Bakerloo line: an embarrassment to London?

[Mikey C]

The Bakerloo is fun really - seeing people being surprised by the adjacent trains on the crossover at the north end of Picc Circus. Some tourist in the front coach of a northbound recently jumped when they heard a southbound rushing a few inches behind them.

The 2 southbound branches of the Northern Line leaving Camden pass really close together as well, quite amusing to be able to see right into another train while in a deep tunnel!

 

[Busaholic]

It'll still get you from Oxford Circus to Paddington, which is more than a years late, enormously expensive, over-complicated grandiose project can do, and I expect this situation will remain the same over the next few years, possibly forever.

 

[stuu]

It'll still get you from Oxford Circus to Paddington, which is more than a years late, enormously expensive, over-complicated grandiose project can do, and I expect this situation will remain the same over the next few years, possibly forever.

People said the same sort of things about the Jubilee line extension. Oddly you don't hear that much any more

 

[rebmcr]

It'll still get you from Oxford Circus to Paddington, which is more than a years late, enormously expensive, over-complicated grandiose project can do, and I expect this situation will remain the same over the next few years, possibly forever.

My vote is for "forever" when considering the fact that the Elizabeth Line has no station at Oxford Circus.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The 2 southbound branches of the Northern Line leaving Camden pass really close together as well, quite amusing to be able to see right into another train while in a deep tunnel!

Even more dramatic, I find, is when you get a northbound from the Charing Cross branch going in the Highgate direction, entering the station simultaneously with a northbound from the Bank branch heading to Edgware, The original northbound route for the Charing Cross branch had almost a straight run into the Edgware platform, with a fork off to the right shortly before the station, to head to the northbound Highgate platform. But after the link up with the City branch, only the "right turn" there is used by the ChX branch (its Edgware trains diverging well before the station and arriving at the station from a different angle). But the fork is now used to access both northbound platforms by Bank trains - they merge from the left as you get to the fork, with the option of going what is for them straight ahead for the Highgate branch, or swerving to the left to pick up the Edgware platform.

This means that in the scenario given above, the two train routes are converging as they meet in what was a tunnel junction but is now an X-shaped tunnel intersection, and both trains take quite a sharp turn as they almost meet and swerve away from each other, running parallel for moments, going at a fair speed, seemingly only inches apart. If you're on the left-hand side of a ChX-Highgate train as it gets to that intersection, and you're not seeming to almost collide with a Bank-Edgware at the time, you can see the Edgware platform dead ahead as your train lurches to the right.

The reason I said this is more dramatic than the similar southbound scenario mentioned is that (a) the speed at the intersection seems higher northbound, and (b) going north the trains on both routes swerve away from one another, whilst on the southbound, one of them keeps fairly straight on (as I remember).

NB - anyone interested in this who looks for any old (or new) "cut-away" or 3-D drawings of these intersecting and interweaving tunnels will find a basic error in many of them (including in the case of a classic one from the 1920s which is frequently reprinted). They often have the labelling of the routes south of the intersections to and from the ChX branch and to and from the Bank Branch the wrong way round, the latter obviously (well, it's obvious with a only a moment's thought) being the ones on the west side south of Camden Town. This mislabelling is self-evident from what you experience in the tunnels themselves, if you actually use trains running through there. But I guess such diagrams are often produced by people who don't use those trains, and/or by people with no sense of direction or spatial awareness - perhaps they're the sort who, if they use proper maps at all, turn them upside down if they're facing south...

 

[Scotrail314209]

One thing I really don’t like about the Bakerloo line is the gap at Waterloo. I’ve never seen such a big gap like that. Surely that’s an issue with accessibility as I was quite worried about falling down the gap.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

My least favourite tube line. The trains always feel the most run-down of any line to me. Yes it feels like a bit of a time capsule, but only from the 90s which isn't long enough ago to be nostalgic! And I find catching it on the Overground bit irrationally infuriating - the massive step down into a low ceilinged car makes the train feel like it was designed for children.

 

[kristiang85]

As others have said, I personally like the Bakerloo - it feels a bit museumy and has a lot of character. Also I never find it that crowded, which is always a bonus.

