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UK face coverings discussion

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Puffing Devil

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That’s just the usual rag tag collection of studies of different kinds of masks, in different settings, across different diseases, with desperate contortions being performed to show little to no benefit.

Perhaps you can find a peer-reviewed paper showing that masks have zero effect in reducing the transmission of COVID? Until then, my "rag tag" collection of studies, know in the trade as a "meta-analysis" stands as evidence, as was requested by @Huntergreed, who hasn't had time to dispute it.
 
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Kendalian

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My first shopping visit this morning since the muzzles were mandated, to "big" Tesco.

Compliance about 90%, but nearly everyone was putting mask on at the door on the way in and removing immediately on leaving. Most staff wearing masks but a few exceptions.

MUCH quieter than normal for a Saturday morning; probably about 50% of usual and so quiet, hardly anyone speaking to each other and saw no one speaking to any staff (usually see a few people talking casually to the staff on the shop floor).

All in all a depressing experience. It felt like somewhere you just wanted to be in and out as quickly as possible. Walked past the local "metro" Tesco yesterday afternoon and their car park was nearly empty; it's normally full on a Friday afternoon.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have no sympathy for those who know it's a nonsense policy, hate wearing them but wear them anyway like sheeple.
Someone made the point earlier in the thread that the government has given no advice on how to wear and use them properly. There's a very good reason for that - it's impossible in almost every scenario. First instruction is - thoroughly wash hands with soap and water. And you're meant to wash again after putting it on. Same procedure for removal.
Can't be done. Educating on proper use would expose this and lead to problems with the more intelligent refusing to wear because it's impossible to do it hygienically.

This is false. You can put one on, like the way you do a sticking plaster, without touching either your face or the mask surface. You hold it by, and put it on using, the ear loops.
 

trainophile

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A bloke across the aisle yesterday kept taking his off to have a good cough. Hardly the spirit of the thing.

My issue with the whole concept is that if a mask is sufficiently "breathable" to allow the intake of fresh air, then presumably it is porous to whatever comes out in the opposite direction. We could all wear a plastic bag over our heads, but that is definitely not recommended! The principle is the same though.
 

AdamWW

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A bloke across the aisle yesterday kept taking his off to have a good cough. Hardly the spirit of the thing.

My issue with the whole concept is that if a mask is sufficiently "breathable" to allow the intake of fresh air, then presumably it is porous to whatever comes out in the opposite direction. We could all wear a plastic bag over our heads, but that is definitely not recommended! The principle is the same though.

Er no because the concern is over water droplets with virus particles on. You don't need those to get through a mask in order to breathe.
 

NorthOxonian

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My issue with the whole concept is that if a mask is sufficiently "breathable" to allow the intake of fresh air, then presumably it is porous to whatever comes out in the opposite direction. We could all wear a plastic bag over our heads, but that is definitely not recommended! The principle is the same though.

Even if infected particles can get out of a face covering (I don't know either way), AIUI a covering significantly slows them and reduces how far they can travel.
 

trainophile

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Okay I withdraw my comment regarding that. I do know that I have tried several types of mask and none of them seem to permit comfortable breathing, as each intake draws the mask towards the nose effectively forcing a suction operation, just to get some air into my lungs. I don't think I can be the only one to find this level of discomfort.
 

Bletchleyite

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Okay I withdraw my comment regarding that. I do know that I have tried several types of mask and none of them seem to permit comfortable breathing, as each intake draws the mask towards the nose effectively forcing a suction operation, just to get some air into my lungs. I don't think I can be the only one to find this level of discomfort.

Yes, you do have to inhale very slightly harder with a mask of any kind. However, to most people this isn't actually an issue (over and above mild discomfort) as the muscles involved are very strong indeed (consider an asthmatic breathing during an attack - the muscles are plenty strong enough to get some air in against what is quite a severe obstruction, far more severe than any mask, even if you say put 3 on over the top of each other). This does pose a psychological issue to start with (as you might have when you first take up scuba diving, say) but you do get used to it. If of course you have some sort of lung condition this may be a genuine problem for you (or if you are prone to e.g. panic attacks), and then it's time for an exemption to kick in.
 

Puffing Devil

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My first shopping visit this morning since the muzzles were mandated, to "big" Tesco.

Mask

Muzzle

Strange people in your Tesco!

Compliance about 90%, but nearly everyone was putting mask on at the door on the way in and removing immediately on leaving. Most staff wearing masks but a few exceptions.

