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Why not more tilting stock?

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Jozhua

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I forsee Pendolinos continuing to operate on the network until HS2 opens, unless Avanti is planning on replacing the units entirely? I know the 221's are going to be replaced.

Phase 1 is estimated to open in 2033 and I think we'll be able to reach that goal. HS1 opened on time and 2033 seems like a fairly conservative estimate. Obviously Crossrail is facing delays, but the two projects are pretty different. Pretty sure HS2 is just tunnelling under most of London.
 
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Huntergreed

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If we think of how the WCML is laid out and where the TASS function is used and to what extent it speeds journeys up, it should hopefully become increasingly obvious that tilt on HS2 and future WCML stock isn't really a necessity.

Let's start up at Glasgow, the whole line from Glasgow - Carstairs has no TASS function, bar a short section of TASS on the down main on the straight between Law Junction and Motherwell through Shieldmuir, where the track is TASS enabled up to 105mph (for a short time of this, the conventional PSR is 105 before this reduces to 90 EPS105). Say that gives us 2 minutes of running at 15mph faster on this straight piece of track, that means a tilting train would be running approximately 0.5 miles ahead of a non-tilting train, which at speeds of around 90mph, gives you a time saving of roughly 20 seconds). 20 seconds worth of saving on the entire 25 miles between Carstairs and Shieldmuir (and only in one direction) does not justify the cost of a tilting train.

From Carstairs - Lockerbie, the line speeds vary greatly. Between Carstairs and Lamington, the linespeed is 125 throughout (reducing to 120 over Lamington viaduct), and this is pretty much always 15 mph above the conventional PSR. Short section through Abington has 90 with no EPS, past Crawford there's an EPS of 105 up to 110 (which is again 10-15mph above the 95 Conventional PSR). Descending down Beattock tilting trains have to follow conventional PSR's for quite a bit of their journey down, starting at 90 then working up to 95 and 100. Around halfway down, there's an increase to 125 EPS, which is 25mph faster than the conventional 100mph limit down the whole of Beattock (although, tilting stock does admittedly have to slow down towards the bottom of Beattock for a further 100mph PSR in line with conventional trains). On average, over this section, tilting trains run around 10mph faster than conventional trains, meaning that a tilting train would be roughly 3.5 miles ahead of a conventional train coming out of the section, which with an average speed of (roughly) 100mph, gives us a time saving over this section of around 2 minutes.

Between Beattock goods loops and Lockerbie, EPS trains can run more or less 125mph throughout (there's a short 115mph EPS section immediately after the loops), with conventional trains running at 100 initially then up to 110. This section of track takes roughly 5 minutes to traverse so let's assume that if tilting trains can run (on average) 18mph faster than conventional trains on this section, they'll be approximately 1.5 miles further ahead than a conventional train coming as they pass Lockerbie. At these speeds, that's a time saving of roughly 30-60 seconds.

Between Lockerbie and Carlisle, the speed limits are similar to those between Beattock and Carlisle, with conventional trains being restricted to 100 between Lockerbie and Quintinshill and EPS running initially reduced down to 115 then moved up to 125 just before Ecclefechan. Let's say that gives an average of 20mph faster than conventional stock for a tilting train over this section (which lasts around 10 minutes), that means a tilting train would be roughly 3.33 miles ahead of a non-tilting train, which would give a time saving on this section of track (against a speed of 100mph) of pretty much exactly 2 minutes.

The final approach to Carlisle from Quintinshill sees tilting trains running at 125EPS which goes against a 100mph conventional PSR pretty much the whole way before both trains have to slow for a 55PSR down to a 20PSR into the station. The EPS section takes roughly 5 minutes to traverse before slowing for the 55PSR, so let's say this gives us 5 minutes running 25mph faster than a conventional train. This would mean a tilting train would be roughly 2 miles ahead, which in this case is a time saving of roughly 1 and a half minutes.

So in total, that means (on average), a tilting train will arrive into Carlisle around 6 and a half minutes earlier than a conventional train running non-stop. Is it worth the cost of installing and buying tilting mechanisms just to save 5 minutes on the entire Northern 100mph of this line? I would argue it isn't. If we compare the timetable of a 390 to a 397 travelling over this section of track, both of which stop at Motherwell and Lockerbie (to account for the time taken to slow, stop, and speed up to line speed):


This is a 390, which between Glasgow and Carlisle (stopping at Motherwell and Lockerbie) takes 1 hour and 14 minutes.


