UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

You said coughing in your face. I have no problem with people coughing in public. They could always use their elbow but I won't be worried if they don't.

Likewise. Really not bothered about it.

 

[farleigh]

Peer reviewed!

 

[DB]

YouTube and peer-reviewed evidence do not go hand in hand.

Do you know who Jenny Harries is? We aren't talking some uninformed YouTuber here...

 

[43066]

People do cough in public:



Not one of you has answered the direct question. If you are sure that masks offer no protection, you'd be happy with someone possibly infected with COVID coughing towards you without a mask.

Probably because it’s a rather silly question.

I wouldn’t be happy with anyone “coughing in face”, as you said before, because it’s bad manners to do so, mask or not. Maybe the people you associate with take a different view?!

What exactly does that prove?

 

[trebor79]

Could you maybe find a less derogatory word for people who don't believe that the country would be better off if we all treated the law as optional?

The law is optional if you happen to be named Dominic Cummings.
And Boris illegally prorogued parliament.

I happen to believe that the enforcement of mask wearing is illegal as the Public Health Act emergency powers specifically exclude mandating prophylactic treatment.
Wouldn't be the first time this bunch of clowns have knowingly broken the law, secure in the knowledge they'll get away with it.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You said coughing in your face. I have no problem with people coughing in public. They could always use their elbow but I won't be worried if they don't.

A person, in public, turns around in the supermarket, unaware you are behind them and unintentionally coughs in your face. Would you prefer that they were wearing a mask?

(Of course, we would prefer that they didn't, that they had time to use their elbow, or whatever other spurious excuses you can find.)

Probably because it’s a rather silly question.

I wouldn’t be happy with anyone “coughing in face”, as you said before, because it’s bad manners to do so, mask or not. Maybe the people you associate with take a different view?!

What exactly does that prove?

If you are so sure that masks provide no protection from COVID, you would be happy to accept the cough. Simple.

 

[trebor79]

A person, in public, turns around in the supermarket, unaware you are behind them and unintentionally coughs in your face. Would you prefer that they were wearing a mask?

This has literally never happened to me, in a supermarket or elsewhere. It's a vanishingly small risk.

 

[farleigh]

A person, in public, turns around in the supermarket, unaware you are behind them and unintentionally coughs in your face. Would you prefer that they were wearing a mask?

(Of course, we would prefer that they didn't, that they had time to use their elbow, or whatever other spurious excuses you can find.)

Not bothered in the slightest. You should wear a visor if you are that worried - protect your eyes.

 

[DB]

A person, in public, turns around in the supermarket, unaware you are behind them and unintentionally coughs in your face. Would you prefer that they were wearing a mask?

(Of course, we would prefer that they didn't, that they had time to use their elbow, or whatever other spurious excuses you can find.)

I would think them bloody rude because it's normal to look before you cough, but would I be concerned because of Covid? No.

Let's ask you one. If someone was constantly fiddling with their mask, i.e. like most people, would you be concerned about touching something they had touched, such as a credit card reader?

 

[westv]

Not one of you has answered the direct question. If you are sure that masks offer no protection, you'd be happy with someone possibly infected with COVID coughing towards you without a mask.

Whether masks offer protection or not I doubt anybody would be "happy" to have someone cough in their face today, tomorrow or next year.

 

[43066]

If you are so sure that masks provide no protection from COVID, you would be happy to accept the cough. Simple.

My view of being coughed on hasn’t changed since before the pandemic. I’d rather not be, but it makes no difference whether someone is wearing a mask or not.

I’m no more worried about catching Covid than a dose of the flu - is that what you’re really asking?

 

[Enthusiast]

Until then, my "rag tag" collection of studies, know in the trade as a "meta-analysis" stands as evidence,

Does it sat anything about the considerably added risk to an untrained wearer?

You can adjust a mask without touching the mask part, i.e. using the ear loops.

This is false. You can put one on, like the way you do a sticking plaster, without touching either your face or the mask surface. You hold it by, and put it on using, the ear loops.

