London Buses Discussion

[londonbridge]

I popped out today and saw a bus with a "BUS FULL" sign in the driver's window (in the Lewisham area, can't remember which route). Is this something which TfL have introduced or depots taking their own initiative?

I’ve seen an X26 with a “Bus full” sign, at the Fountain roundabout stop at New Malden towards Croydon, luckily no-one else at the stop wanted it and someone got off, so the driver let me on, no-one got off at Worcester Park and there were several people waiting who didn’t look too happy when the driver wouldn’t open the doors. On the other hand I got on a 157, no sign in the window but it looked like more than 30 people on board when I was deciding where to sit, I know drivers are allowed to use discretion to admit additional passengers but how many over and above 30 are meant to be allowed?

And today I've seen a bus with a 'non-school service' sign in the window, although the kids aren't yet back at school and the schme doesn't start till tomorrow. For the uninitiated, from tomorrow, 1st September, until 31st October, on certain routes, between 7.30am and 9.30am, and again between 14:30 and 16:30 on weekdays, every other bus will be designated as a school service which can operate at maximum capacity under government guidelines. TFL are asking the kids to travel on these school buses, freeing up the other buses for adult passengers, which will still run at reduced capacity.

 

[matt_world2004]

The bus full signs are TfL in origin . X26 getting service uplift tommorrow (don't know by how much)

 

[MotCO]

Whilst this is a possibility, the only thing I'd say is that the contract award was a long time before Covid struck, and, probably until the last month or so, the possibility of a permanent significant reduction in numbers commuting was far from certain.

Having reflected on this, I know that the contract for the 507 and 521 is currently out to tender, due to be announced in November. If the contract calls for new electric buses, then the existing electric ADL200s on the 507 and 521 could migrate to the 358 (and other routes, e.g. 227).

 

[cnjb8]

Having reflected on this, I know that the contract for the 507 and 521 is currently out to tender, due to be announced in November. If the contract calls for new electric buses, then the existing electric ADL200s on the 507 and 521 could migrate to the 358 (and other routes, e.g. 227).

Aren't the 507 and 521 the Waterloo based buses?

 

[MotCO]

Aren't the 507 and 521 the Waterloo based buses?

Indeed, but they could move to another garage once infrastructure was installed. The 358 contract was for electric buses, but no order has yet been placed, despite the award being at the end of last year and starting in September.

 

[chopperman21]

With the increase in buses for Social distancing specifically around school times, Stagecoach are currently using a number of non-london buses on TfL services. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124193440@N06/50315014011/in/dateposted-public/

 

[MotCO]

With the increase in buses for Social distancing specifically around school times, Stagecoach are currently using a number of non-london buses on TfL services. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124193440@N06/50315014011/in/dateposted-public/

I spotted a E200 MMC on route B14 on 9 September in full national Stagecoach livery, operated out of Bromley Garage. I also saw some other white Stagecoach buses parked at the garage, so presumably these are a handful of School Specials.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wonder if buses being borrowed from the provinces, has lead to any service shortages outside London.

 

[cnjb8]

I wonder if buses being borrowed from the provinces, has lead to any service shortages outside London.

Err no. The buses wouldn't have been loaned to London if it was going to cause a shortage

 

[CBlue]

In the case of all the buses borrowed from Stagecoach East, most of them weren't required as some services aren't back to full frequency yet.

 

[chopperman21]

CT Plus (Or HCT depending on how they wish to be known) have also brought non-london buses into London for school extra's. YY17GRZ even featuring a TfL wayfarer ticket machine.

 

[bromleyboy21]

I spotted a E200 MMC on route B14 on 9 September in full national Stagecoach livery, operated out of Bromley Garage. I also saw some other white Stagecoach buses parked at the garage, so presumably these are a handful of School Specials.

Not sure if it's the same bus but around 9.15 each morning I see at Stagecoach single decker returning to Bromley Garage probably from the Chislehurst direction with a school service sign in the front window which has branding on the side saying "789 Aberdare"

 

[urpert]

LOTS now reporting that the 358 is to keep its Citaros.

 

[MotCO]

LOTS now reporting that the 358 is to keep its Citaros.

To keep the mods happy, LOTS = London Omnibus Traction Society.