This is a 397, which between Glasgow and Carlisle (stopping at Motherwell and Lockerbie) takes 1 hour and 24 minutes.

Now I'm entirely aware that the TASS function gives a much greater advantage over speed on the south WCML (indeed the 390 EPS is 125mph all the way from the North end of the Watford tunnel to Stowe Hill tunnel, well over 50 miles away). However, bearing in mind HS2 trains will not be running over this section and will only join the line at Crewe, the majority of the time saving (with tilt) would be done between Crewe and Preston (the tilting saving between Preston and Carlisle is similar to Carlisle to Glasgow). I would not argue it's feasible or sensible to spend a considerably higher amount on tilting stock for such a short saving, which compromises on space, passenger comfort (390's are very claustrophobic compared to some non-tilting stock), and adds such a huge cost onto a project which will already cut journey times by unprecedented amounts between the North and London.
 

Wapps

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Thank you to all that have responded - very interesting. Some further observations from me:

- On the topic of passenger comfort, the Mark IV carriages don’t feel claustrophobic and they are designed to tilt.

- I think I’d rather the 221s were converted to bi-mode and thus tilt continued than replace them with 80X.

- Finally, if the Euston/Coventry journey takes a few more minutes, that means the journey exceeds an hour. This will get picked up by the media (“new trains are SLOWER” etc) and this doesn’t help support for HS2. Coventry is skipped by HS2 and so, even if it’s just a few minutes, that city is seeing things go backwards (especially when the service to London is reduced to twice hourly, which is believe is the plan for Euston - Coventry - West mids services when HS2 comes in).
 

hwl

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Thank you to all that have responded - very interesting. Some further observations from me:

- On the topic of passenger comfort, the Mark IV carriages don’t feel claustrophobic and they are designed to tilt.

- I think I’d rather the 221s were converted to bi-mode and thus tilt continued than replace them with 80X.

- Finally, if the Euston/Coventry journey takes a few more minutes, that means the journey exceeds an hour. This will get picked up by the media (“new trains are SLOWER” etc) and this doesn’t help support for HS2. Coventry is skipped by HS2 and so, even if it’s just a few minutes, that city is seeing things go backwards (especially when the service to London is reduced to twice hourly, which is believe is the plan for Euston - Coventry - West mids services when HS2 comes in).
The key bit you are missing is that NR are going to upgrade the infrastructure to remove some of the speed differentials (south of Crewe /Weaver Jn), hopefully done before the 805/807 arrival.
Hence the tilt - non tilt differential will be lower on the southern WCML in the future. The same is likely to happen on the northern WCML for HS2.

If the 221s were converted they would lose an engine and you wouldn't have enough power to get beyond 110-115mph on diesel. Catch 22.

At the moment the majority of Avanti 221 use is Euston - Birmingham - Scotland services, this will change and the 807s (7car EMU) will run on the Euston-Liverpool services freeing up 9car Pendolinos to replace 221s on Scottish services.

Post HS2 all the WCML fast services will be getting more stops to:
a) increase frequency at some stations and use the seats vacated by users lost to HS2 (e.g. Manchester to Euston and v/v)
b) increase fast line capacity (by 2tph) with a more even stopping pattern

In the future it very much look like everything will be stopping at MK and many Liverpool/Manchester/Preston services will get another stop further norther e.g. Coventry on some services. Coventry's win is more fast services per hour.

With more stops in the future, acceleration will be more important on the WCML fast services.
 

DB

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- On the topic of passenger comfort, the Mark IV carriages don’t feel claustrophobic and they are designed to tilt.

They were designed for a smaller angle of tilt than the 390s and 221s, so the inward-slope of the upper bodyshell isn't as pronounced.
 