Obviously it has to modernise at some point, but I don't resent it in its current state.

 

[London Trains]

The main problem is that the line has duplicated lines in places, and has slowly become more useless as other lines have opened.

The Jubilee Line took away one of its branches, and its main purpose of Baker Street to Waterloo, which is even shown in its name.

The line already duplicates the subsurface lines between Paddington - Edgware Road - Baker Street, with the subsurface lines having better quality trains. Regents Park is also very close to Great Portland Street.

Between Harrow and Wealdstone and Queens Park, the Overground runs along the same route, with much better rolling stock, and better connections at Euston. Kilburn Park is also very close to Kilburn High Road. Post HS2, the Overground frequency may be able to increase.

When Crossrail opens, passenger levels will continue to decrease. Paddington to Oxford Circus will be faster on Crossrail alighting at Bond Street, Waterloo faster via Crossrail and the Jubilee line, Charing Cross faster changing at TCR onto the Northern Line and Elephant and Castle faster changing onto Thameslink at Farringdon.

Also, Marylebone will see a decrease in usage when some Chiltern services are diverted to OOC.

Frankly, I could see the Bakerloo closing without too much issue once Crossrail is open. Baker Street to Marylebone could become an advertised interchange. The only issue I see would be Maida Vale, which is not particularly close to any other tube or train stations.

 

[Dstock7080]

The main problem is that the line has duplicated lines in places, and has slowly become more useless as other lines have opened.

The Jubilee Line took away one of its branches, and its main purpose of Baker Street to Waterloo, which is even shown in its name.

The Jubilee Line was constructed to alleviate the most congested part of the Bakerloo.

 

[Mikey C]

The main problem is that the line has duplicated lines in places, and has slowly become more useless as other lines have opened.

The Jubilee Line took away one of its branches, and its main purpose of Baker Street to Waterloo, which is even shown in its name.

The line already duplicates the subsurface lines between Paddington - Edgware Road - Baker Street, with the subsurface lines having better quality trains. Regents Park is also very close to Great Portland Street.

Between Harrow and Wealdstone and Queens Park, the Overground runs along the same route, with much better rolling stock, and better connections at Euston. Kilburn Park is also very close to Kilburn High Road. Post HS2, the Overground frequency may be able to increase.

When Crossrail opens, passenger levels will continue to decrease. Paddington to Oxford Circus will be faster on Crossrail alighting at Bond Street, Waterloo faster via Crossrail and the Jubilee line, Charing Cross faster changing at TCR onto the Northern Line and Elephant and Castle faster changing onto Thameslink at Farringdon.

Also, Marylebone will see a decrease in usage when some Chiltern services are diverted to OOC.

Frankly, I could see the Bakerloo closing without too much issue once Crossrail is open. Baker Street to Marylebone could become an advertised interchange. The only issue I see would be Maida Vale, which is not particularly close to any other tube or train stations.

A number of Chiltern passengers walk to Baker Street for onward connections as it's much better connected than Marylebone, while others cram on the Bakerloo Line for one stop!

 

[Class465pacer]

Could the trains end up going for 60 years in service? I heard the Bakerloo is the last to get new trains, which could be in the 2030s.

 

[rebmcr]

A number of Chiltern passengers walk to Baker Street for onward connections as it's much better connected than Marylebone, while others cram on the Bakerloo Line for one stop!

The one stop is worth it for the Jubilee with its cross-passage interchange, but not for the Circle/Metropolitan.

 

[stuu]

Frankly, I could see the Bakerloo closing without too much issue once Crossrail is open. Baker Street to Marylebone could become an advertised interchange. The only issue I see would be Maida Vale, which is not particularly close to any other tube or train stations.

I can't imagine that ever happening. Whilst it is going to lose a chunk of it's customers when Crossrail opens, it provides a lot of other links which aren't duplicated. Coming from the Harrow direction, in my experience 75% of passengers get off Overground trains and change to the Bakerloo - Euston is not an important destination as such. Also the existence of the Bakerloo line as an option means that other parallel links like the Jubilee have less passengers and makes the network much more resilient

Could the trains end up going for 60 years in service? I heard the Bakerloo is the last to get new trains, which could be in the 2030s.

