3tph on North Downs Line

[Bread & cheese]

GWR published a press release about the extra North Downs trains on Monday, this includes the statement:
Discussions continue with Network Rail and other stakeholders about when GWR can introduce more trains on the route to realise the full timetable aspiration and extend the additional services being introduced this Monday to Gatwick Airport.
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...-for-three-trains-an-hour-on-north-downs-line

 

[Kieran1990]

In effect it will just be the Guildford - Farnham shuttles with an extra two stops

Quick RTT check and yes, Alton’s are taking just the Farnham’s extended.
Interesting that Platform 5 will handle 3 trains in 9 mins each hour but 6 additional SWR services an hour being handled this weekend X2 Alton, X1 Weymouth X Waterloo extra’s
Xx40 Pompey-Wat
xx43 Reading
xx49 Pompey-Wat
Could be interesting if any delays incur especially as 6 will be occupied 47-52 by the Alton-Waterloo.

 

[Deepgreen]

GWR published a press release about the extra North Downs trains on Monday, this includes the statement:
Discussions continue with Network Rail and other stakeholders about when GWR can introduce more trains on the route to realise the full timetable aspiration and extend the additional services being introduced this Monday to Gatwick Airport.
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...-for-three-trains-an-hour-on-north-downs-line

Thanks for that - where was the press release promulgated? There's not a word on their web site that I have found. Interesting that they call it an "aspiration" when it's a firm franchise requirement which is very late already (should have been introduced several timetable iterations before C19 hit)! BTW, I notice that RTT has this working (the only one of the day) - an "unadvertised express" operated by GWR. Does anyone know the basis of this? EDIT - seen the GWR press section - what good is this, I wonder, for normal passengers, who have been told nothing of the increase? I live on the line of route and nothing has been in the press here. I note that in the press statement they call the extra trains' paths "key parts of the day" - what exactly is "key" about these off-peak runs?! The driver is also said to be "ahead"of the 0936 train - surely 'at the head of'? The whole thing reads as if GWR have wanted to bring the extra trains in themselves, when the truth is they're obliged to so by the franchise agreement which they took on without realising/caring about the implications (as ever with TOCs these days).

Realtime Trains - 1V57 1700 Gatwick Airport to Reading

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

BTW, I notice that RTT has this working (the only one of the day) - an "unadvertised express" operated by GWR. Does anyone know the basis of this?

The 1700 from Gatwick doesn't run at the moment but the path is there such that it could be introduced in the future. The other such trains have been set to cancelled but they seem to have missed that one.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-17/0200-0159?stp=C&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[Deepgreen]

The 1700 from Gatwick doesn't run at the moment but the path is there such that it could be introduced in the future. The other such trains have been set to cancelled but they seem to have missed that one.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-17/0200-0159?stp=C&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

I wondered if it was something like that - thanks.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The whole thing reads as if GWR have wanted to bring the extra trains in themselves, when the truth is they're obliged to so by the franchise agreement which they took on without realising/caring about the implications (as ever with TOCs these days).

Realtime Trains - 1V57 1700 Gatwick Airport to Reading

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It is GWR who have been the driving force behind this. Whilst the DfT ultimately specifies it in their franchise agreement, in practice much of the business case development work etc is done by the TOC themselves and suggestions are made to DfT for what should go in the next award tender. Covid notwithstanding there was a strong revenue growth prediction associated with the second fast Gatwick path each hour, which of course GWR are interested in generating.

Remember that although the DfT have specified 2tph to Gatwick for years (but it hasn’t happened due to lack of paths), prior to what ended up being Dec 19 timetable this was just supposed to be the Redhill stopper extended through to Gatwick. The 3tph concept is a completely different and hopefully much improved way of linking Reading, Guildford and other places en-route to Britain’s second airport with competitive journey times. The long-running operational barriers (crossings, timetable paths and provision of suitable stock) have gradually been solved by a lot of hard effort and negotiation by the operator and of course colleagues at Network Rail. If they weren’t interested then I suspect it still wouldn’t have happened, despite what is specified as it would be all too easy just to say ‘ah well Network Rail says X Y and Z so we can’t do it.’ Convincing NR to accept any additional paths on the BML at all is an achievement in itself.