CW2

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<snip>
- Finally, if the Euston/Coventry journey takes a few more minutes, that means the journey exceeds an hour. This will get picked up by the media (“new trains are SLOWER” etc) and this doesn’t help support for HS2. Coventry is skipped by HS2 and so, even if it’s just a few minutes, that city is seeing things go backwards (especially when the service to London is reduced to twice hourly, which is believe is the plan for Euston - Coventry - West mids services when HS2 comes in).
Why the obsession with journey times Euston - Coventry? Coventry currently gets 3 tph to Euston because it happens to be on the way from Birmingham, rather than because of any great demand from Coventry itself. Once the bjob of getting from London to Birmingham as fast as possible has passed to HS2, Coventry can benefit from greater connectivity (which is a euphemism for trains calling at more intermediate stations) so the journey times to London may well be slower.
 

Bald Rick

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The key bit you are missing is that NR are going to upgrade the infrastructure to remove some of the speed differentials (south of Crewe /Weaver Jn), hopefully done before the 805/807 arrival.

Rarely do I need to correct you old chap, but NR will only upgrade the PS if someone a) asks and b) pays.

Unless someone can confirm that a) has happened and that b) is likely then we have to assume that NR won’t be upgrading it, although of course that doesn’t stop Avanti (or anyone else) having a go, within the appropriate procedures of course.
 

supervc-10

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They were designed for a smaller angle of tilt than the 390s and 221s, so the inward-slope of the upper bodyshell isn't as pronounced.
IIRC the Voyagers tilt less than the Pendolinos, which is why they are less tight too.
 

hwl

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Rarely do I need to correct you old chap, but NR will only upgrade the PS if someone a) asks and b) pays.

Unless someone can confirm that a) has happened and that b) is likely then we have to assume that NR won’t be upgrading it, although of course that doesn’t stop Avanti (or anyone else) having a go, within the appropriate procedures of course.
Post 11 of this thread:
As mentioned on other threads, there is a lot of work going on to increase non-EPS speeds south of Weaver. They won't be running at 110mph all the way from Euston to Rugby, there are plans for a mixture of 115/120 and 125mph

I was taking that a near enough confirmation...
 

Bald Rick

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Post 11 of this thread:


I was taking that a near enough confirmation...

Ah. But it’s not NR doing it.

I’ll have a tenner now that when the study is complete, the issues are more complex than originally thought, and NR are asked for help.

Then I’ll double or quits that tenner that I win on: when NR have a look, the stuff the original study missed turns out to be a lot more money, and take a lot longer, than the client thought it would be. And thus the benefits are not delivered as expected, if at all.

And with the £20, I’ll buy you that pint I owe you.
 

4REP

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There is a weight penalty for lugging around all the tilting equipment. Compare a class 220 (non-tilt) vehicle with an identical class 221 (tilt) vehicle and you'll find it works out at about 5 tonnes per vehicle. That means that tilt only makes sense if you are running on a particularly twisty route over a long distance. Otherwise the weight penalties (higher fuel consumption, slower acceleration, higher maintenance costs, more complexity) far outweigh the benefits.
It's just the typical British thing that everything has to be a headache and cheaper but not the case in Europe or countries like Japan.
 

Wapps

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Why the obsession with journey times Euston - Coventry? Coventry currently gets 3 tph to Euston because it happens to be on the way from Birmingham, rather than because of any great demand from Coventry itself. Once the bjob of getting from London to Birmingham as fast as possible has passed to HS2, Coventry can benefit from greater connectivity (which is a euphemism for trains calling at more intermediate stations) so the journey times to London may well be slower.

It is one of our largest cities and has sought to play on its fast connections into Euston to attract business (the area around the station is being redeveloped with this in mind). I would need to see the comparison of what is better for Coventry economically - speed to connect into London or local connectivity - to assess whether Coventry is being hung out to dry on this. Given how much focus has been put on HS2 providing a fast connection to London for Brum, I would assume that a fast connection is very important. (I grew up in Coventry and care about its redevelopment.)

It is one of our largest cities and has sought to play on its fast connections into Euston to attract business (the area around the station is being redeveloped with this in mind). I would need to see the comparison of what is better for Coventry economically - speed to connect into London or local connectivity - to assess whether Coventry is being hung out to dry on this. Given how much focus has been put on HS2 providing a fast connection to London for Brum, I would assume that a fast connection is very important. (I grew up in Coventry and care about its redevelopment.)

