat and made then an 'elected official'. What does that actually change?

it doesn’t change anything. The fact remains that the current government (and heck maybe all of them before it to some extent) is running on slogans catchphrases and throw away remarks. I liken it to those American court room dramas where the lawyer would say something completely wrong and when objected to would withdraw the comment. A bit like a crossed out note on a pad, it’s still there and will never be fully got rid of. So Boris & Cummings can lie and bend the truth or whatever, they’re never properly and fully held to account for what they say and that’s the problem.

 

[trebor79]

The issues for those who cannot wear them I’m very sympathetic with, in the society we currently live there’s a lot of judgements going around without any evidence to back them up. Those who will not wear them because they don’t trust the advice that they help, those people I have no sympathy with. I’m not qualified to say whether or not masks do or don’t make a difference and when someone cleverer than me (most) says that they ‘could’ then I’m gonna listen and adjust my life accordingly

I have no sympathy for those who know it's a nonsense policy, hate wearing them but wear them anyway like sheeple.
Someone made the point earlier in the thread that the government has given no advice on how to wear and use them properly. There's a very good reason for that - it's impossible in almost every scenario. First instruction is - thoroughly wash hands with soap and water. And you're meant to wash again after putting it on. Same procedure for removal.
Can't be done. Educating on proper use would expose this and lead to problems with the more intelligent refusing to wear because it's impossible to do it hygienically.
So it's easier for government to just say "wear a face covering" to avoid all of the inconvenient detail getting in the way.

 

[43066]

The ones at Euston don’t tend to actually speak to anyone, in fact I’ve not actually seen them do *anything* since they’ve been there, apart from standing around chatting amongst themselves.

Much the same as the ones where I am. They were quite overzealous at first, but now seem to spend their shifts staring into their phones. Many of them are still wearing visors with no masks!

I assume these are the “ontrak” people, who also used to stand around doing nothing, but wore yellow rather than pink.

 

[43066]

I have no sympathy for those who know it's a nonsense policy, hate wearing them but wear them anyway like sheeple.

Agreed. What’s most irritating is that the judgmental looks tend to come from muppets who are wearing their own incorrectly!

At first I ignored it, but now I’ve taken to simply staring back until they look away. People really do need to learn to mind their own business. I’m getting more and more irritated the longer this goes on.

 

[bramling]

Agreed. What’s most irritating is that the judgmental looks tend to come from muppets who are wearing their own incorrectly!

At first I ignored it, but now I’ve taken to simply staring back until they look away. People really do need to learn to mind their own business. I’m getting more and more irritated the longer this goes on.

Once again completely agree on all of the above. There’s a lot of hypocrisy out there for sure.

Must admit though, the mask-free seven days of work and work-related travel I’ve just completed has gone pretty smoothly.

 

[yorkie]

...The world now is a much less tolerant place than it was maybe 5-10 years ago. ...

Yes the abuse given to people who are legally exempt can be shocking.

 

[AdamWW]

I have no sympathy for those who know it's a nonsense policy, hate wearing them but wear them anyway like sheeple.
Someone made the point earlier in the thread that the government has given no advice on how to wear and use them properly. There's a very good reason for that - it's impossible in almost every scenario. First instruction is - thoroughly wash hands with soap and water. And you're meant to wash again after putting it on. Same procedure for removal.
Can't be done. Educating on proper use would expose this and lead to problems with the more intelligent refusing to wear because it's impossible to do it hygienically.
So it's easier for government to just say "wear a face covering" to avoid all of the inconvenient detail getting in the way.

Could you maybe find a less derogatory word for people who don't believe that the country would be better off if we all treated the law as optional?

Prove to me that if you use hand sanitizer when removing and replacing a mask instead of soap, the risks of wearing a mask outweighs the benefits.