I tell you what. Have a stroll round MK shopping centre. Count how many people are wearing their masks incorrectly or who fiddle with them, adjust them, pull them up and down when entering and leaving shops, stuff them in their pockets and pull them out again, pull them down to speak on the phone (all without washing or sanitising their hands), walk around with them round their chin or neck. Then count those wearing them correctly who do none of those things and so present no such risks to themselves. You then give a pound to a charity of my my choice for the number in the first category (which will include me if I happened to be there and I'd reversed my decision not to wear a mask) and I'll give a pound to one of your choice for the number in the second. See whose charity benefits most.

Why would surgeons wear them otherwise?

Because surgeons work where their patients - often with reduced immune systems - lie on a table in front of them usually with an open wound. Furthermore, surgeons and their colleagues - indeed all patient-facing medical professionals - have been trained in the correct use of PPE and are disciplined in its use. You, I and the man on the Clapham omnibus are not.

Before the mask nonsense reared its head I was meticulous in avoiding touching my face whilst I was out. I've allowed itches to go unscratched, watering eyes to remain unwiped. It was one thing I could easily do which seemed to make sense. Now, when wearing a mask, despite your assurances, I can't do that. I am one of the 99% who would need to adjust a face mask when I'm out. It doesn't fit like a surgeon's (whose usually tie at the back with two fastenings, one top and one bottom and is usually a two person job to fit properly). It slides down, it moves and it needs adjustment which cannot be achieved from the ear straps. They should also not be worn for prolonged periods without changing. The only government guidance there has been is how to make one out of a T-shirt. Quite frankly, you couldn't make it up.

 

[Journeyman]

You said coughing in your face. I have no problem with people coughing in public. They could always use their elbow but I won't be worried if they don't.

Anyone coughing in anyone's face is obnoxious at any time. People coughing in public? Couldn't care less, mask or not.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I’m no more worried about catching Covid than a dose of the flu - is that what you’re really asking?

At least we have one honest answer.

Do you know who Jenny Harries is? We aren't talking some uninformed YouTuber here...

You do know the difference between unsupported and unreviewed comments on a breakfast TV show and a peer-reviewed paper?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

You do know the difference between unsupported and unreviewed comments on a breakfast TV show and a peer-reviewed paper?

You do know who Jenny Harries is, and where she said this about masks, yes?

 

[yorkie]

TfL rail announcement says face coverings cannot be removed for any reason; is that correct? Do separate byelaws prevent eating/drinking on their trains?

They also say the fine for not wearing one is £1,000. However a couple of days ago Chiltern said the fine is £100. Do TfL have byelaws increasing the fine to £1,000?

TfL have not mentioned exemptions so I wouldn't be surprised if some exempt people receive abuse on their services, as we have seen elsewhere (the worst example being the Merseyrail incident involving a deaf person, which was caught on video)

 

[Puffing Devil]

You do know who Jenny Harries is, and where she said this about masks, yes?

All I know is that I was asked to "Try Youtubing (if there is such a verb) Jenny Harries Face Masks".

 

[Puffing Devil]

I would think them bloody rude because it's normal to look before you cough, but would I be concerned because of Covid? No.

Like many anti-maskers you have a low personal concern for catching COVID. Fair enough.

Do you have any concerns for those who have a greater concern that you may pass it on to, should you become infected.

Let's ask you one. If someone was constantly fiddling with their mask, i.e. like most people, would you be concerned about touching something they had touched, such as a credit card reader?

Yes, I would. I would protect myself by hand washing. I can't protect myself if they cough near me.

 

[DB]

Like many anti-maskers you have a low personal concern for catching COVID. Fair enough.

Do you have any concerns for those who have a greater concern that you may pass it on to, should you become infected.

Yes, I would. I would protect myself by hand washing. I can't protect myself if they cough near me.

Ah, we're back to one of the many variations on the 'you could kill people' hypothesis! Given that I have seen no evidence that masks work, I don't think the point is relevant.

If you had handled your shopping, would you wash that too? How about credit card and wallet?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Given that I have seen no evidence that masks work, I don't think the point is relevant.

You've chosen to ignore the evidence presented and have no credible counter-evidence.

Ah, we're back to one of the many variations on the 'you could kill people' hypothesis!

Did I say you could kill people? Or are you making a massive leap?

 

[87electric]

The only government guidance there has been is how to make one out of a T-shirt. Quite frankly, you couldn't make it up.

Indeed.
Follow the science? Use a worn T-shirt over your face? It’s all a joke.

 

[DB]

You've chosen to ignore the evidence presented and have no credible counter-evidence.