P.S. I am in favour of HS2 nonetheless. We can’t hold up progress for the country as a whole because of something like this, but I am just intrigued as to the impact on Coventry and whether local decision makers have even thought about it

It's just the typical British thing that everything has to be a headache and cheaper but not the case in Europe or countries like Japan.

Although I believe in prudence and rational decision making, I also get the same sense sometimes. We have the tilting infrastructure in place (at great expense), so we should just use tilting trains and absorb the incremental cost (which can’t be that much per a ticket, surely). I feel sometimes - and I am no expert - that we just need to be brave. We seem to have done it on HS2, despite the naysayers.


This being the case, why do Pendos need to be as inwardly curved as they are? Couldn’t a new generation of titling stock for the WCML he developed in Mark IV / 221 style.

The key bit you are missing is that NR are going to upgrade the infrastructure to remove some of the speed differentials (south of Crewe /Weaver Jn), hopefully done before the 805/807 arrival.
Hence the tilt - non tilt differential will be lower on the southern WCML in the future. The same is likely to happen on the northern WCML for HS2.

If the 221s were converted they would lose an engine and you wouldn't have enough power to get beyond 110-115mph on diesel. Catch 22.

At the moment the majority of Avanti 221 use is Euston - Birmingham - Scotland services, this will change and the 807s (7car EMU) will run on the Euston-Liverpool services freeing up 9car Pendolinos to replace 221s on Scottish services.

Post HS2 all the WCML fast services will be getting more stops to:
a) increase frequency at some stations and use the seats vacated by users lost to HS2 (e.g. Manchester to Euston and v/v)
b) increase fast line capacity (by 2tph) with a more even stopping pattern

In the future it very much look like everything will be stopping at MK and many Liverpool/Manchester/Preston services will get another stop further norther e.g. Coventry on some services. Coventry's win is more fast services per hour.

With more stops in the future, acceleration will be more important on the WCML fast services.

Thank you, very informative. Do you know if the 221s use 125mph on the non electrified bits?
 
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Railperf

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It is one of our largest cities and has sought to play on its fast connections into Euston to attract business (the area around the station is being redeveloped with this in mind). I would need to see the comparison of what is better for Coventry economically - speed to connect into London or local connectivity - to assess whether Coventry is being hung out to dry on this. Given how much focus has been put on HS2 providing a fast connection to London for Brum, I would assume that a fast connection is very important. (I grew up in Coventry and care about its redevelopment.)



P.S. I am in favour of HS2 nonetheless. We can’t hold up progress for the country as a whole because of something like this, but I am just intrigued as to the impact on Coventry and whether local decision makers have even thought about it



Although I believe in prudence and rational decision making, I also get the same sense sometimes. We have the tilting infrastructure in place (at great expense), so we should just use tilting trains and absorb the incremental cost (which can’t be that much per a ticket, surely). I feel sometimes - and I am no expert - that we just need to be brave. We seem to have done it on HS2, despite the naysayers.



This being the case, why do Pendos need to be as inwardly curved as they are? Couldn’t a new generation of titling stock for the WCML he developed in Mark IV / 221 style.



Thank you, very informative. Do you know if the 221s use 125mph on the non electrified bits?
There are no 125mph unelectrified sections on the WCML or North Wales line. I think it is 90mph max on the North Wales Line from Crewe to Chester Bangor and Holyhead from memory with lots of lower limits along the way.
 

Wapps

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There are no 125mph unelectrified sections on the WCML or North Wales line. I think it is 90mph max on the North Wales Line from Crewe to Chester Bangor and Holyhead from memory with lots of lower limits along the way.
I see. In which case, I presume we wouldn’t lose anything by converting the 221s to bi-mode.
 

supervc-10

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This being the case, why do Pendos need to be as inwardly curved as they are? Couldn’t a new generation of titling stock for the WCML he developed in Mark IV / 221 style.

The Pendos tilt more than the 221s, hence the narrower profile. This is so they can run at the design speed of 140mph. I would imagine that the Mk4s also had less tilt than the Pendos, despite also being designed for 140mph- I would assume they would have a lower speed through curves than a Pendo could theoretically manage whilst tilting.
 

JamesT

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I see. In which case, I presume we wouldn’t lose anything by converting the 221s to bi-mode.