However, their comment "The contract for the 358 also stays at Go-Ahead, keeping its Citaros" could be read as 'for now' since the new contract starts tomorrow and no new buses have arrived, or 'for ever'. The Citaros are propped up by some 08 reg Omnicities (since three Citaros were destroyed in a fire), which cannot last the whole contract, so there must be some new buses at some stage, whether new Streetlites (hope not!) E200s, or new Citaros, but in that case they would probably not be electric.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Having reflected on this, I know that the contract for the 507 and 521 is currently out to tender, due to be announced in November. If the contract calls for new electric buses, then the existing electric ADL200s on the 507 and 521 could migrate to the 358 (and other routes, e.g. 227).

Aren't the 507 and 521 the Waterloo based buses?

Presumably the new tender is still Mon-Fri only ?

 

[Deerfold]

Presumably the new tender is still Mon-Fri only ?

The 507 runs daily.

 

[Busaholic]

Presumably the new tender is still Mon-Fri only ?

Given the huge amounts of money to convert Waterloo Garage to take the electric buses for the 507 and 521 with the infrastructure, and the legal constraints to operating much beyond what they do now, including operating hours, it's inconceivable to me that Go Ahead will lose operation of these two routes. Just to mention that the 507 operates seven days a week, although its weekend operation (at much reduced levels) is not from Waterloo.

 

[busesrusuk]

Given the huge amounts of money to convert Waterloo Garage to take the electric buses for the 507 and 521 with the infrastructure, and the legal constraints to operating much beyond what they do now, including operating hours, it's inconceivable to me that Go Ahead will lose operation of these two routes. Just to mention that the 507 operates seven days a week, although its weekend operation (at much reduced levels) is not from Waterloo.

In actual fact part of the operation is operated by Camberwell all week with Camberwell running the full allocation on the 507 at the weekend. Intrigued by your comment "legal constraints" - what legal constraints?

 

[Andy Pacer]

Given the huge amounts of money to convert Waterloo Garage to take the electric buses for the 507 and 521 with the infrastructure, and the legal constraints to operating much beyond what they do now, including operating hours, it's inconceivable to me that Go Ahead will lose operation of these two routes. Just to mention that the 507 operates seven days a week, although its weekend operation (at much reduced levels) is not from Waterloo.

In actual fact part of the operation is operated by Camberwell all week with Camberwell running the full allocation on the 507 at the weekend. Intrigued by your comment "legal constraints" - what legal constraints?

Thanks for the clarification there, I'm a little out of touch and hadn't realised one of the routes operated at the weekend, I was just aware that the Waterloo site was weekdays only.

 

[700007]

LOTS now reporting that the 358 is to keep its Citaros.

From what I have heard on the grape vine (sorry, can't verify at the moment but hopefully I or someone else can shortly) is that they tested a BYD E200 on it and the buses were struggling to get through a day's work due to the high mileage, demanding nature and long duties typically found on the route. Other electric models would have had the same issue, and so to conclude it may be a case of waiting a few years to allow electric technology to develop before converting 358 to such operation. Something amongst those lines anyways.

 

[upasalmon]

700007 RED ARROW. Would it not be an idea to upon any change renumber these routes 500 and 501? These were the original numbers and there shouldn't be any confusion except at the beginning. Another suggestion is to renumber 210 and 248 to the vacant numbers 10 and 48
so all of 1-99 at least can be filled.

700007 RED ARROW. Would it not be an idea to upon any change renumber these routes 500 and 501? These were the original numbers and there shouldn't be any confusion except at the beginning. Another suggestion is to renumber 210 and 248 to the vacant numbers 10 and 48
so all of 1-99 at least can be filled.

APOLOGIES One gap I forgot I'd 82/N82 which could be occupied by 182/N18.

 

[Deerfold]

700007 RED ARROW. Would it not be an idea to upon any change renumber these routes 500 and 501? These were the original numbers and there shouldn't be any confusion except at the beginning. Another suggestion is to renumber 210 and 248 to the vacant numbers 10 and 48
so all of 1-99 at least can be filled.


APOLOGIES One gap I forgot I'd 82/N82 which could be occupied by 182/N18.