No problem with that - not many people enjoy wearing masks. For others, a muzzle is more of a "leisure" activity.

MUCH quieter than normal for a Saturday morning; probably about 50% of usual and so quiet, hardly anyone speaking to each other and saw no one speaking to any staff (usually see a few people talking casually to the staff on the shop floor).

There is a global pandemic. 120 people died yesterday, over 46,000 in the UK. It's hardly party time.

All in all a depressing experience. It felt like somewhere you just wanted to be in and out as quickly as possible. Walked past the local "metro" Tesco yesterday afternoon and their car park was nearly empty; it's normally full on a Friday afternoon.

It's good that people are not hanging around. Until COVID has been controlled, this is the new normal.
 

ainsworth74

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Did a bit of shopping today, including two small independent stores and a supermarket. One of the independents was one customer at a time with customers expected to wear a mask (as did the proprietor to be fair!), the other is a bigger store so could allow quite a few people in but all staff were wearing masks and it seemed all customers were to. At the supermarket it didn't seem any less busy than a few weeks ago and I'd say around 90% of people were wearing masks and maybe 60% of staff. No-one passed out whilst I was in the store too due to lack of oxygen so that was a nice surprise.

Majority of mask wears seemed to be wearing them properly but I still shake my head (metaphorically) at those that just cover their mouths. You've clearly understood the requirement to ware a face covering and don't think your exempt so why fall at the final hurdle?!
 

Journeyman

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Could you maybe find a less derogatory word for people who don't believe that the country would be better off if we all treated the law as optional?

Prove to me that if you use hand sanitizer when removing and replacing a mask instead of soap, the risks of wearing a mask outweighs the benefits.

I'm hugely opposed to mandatory masks, which I consider at best useless, and at worst harmful, but I wear them because I can't be bothered being a martyr about it. A lot of people feel this way.
 

bramling

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Did a bit of shopping today, including two small independent stores and a supermarket. One of the independents was one customer at a time with customers expected to wear a mask (as did the proprietor to be fair!), the other is a bigger store so could allow quite a few people in but all staff were wearing masks and it seemed all customers were to. At the supermarket it didn't seem any less busy than a few weeks ago and I'd say around 90% of people were wearing masks and maybe 60% of staff. No-one passed out whilst I was in the store too due to lack of oxygen so that was a nice surprise.

Majority of mask wears seemed to be wearing them properly but I still shake my head (metaphorically) at those that just cover their mouths. You've clearly understood the requirement to ware a face covering and don't think your exempt so why fall at the final hurdle?!

In the latter case presumably it’s one of (1) don’t fully understand the requirement, (2) the mask keeps slipping down, or (3) they don’t really buy-in to the whole thing and are just doing the minimum possible to keep the peace.

As to how the disposition falls between the three subsets who knows.
 

DB

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Perhaps you can find a peer-reviewed paper showing that masks have zero effect in reducing the transmission of COVID? Until then, my "rag tag" collection of studies, know in the trade as a "meta-analysis" stands as evidence, as was requested by @Huntergreed, who hasn't had time to dispute it.
43066 has already pointed out the issues.

In all situations like this, the onus is on the person claiming it works to show that, not on others to show that it doesn't. Can you prove that the fairies at the bottom of the garden don't exist?
 

43066

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Perhaps you can find a peer-reviewed paper showing that masks have zero effect in reducing the transmission of COVID? Until then, my "rag tag" collection of studies, know in the trade as a "meta-analysis" stands as evidence, as was requested by @Huntergreed, who hasn't had time to dispute it.

Asking me to prove a negative is ridiculous. You don’t assume a theory is correct until someone proves it’s wrong - and laws certainly should not be made on that basis.

You’ve ignored the rest of what I said above. The WHO has admitted that it has changed its stance due to political pressure. The established consensus up until this pandemic was that masks have not made a material difference. There has been no new evidence published by the government to support the theory that masks make a material difference.

Even the government‘s own mealy mouthed guidance merely states that face coverings may make a difference.

Matt Hancock himself has stated that the science is weak as recently as April:


The Health Secretary added: “The UK government position hasn’t changed, not least because the most important thing people can do is the social distancing as opposed to the weak science on face masks.

Best I can tell little has been published since which changes that! No doubt if they change the advice next week you’ll be on here, spouting it as gospel, challenging anyone who disagrees to prove a negative.