How many carriages do you need to drive to get up to 125? My understanding is there’s no electrical link between coaches so you’re only going to drive the coaches you convert. If dropping Diesel engines prevents getting up to top speed, does that mean you’re going to need to convert most coaches to electric? Are they all going to need pantographs and will that cause issues if they’re too close?

Trying to convert the Voyagers to bi-mode feels like a solution looking for a problem. There’s plenty of non electrified line for XC to keep running them until we get to the 2040 deadline when they can go in the bin.
 

Bald Rick

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This being the case, why do Pendos need to be as inwardly curved as they are? Couldn’t a new generation of titling stock for the WCML he developed in Mark IV / 221 style.

AIUI there isn’t that much difference between the exterior profile of a Pendolino and a Mark IV. I may be wrong.
 

CW2

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It is one of our largest cities and has sought to play on its fast connections into Euston to attract business (the area around the station is being redeveloped with this in mind). I would need to see the comparison of what is better for Coventry economically - speed to connect into London or local connectivity - to assess whether Coventry is being hung out to dry on this. Given how much focus has been put on HS2 providing a fast connection to London for Brum, I would assume that a fast connection is very important. (I grew up in Coventry and care about its redevelopment.)

P.S. I am in favour of HS2 nonetheless. We can’t hold up progress for the country as a whole because of something like this, but I am just intrigued as to the impact on Coventry and whether local decision makers have even thought about it

In terms of city size, Coventry is about on a par with Bradford. Nobody suggests we need three tph linking London with Bradford. Another good comparison is Wakefield, which benefits from a good service because it is a major halt covering a wider area with services linking London and Leeds. For Wakefield read Coventry, for Leeds read Birmingham.

Yes, Coventry may see a downgrading of services if your only measure is how quickly and how frequently you can travel to London from Coventry station.

I would have thought a significant proportion of the Coventry population would fall within the catchment area for the new Birmingham Interchange HS2 station in any case.
 

mmh

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In terms of city size, Coventry is about on a par with Bradford. Nobody suggests we need three tph linking London with Bradford. Another good comparison is Wakefield, which benefits from a good service because it is a major halt covering a wider area with services linking London and Leeds. For Wakefield read Coventry, for Leeds read Birmingham.

Yes, Coventry may see a downgrading of services if your only measure is how quickly and how frequently you can travel to London from Coventry station.

I would have thought a significant proportion of the Coventry population would fall within the catchment area for the new Birmingham Interchange HS2 station in any case.

The same sort of sentiment about Coventry's London services has been made in other threads in the past. They usually ignore that the 3 trains an hour don't merely stop there to take people to London, they are about half of the service in terms of number of trains between Coventry and Birmingham and well over half the service in terms of passenger capacity. They don't stop there by an accident of fate but because the London trains have always served this purpose and because they're in the franchise specification.
 

The Planner

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Ah. But it’s not NR doing it.

I’ll have a tenner now that when the study is complete, the issues are more complex than originally thought, and NR are asked for help.

Then I’ll double or quits that tenner that I win on: when NR have a look, the stuff the original study missed turns out to be a lot more money, and take a lot longer, than the client thought it would be. And thus the benefits are not delivered as expected, if at all.

And with the £20, I’ll buy you that pint I owe you.
You cynic.... you are of course correct though as it isn't NR doing it, its Avanti led.
 

hwl

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How many carriages do you need to drive to get up to 125? My understanding is there’s no electrical link between coaches so you’re only going to drive the coaches you convert. If dropping Diesel engines prevents getting up to top speed, does that mean you’re going to need to convert most coaches to electric? Are they all going to need pantographs and will that cause issues if they’re too close?

Trying to convert the Voyagers to bi-mode feels like a solution looking for a problem. There’s plenty of non electrified line for XC to keep running them until we get to the 2040 deadline when they can go in the bin.
Only 1 vehicle would lose and engine to fit the transformer and "rectifier" to create the DC and the bodyshell modified have pantograph well...
The units would need a complete electrical rewire of all vehicles so they could be powered from OHLE to add a DC power bus and a new TCMS which would cost a lot as Project Thor discovered.
 

Wapps

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In terms of city size, Coventry is about on a par with Bradford. Nobody suggests we need three tph linking London with Bradford. Another good comparison is Wakefield, which benefits from a good service because it is a major halt covering a wider area with services linking London and Leeds. For Wakefield read Coventry, for Leeds read Birmingham.