I'm not sure what the benefits of renumbering would be. There's been quite a few changes to the London network in the last few years, but bus maps are no longer produced by TfL. As an occasional visitor to London I'm now confused by the changes and the difficulty of finding out what they are (and there's quite a few out of date spider maps around). I used to have a very good knowledge of the network (and 5 years ago worked for TfL).

Changing route numbers when nothing else has changed is just likely to confuse people more.

It used to be policy to generally not reuse numbers for 5 years after they were retired to reduce the chance of confusion.

 

[RT4038]

In actual fact part of the operation is operated by Camberwell all week with Camberwell running the full allocation on the 507 at the weekend. Intrigued by your comment "legal constraints" - what legal constraints?

I believe it is the strict rules of the planning consent on the use of the Depot site, granted under the Planning legislation. Hence it is a legal requirement.

 

[urpert]

Visual inspection of the 358 today confirms it’s still a mixture of Citaros, Scanias and the odd WS off the 227.

 

[Busaholic]

In actual fact part of the operation is operated by Camberwell all week with Camberwell running the full allocation on the 507 at the weekend. Intrigued by your comment "legal constraints" - what legal constraints?

I'm recovering from a hospital operation and utterly unable to access my huge mass of (paper) information but, basically, it's all in the planning process that allowed a longstanding bus parking area/terminus to be part converted into a bus garage. Lambeth Council were (rightly) rooting for their local residents and, in particular, the occupants of the flats immediately overlooking the site. Statutory undertakings were made relating to noise and light pollution along with many, many restrictions on such matters as hours of operation: it probably helped the residents that a tenant whose family had grown up in one of those flats held a middle management role in L.T. Buses Operating Dept and wasn't going to let anything be overlooked. Indeed, he was my immediate superior during my last position before I quit L.T.

 

[MotCO]

From what I have heard on the grape vine (sorry, can't verify at the moment but hopefully I or someone else can shortly) is that they tested a BYD E200 on it and the buses were struggling to get through a day's work due to the high mileage, demanding nature and long duties typically found on the route. Other electric models would have had the same issue, and so to conclude it may be a case of waiting a few years to allow electric technology to develop before converting 358 to such operation. Something amongst those lines anyways.

That does make sense. The 358 does have a long operating day (almost 24 hrs), so maybe the required bus hasn't been invented yet! If they have tried E200s, was an electric Optare vehicle also tried?

 

[Busaholic]

That does make sense. The 358 does have a long operating day (almost 24 hrs), so maybe the required bus hasn't been invented yet! If they have tried E200s, was an electric Optare vehicle also tried?

While TfL continue with the expectation that these vehicles go back to their home garage for charging rather than part-charge during the day at termini, then these problems will continue. Most European cities have adopted the technology which enables their buses to see all-day service, but then they haven't all been seduced by BYD.

 

[MotCO]

While TfL continue with the expectation that these vehicles go back to their home garage for charging rather than part-charge during the day at termini, then these problems will continue. Most European cities have adopted the technology which enables their buses to see all-day service, but then they haven't all been seduced by BYD.

In fairness, the 358 passes its depot. If they wanted to, they could change 'expired' buses with 'recharged' buses there, but it would mean increasing the fleet by two or more buses to provide the float. On the other hand, do electric buses need as much maintenance as diesel or hybrid buses? If not, can these buses provide the float, given that the PVR for the route does fluctuate during the day, with probably only 7 buses at night. How long does a bus take to fully recharge?

 

[Deerfold]

In fairness, the 358 passes its depot. If they wanted to, they could change 'expired' buses with 'recharged' buses there, but it would mean increasing the fleet by two or more buses to provide the float. On the other hand, do electric buses need as much maintenance as diesel or hybrid buses? If not, can these buses provide the float, given that the PVR for the route does fluctuate during the day, with probably only 7 buses at night. How long does a bus take to fully recharge?

Would that need everyone to change bus? I can see people getting fed up of that happening regularly.

 

[Hophead]

Would that need everyone to change bus? I can see people getting fed up of that happening regularly.

It's not far to Orpington Station, where vehicles could be swapped, but it seems surprising, to say the least, that TfL were seemingly unaware of the daily range of electric vehicles when they issued and accepted the tender. The 358 doesn't even seem the most obvious of candidates for a battery bus, as half the route is on fairly open roads.