Almost certainly, unless there is a major turnaround in TfL's finances in the next 4-5 years

 

[Busaholic]

My vote is for "forever" when considering the fact that the Elizabeth Line has no station at Oxford Circus.

Just like it doesn't have a station at Moorgate: I suspect that if/when the thing ever opens it may well have to adopt a Chatelet/Les Halles solution to nomenclature at both the stations nominally entitled Bond Street and Liverpool Street at present, in an attempt to avoid at least some of the confusion that will ensue, particularly among tourists. In Paris, of course with its gloriously simplified fare structure, there'd be no financial penalty for the passenger getting it slightly wrong.

 

[rebmcr]

Just like it doesn't have a station at Moorgate: I suspect that if/when the thing ever opens it may well have to adopt a Chatelet/Les Halles solution to nomenclature at both the stations nominally entitled Bond Street and Liverpool Street at present, in an attempt to avoid at least some of the confusion that will ensue, particularly among tourists. In Paris, of course with its gloriously simplified fare structure, there'd be no financial penalty for the passenger getting it slightly wrong.

The Elizabeth Line station named Moorgate-Liverpool Street absolutely has entrances at both.

Bond Street's closest entrance (Hanover Square) requires a 250m walk along public roads to reach Oxford Circus.

 

[Mikey C]

The Elizabeth Line station named Moorgate-Liverpool Street absolutely has entrances at both.

Bond Street's closest entrance (Hanover Square) requires a 250m walk along public roads to reach Oxford Circus.

But then how many people going to Oxford Circus are literally going to that location, as opposed to the general area? If you were going to say Hamley's for example then Hanover Square is just as near as Oxford Circus, while for parts of Soho the western ticket hall exit from Tottenham Court Road will also be really convenient

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The Bakerloo Line is okay. The trains feel like "proper" Underground trains and the seats are snug and cozy. Also quite an atmospheric line. However, I do wish they'd get rid of that smell of Vomit that has plauged all the Central London stations for the past 20 years.

 

[bramling]

Could the trains end up going for 60 years in service? I heard the Bakerloo is the last to get new trains, which could be in the 2030s.

Yes it’s not inconceivable. They would have to last a year or two beyond 2032 for that, although some of the earlier MkI units in the fleet (those numbered XX64 and above) will have entered service slightly earlier.

It all depends on what happens over the next decade in terms of fleet plans, which will itself be tied to things like funding, the proposed extension, how reliable the trains continue to be, and whether the engineering enhancements manage to turn round the reliability of the Central Line fleet enough that they can be kept going to an acceptable standard. Anyone for a crystal ball?

 

[rebmcr]

But then how many people going to Oxford Circus are literally going to that location, as opposed to the general area? If you were going to say Hamley's for example then Hanover Square is just as near as Oxford Circus, while for parts of Soho the western ticket hall exit from Tottenham Court Road will also be really convenient

In my experience people refer to the area in general as "Oxford Street".

 

[Busaholic]

People said the same sort of things about the Jubilee line extension. Oddly you don't hear that much any more

The Jubilee extension was a smidgeon late in comparison with this fiasco's most optimistic forecasts, and is totally unalogous because the sensible, pragmatic decision was made to alter the complex signalling to a less complex but proven system before it was too late, with the possibility of introducing improvements at a later date. If something similar had happened here (a decision to scrap platform doors for the present might have made the difference) then the central section (bar Bond Street) might be opening imminently. In the case of the Jubilee, we had a P.M. who considered it absolutely imperative that the line to North Greenwich was open in time for the Millennium and made sure that message was communicated to John Prescott, who no doubt bullied London Regional Transport to help achieve that aim.