Yes, Coventry may see a downgrading of services if your only measure is how quickly and how frequently you can travel to London from Coventry station.

I would have thought a significant proportion of the Coventry population would fall within the catchment area for the new Birmingham Interchange HS2 station in any case.

Coventry, in the south Midlands (if you define north and south Midlands as being the areas north and south of Brum), is sensibly trying to regenerate itself, in part, by attracting business and commuters from London, and part of the equation is proximity - it’s only 90 miles from London (which is very different for Bradfield and Wakefield) - and fast connections to London by road and rail (“less than an hour by train” - which can’t be achieved for Bradford and Wakefield). It blows a hole in that if it’s losing fast regular rail connections to London. It seems that is part of the price being paid for getting Birmingham better connected to London by HS2. I would presume this means Coventry will lose out to Birmingham in the competition for jobs and wealth being brought up from the south, and will struggle to level up. Hopefully that can be made up a bit by the better local services that have been talked about.

Re Birmingham catchment area: the HS2 website puts Coventry within the East Midlands Hub catchment area (as if people would travel all the way up to there to then go back down again - same applies re going to Brum New St and then commuting to Curzon St and then going back down south again - it will be longer than the new slower non-tilt services, so who would bother) and doesn’t even give the option of selecting Coventry on the “discover how HS2 will transform your journey” calculator. It is disappointing that local politicians didn’t fight for a ‘Coventry & Warwickshire Parkway’ or a ‘South Midlands Hub’ on HS2. That said, I am not surprised local politicians haven’t fought for Coventry, as it suffers terrible local politics and leaders (a bit political to say that, I know - but very true).

As I said before, I’m all for HS2, but as I learn more from this forum, I wish there were still time to fight for a better deal for Coventry. I don’t even live there, but have a soft spot!


Coventry, in the south Midlands (if you define north and south Midlands as being the areas north and south of Brum), is sensibly trying to regenerate itself, in part, by attracting business and commuters from London, and part of the equation is proximity - it’s only 90 miles from London (which is very different for Bradfield and Wakefield) - and fast connections to London by road and rail (“less than an hour by train” - which can’t be achieved for Bradford and Wakefield). It blows a hole in that if it’s losing fast regular rail connections to London. It seems that is part of the price being paid for getting Birmingham better connected to London by HS2. I would presume this means Coventry will lose out to Birmingham in the competition for jobs and wealth being brought up from the south, and will struggle to level up. Hopefully that can be made up a bit by the better local services that have been talked about.

Re Birmingham catchment area: the HS2 website puts Coventry within the East Midlands Hub catchment area (as if people would travel all the way up to there to then go back down again - same applies re going to Brum New St and then commuting to Curzon St and then going back down south again - it will be longer than the new slower non-tilt services, so who would bother) and doesn’t even give the option of selecting Coventry on the “discover how HS2 will transform your journey” calculator. It is disappointing that local politicians didn’t fight for a ‘Coventry & Warwickshire Parkway’ or a ‘South Midlands Hub’ on HS2. That said, I am not surprised local politicians haven’t fought for Coventry, as it suffers terrible local politics and leaders (a bit political to say that, I know - but very true).

As I said before, I’m all for HS2, but as I learn more from this forum, I wish there were still time to fight for a better deal for Coventry. I don’t even live there, but have a soft spot!

post-edit: there is of course the Interchange station, which I think is more Coventry catchment than Birmingham and will mitigate Coventry’s losses, even if services are not direct
 
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E27007

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Tiliting trains are basically a workaround, by having the train tilit you are masking the fact that the curves have a big cant deficiency for the speed of the train, running trains through curves with big cant deficiency costs the P-Way department money, head and side wear of the rail is excessive etc.
 

Bald Rick

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with big cant deficiency costs the P-Way department money, head and side wear of the rail is excessive etc.

Not that much money though. Certainly a lot cheaper than building straighter tracks.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You cynic.... you are of course correct though as it isn't NR doing it, its Avanti led.