If you wish to slavishly believe the latest u turning, flip-flopping position this government adopts as it flails around, urinating into the wind, that’s up to you. I am going to continue to ignore it!
 

trainophile

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In the heat of yesterday, on the three trains I took, probably about half the passengers were either wearing their mask under their nose or holding it away from their face, just to be able to breathe. Of course when you're suffering such discomfort and one person takes their off it is very tempting to do likewise. Most of us were simply going through the motions, so to speak, rather than because we felt compelled to comply. All the trains were absolutely sweltering, one even seemed to be pumping out warm air. Travel was not an enjoyable experience yesterday, even though they were pretty lightly loaded and social distancing was in operation.
 

Kendalian

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I'm hugely opposed to mandatory masks, which I consider at best useless, and at worst harmful, but I wear them because I can't be bothered being a martyr about it. A lot of people feel this way.

Agreed. Wearing masks doesn't necessarily mean support for the policy, contrary to what Cummings Boris would like us to think.

"Compliance" = how many people were wearing masks last Friday. "Support" = how many were wearing them last Thursday!
 

Puffing Devil

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43066 has already pointed out the issues.

In all situations like this, the onus is on the person claiming it works to show that, not on others to show that it doesn't. Can you prove that the fairies at the bottom of the garden don't exist?

Laughable. The paper is valid.

Here's a question for you: Would you be ok with people possibly infected with COVID coughing in your face, or would you rather they be wearing a mask when they cough on you?


Try Youtubing (if there is such a verb) Jenny Harries Face Masks :rolleyes:

Youtube and Peer-Reviewed Paper? Really?
 

Kendalian

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Perhaps you can find a peer-reviewed paper showing that masks have zero effect in reducing the transmission of COVID? Until then, my "rag tag" collection of studies, know in the trade as a "meta-analysis" stands as evidence, as was requested by @Huntergreed, who hasn't had time to dispute it.

Try Youtubing (if there is such a verb) Jenny Harries Face Masks :rolleyes:
 

farleigh

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Mask

Muzzle

Strange people in your Tesco!



No problem with that - not many people enjoy wearing masks. For others, a muzzle is more of a "leisure" activity.



There is a global pandemic. 120 people died yesterday, over 46,000 in the UK. It's hardly party time.



It's good that people are not hanging around. Until COVID has been controlled, this is the new normal.
Agreed. Wearing masks doesn't necessarily mean support for the policy, contrary to what Cummings Boris would like us to think.

"Compliance" = how many people were wearing masks last Friday. "Support" = how many were wearing them last Thursday!
Your last point is very good. If people believed in them and supported the idea then they would have been wearing them before they were mandatory.
 

Journeyman

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Laughable. The paper is valid.

Here's a question for you: Would you be ok with people possibly infected with COVID coughing in your face, or would you rather they be wearing a mask when they cough on you?

I'd be bothered with *anyone* coughing in my face, but it's never actually happened...ever.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Would you be ok with people possibly infected with COVID coughing in your face, or would you rather they be wearing a mask when they cough on you?
I'm not sure what planet you live on where people cough on each other, but pandemic or not, in the UK, it's not what society does.
 

DB

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Laughable. The paper is valid.

Here's a question for you: Would you be ok with people possibly infected with COVID coughing in your face, or would you rather they be wearing a mask when they cough on you?

As with other papers quoted by the maskivist element on here, that does not demonstrate that masks offer any benefit in the general community.

Maybe it's just me, but I would regard it as not acceptable to cough on someone at all, mask or no mask.
 

Puffing Devil

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I'd be bothered with *anyone* coughing in my face, but it's never actually happened...ever.
I'm not sure what planet you live on where people cough on each other, but pandemic or not, in the UK, it's not what society does.
I'd be bothered with *anyone* coughing in my face, but it's never actually happened...ever.

People do cough in public:

A bloke across the aisle yesterday kept taking his off to have a good cough. Hardly the spirit of the thing.

Not one of you has answered the direct question. If you are sure that masks offer no protection, you'd be happy with someone possibly infected with COVID coughing towards you without a mask.
 

farleigh

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People do cough in public:



Not one of you has answered the direct question. If you are sure that masks offer no protection, you'd be happy with someone possibly infected with COVID coughing towards you without a mask.
You said coughing in your face. I have no problem with people coughing in public. They could always use their elbow but I won't be worried if they don't.
 
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