Did I say you could kill people? Or are you making a massive leap?

The evidence presented is not at all convincing and as has already been pointed out it is not normal to 'prove' a negative, in any field. The onus is on the proposer to demonstrate that what they propose is true. And in scientific circles it normally has to be compelling evidence if any widespread action is to be taken.

I think it's fair to say that you implied that it could kill people. After all, if not then thete wouldn't be any cause to be concerned, would there?

 

[Puffing Devil]

The evidence presented is not at all convincing and as has already been pointed out it is not normal to 'prove' a negative, in any field. The onus is on the proposer to demonstrate that what they propose is true. And in scientific circles it normally has to be compelling evidence if any widespread action is to be taken.

Do any of your "scientific circles" ever talk about rejecting the null hypothesis? It was at the heart of experimental design and research when I was in a "scientific circle". Maybe your circles are different to mine?

I think it's fair to say that you implied that it could kill people. After all, if not then thete wouldn't be any cause to be concerned, would there?

You may think it's fair, I do not.

I asked if you were concerned about passing the virus on to others, should you become infected. You lept to killing. Guilty conscience? Freudian slip?

 

[island]

I'm hugely opposed to mandatory masks, which I consider at best useless, and at worst harmful, but I wear them because I can't be bothered being a martyr about it. A lot of people feel this way.

I am also in this boat.

TfL rail announcement says face coverings cannot be removed for any reason; is that correct? Do separate byelaws prevent eating/drinking on their trains?

They also say the fine for not wearing one is £1,000. However a couple of days ago Chiltern said the fine is £100. Do TfL have byelaws increasing the fine to £1,000?

TfL have not mentioned exemptions so I wouldn't be surprised if some exempt people receive abuse on their services, as we have seen elsewhere (the worst example being the Merseyrail incident involving a deaf person, which was caught on video)

Yes, separate byelaws apply on TfL services. TfL has purported to issue a “safety instruction” under byelaw 12 which goes further than the government issued regulations; for example, they purport to require a mask on uncovered platforms. The fine on prosecution under section 12 of the TfL byelaws is up to £1,000. I am doubtful of the enforceability of the “safety instructions” but I am not a court.

Exemptions apply under the government regulations, but not (apparently) the “safety instruction”, for removing masks to eat or drink if eating or drinking is reasonable in the circumstances. What is reasonable will depend on the circumstances. I expect there will be at least some circumstances under which it is reasonable to eat or drink on a TfL Rail service, but again, I am not a court.

 

[DB]

Do any of your "scientific circles" ever talk about rejecting the null hypothesis? It was at the heart of experimental design and research when I was in a "scientific circle". Maybe your circles are different to mine?

You may think it's fair, I do not.

I asked if you were concerned about passing the virus on to others, should you become infected. You lept to killing. Guilty conscience? Freudian slip?

Afraid I don't see how the concept of the null hypothesis makes any difference to the argument you are making.

As regards the second point, do you normally wear a mask in case you have pre-symptomatic cold or flu and pass that on? I would suspect not. If the masks aren't because this virus is allegedly so dangerous and might kill people, then what are they for?

 

[LowLevel]

In the meantime despite all predictions of gloom I've just finished another Saturday shift on the trains far busier week on week. I've been into town a few times as well and it also seems just as busy. Mask wearing seems to be pretty prevalent still with getting on for 100% compliance on the trains and in shops. Most people seem to be getting on with it. It would be interesting to see some solid figures for store visitors etc.

 

[yorksrob]

In the meantime despite all predictions of gloom I've just finished another Saturday shift on the trains far busier week on week. I've been into town a few times as well and it also seems just as busy. Mask wearing seems to be pretty prevalent still with getting on for 100% compliance on the trains and in shops. Most people seem to be getting on with it. It would be interesting to see some solid figures for store visitors etc.

Absolutely.

As Churchill said, KBO (Keep Buggering On).

 

[MontyMinerWA]

It's worth perhaps mentioning here that in Italy pretty much everyone wears a mask in the street without grumbling.

 

[Journeyman]

It's worth perhaps mentioning here that in Italy pretty much everyone wears a mask in the street without grumbling.

That is something I am absolutely not willing to tolerate.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

That is something I am absolutely not willing to tolerate.

And yet in Milan they are. Why not be like Milan?