I think I get it now. ;)
Avanti (and First north of Preston) want 125mph non-tilt, but NR hasn't endorsed it yet.
"Complete by the end of the year" sounds like that's when NR will get a TOC feasibility report, well short of an "oven ready" set of line speed increases.
Then the haggling will start (with the TOCs at their wits end about the future of their franchises, and at the whim of DfT).
There's probably 2 years to sort something out before the 221s go.
It sounds like Virgin's repeated failed attempts to get higher EPS speeds on the WCML.

I was interested to see that Rugby-Coventry is now 125 MU as well as 125 EPS (Wolverhampton-Stafford has been like that for over a decade).
I can't think of any current Rugby-Coventry service that could take advantage of 125 MU.
All of Avanti's trains use EPS, XC's non-tilt 22x don't use that section, and WMT's are limited to 110 anyway (even with their new Aventras).
 

The Planner

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I think I get it now. ;)
Avanti (and First north of Preston) want 125mph non-tilt, but NR hasn't endorsed it yet.
"Complete by the end of the year" sounds like that's when NR will get a TOC feasibility report, well short of an "oven ready" set of line speed increases.
Then the haggling will start (with the TOCs at their wits end about the future of their franchises, and at the whim of DfT).
There's probably 2 years to sort something out before the 221s go.
It sounds like Virgin's repeated failed attempts to get higher EPS speeds on the WCML.

I was interested to see that Rugby-Coventry is now 125 MU as well as 125 EPS (Wolverhampton-Stafford has been like that for over a decade).
I can't think of any current Rugby-Coventry service that could take advantage of 125 MU.
All of Avanti's trains use EPS, XC's non-tilt 22x don't use that section, and WMT's are limited to 110 anyway (even with their new Aventras).
Don't get mixed up between the two, all the Avanti work is south of Weaver.
Not sure the Rugby Cov speed is new either, looking at an old sectional appendix copy, it has been there since at least 2016.
 

Bald Rick

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I think I get it now. ;)
Avanti (and First north of Preston) want 125mph non-tilt, but NR hasn't endorsed it yet.
"Complete by the end of the year" sounds like that's when NR will get a TOC feasibility report, well short of an "oven ready" set of line speed increases.
Then the haggling will start (with the TOCs at their wits end about the future of their franchises, and at the whim of DfT).
There's probably 2 years to sort something out before the 221s go.
It sounds like Virgin's repeated failed attempts to get higher EPS speeds on the WCML.

I was interested to see that Rugby-Coventry is now 125 MU as well as 125 EPS (Wolverhampton-Stafford has been like that for over a decade).
I can't think of any current Rugby-Coventry service that could take advantage of 125 MU.
All of Avanti's trains use EPS, XC's non-tilt 22x don't use that section, and WMT's are limited to 110 anyway (even with their new Aventras).

Nearly but not quite.

Anyone can make any proposal for amending the national Network, as long as a) it fits in with wider strategy and b) they pay for it. This can be done in one of two ways:

1) give NR the remit, and pay for them to do the work
2) do the work yourself, and just pay NR to check their homework (in very simple terms!)


South of Weaver, Avanti has chosen option 2, so far. One suspects they are just hoping that someone with a clever spreadsheet is going to tell them that all that needs to be done is to change some signs (I hope they remember the sectional appendix, and all the SPAD risk assessments, and the Hazard directory, and all the patrolling diagrams, and all the access point signage, and all the signalling diagrams, etc etc ad nauseam).

What I suspect will happen is that the person with the clever spreadsheet puts in a whole load of assumptions and caveats, which turn out to be ‘courageous’. Then when NR is asked to check the homework, these are laid bare, and when NR asks ‘so what is your proposal to sort these?’ a slightly embarrassed shrug of the shoulders is the result.

Just two examples:

1) If the answer is to move to 150mm cant deficiency, this will place extra wear on the rail and track system. Whilst it is a relatively small additional cost to the infrastructure, it still needs calculating and paying for.

2) Linslade Tunnel is 125mph EPS, but only 90mph PS. Part of this is curvature (it’s the one part of the WCML that still scares me) but part of it is air pressure for passengers on trains. Pendolinos, Voyagers, (and one assumes) the Hitachi trains are pressure sealed for this responsibility. Most other passenger trains are not. So what should the linespeed be there?

There’s hundreds of similar things to look at. It’s all bloody complicated, trust me!
 
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