 

[bramling]

The Jubilee extension was a smidgeon late in comparison with this fiasco's most optimistic forecasts, and is totally unalogous because the sensible, pragmatic decision was made to alter the complex signalling to a less complex but proven system before it was too late, with the possibility of introducing improvements at a later date. If something similar had happened here (a decision to scrap platform doors for the present might have made the difference) then the central section (bar Bond Street) might be opening imminently. In the case of the Jubilee, we had a P.M. who considered it absolutely imperative that the line to North Greenwich was open in time for the Millennium and made sure that message was communicated to John Prescott, who no doubt bullied London Regional Transport to help achieve that aim.

It’s quite surreal in retrospect just how much the JLE was driven by the need to be ready in time for the dome, which when one looks back was really quite a minor thing. Who even remembers “the millennium dome” now?

I am surprised Canary Wharf group haven’t kicked up more of a fuss over Crossrail, though of course with Covid their place is a bit of a ghost town now!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I am surprised Canary Wharf group haven’t kicked up more of a fuss over Crossrail,

They seem to be more focused on getting rid of the Cycle Superhighways across London than anything else.

 

[stuu]

The Jubilee extension was a smidgeon late in comparison with this fiasco's most optimistic forecasts, and is totally unalogous because the sensible, pragmatic decision was made to alter the complex signalling to a less complex but proven system before it was too late, with the possibility of introducing improvements at a later date. If something similar had happened here (a decision to scrap platform doors for the present might have made the difference) then the central section (bar Bond Street) might be opening imminently. In the case of the Jubilee, we had a P.M. who considered it absolutely imperative that the line to North Greenwich was open in time for the Millennium and made sure that message was communicated to John Prescott, who no doubt bullied London Regional Transport to help achieve that aim.

It was two and a half years late, and cost double the budget. Cost overruns were because the planned moving block signalling couldn't be made to work and the complexity of building the stations. Yes a chunk of the cost was down to an immovable deadline but to say it's unanalogous is a bit of a stretch. The platform doors are a very minor issue compared to the transitions between signalling systems

 

[rebmcr]

The phrase "Thameslink 2000" springs to mind. Crossrail is still doing better by comparison!

 

[MikeWh]

Who even remembers “the millennium dome” now?

Me!

One of the best days out in my life, once the price had come down to a reasonable level.

 

[BrianW]

Milennium Dome. Fabulous, innovative structure, difficult ground, low cost per sq m, on time ... great design and Project Management. Still going as O2 (pre-Covid).
Shame the Bakerloo doesn't go there; yet??

 

[Hadders]

The Jubilee extension was a smidgeon late in comparison with this fiasco's most optimistic forecasts

ISTR it being over 2 years late, possibly closer to 3 in the end. There was a right old fuss in the media at the time.

It’s quite surreal in retrospect just how much the JLE was driven by the need to be ready in time for the dome, which when one looks back was really quite a minor thing. Who even remembers “the millennium dome” now?

It opened in stages (Stratford to North Greenwich was the first bit). I strongly suspect that the immovable deadline of the Millennium played a large part in getting open by the end of 1999, otherwise I suspect it would have been delayed even longer. Westminster Station opened literally at the last minute on something like 21 December.

 

[Busaholic]

It was two and a half years late, and cost double the budget. Cost overruns were because the planned moving block signalling couldn't be made to work and the complexity of building the stations. Yes a chunk of the cost was down to an immovable deadline but to say it's unanalogous is a bit of a stretch. The platform doors are a very minor issue compared to the transitions between signalling systems

Okay, I overstated it a bit, but part of that delay was due to collapse of tunnelling at Heathrow causing all other projects to be halted for a while, from memory. Platform doors in themselves might be a minor issue, but allied to the signalling I've read they're more major! A comparison with Boeing might be apposite in some ways i.e. how a reputation can be destroyed within weeks and months when it becomes obvious that problems and flaws were deliberately overlooked or lied about, in order to retain status and bonuses. In the case of Boeing, of course, these led to all the deaths resulting from two aircraft crashes that needn't have occurred.

 

[3rd rail land]

I like that the stations look a bit old, 'retro' if you will, compared to many other stations. The stations are clean and serve their purpose perfectly adequately.

I used to like riding on the older trains on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines but I do think it is time they were replaced with something more modern. I realise this will be at least a few years away though. Does LUL even have the funds to replace these trains?