 

[TEW]

With the downturn in demand at Gatwick at the moment I wonder whether the 3tph timetable will have as many benefits as possible. The local stations between Guildford and Reading in particular could probably do with more than 1tph.

 

[Deepgreen]

It is GWR who have been the driving force behind this. Whilst the DfT ultimately specifies it in their franchise agreement, in practice much of the business case development work etc is done by the TOC themselves and suggestions are made to DfT for what should go in the next award tender. Covid notwithstanding there was a strong revenue growth prediction associated with the second fast Gatwick path each hour, which of course GWR are interested in generating.

Remember that although the DfT have specified 2tph to Gatwick for years (but it hasn’t happened due to lack of paths), prior to what ended up being Dec 19 timetable this was just supposed to be the Redhill stopper extended through to Gatwick. The 3tph concept is a completely different and hopefully much improved way of linking Reading, Guildford and other places en-route to Britain’s second airport with competitive journey times. The long-running operational barriers (crossings, timetable paths and provision of suitable stock) have gradually been solved by a lot of hard effort and negotiation by the operator and of course colleagues at Network Rail. If they weren’t interested then I suspect it still wouldn’t have happened, despite what is specified as it would be all too easy just to say ‘ah well Network Rail says X Y and Z so we can’t do it.’ Convincing NR to accept any additional paths on the BML at all is an achievement in itself.

If the 2tph to Gatwick stalled for lack of paths, where have they now come from, as there are surely more trains than ever on that route (again, C19 aside)? I would venture to suggest that suitable stock is still unresolved, as the 769s were promised as "coming soon" (and still have no firm date for introduction) in numerous replies to me from GWR dating from a few years ago onwards. Indeed, we've lost some 166s, which have been replaced by slightly inferior 165s. I have to say that, as my local TOC for the last eight years, GWR have been poor performers on many fronts over that time, and they were pulled up by the ASA for their publicity campaign a few years back when they implied that they were the driving force behind the GWML electrification, etc. However, let's hope that the 3tph can be made to work at last, although some of the detailed issues discussed on this thread give me cause to wonder.

With the downturn in demand at Gatwick at the moment I wonder whether the 3tph timetable will have as many benefits as possible. The local stations between Guildford and Reading in particular could probably do with more than 1tph.

Yes - I was suprised to see North Camp excluded from the new fasts.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If the 2tph to Gatwick stalled for lack of paths, where have they now come from, as there are surely more trains than ever on that route (again, C19 aside)? I would venture to suggest that suitable stock is still unresolved, as the 769s were promised as "coming soon" (and still have no firm date for introduction) in numerous replies to me from GWR dating from a few years ago onwards.

The lack of paths under the old timetable was for three reasons;
-Firstly, because the Redhill stopper’s position in the standard hour under the old pattern (xx04 ex Reading) did not lend itself to any sort of slot to Gatwick, and the semi fast wasn’t far behind so the Gatwick legs would have been bunched anyway
-Secondly because the Thameslink / GTR / Southern recast had not happened yet. Although there are more trains there were specific provisions made to accommodate 2tph GWR services at half-hourly intervals
-Thirdly because Redhill P0 had not been built, thereby accommodating more reversal moves for the new timetable pattern.

The reasons for the delayed 769 deliveries are widely and well-known. GWR have one unit (an actual 769!) delivered and training is commencing. Remaining deliveries up to the full fleet depend on progress of the overall conversion programme as other TOCs are also in the queue. Covid has delayed the training further due to restrictions on two-person cab occupancy.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the 2tph to Gatwick stalled for lack of paths, where have they now come from?

They haven’t, which is why the trains are only going as far as Redhill.

However, when the Gatwick work is completed next year, there is space, in theory.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

They haven’t, which is why the trains are only going as far as Redhill.

However, when the Gatwick work is completed next year, there is space, in theory.

The reason why the third train is terminating at Redhill for the initial trial period is because NR are concerned about the performance impact on the BML if the plan doesn’t perform as expected. The second path to Gatwick exists, and could be used from tomorrow even with the Gatwick works ongoing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The reason why the third train is terminating at Redhill for the initial trial period is because NR are concerned about the performance impact on the BML if the plan doesn’t perform as expected. The second path to Gatwick exists, and could be used from tomorrow even with the Gatwick works ongoing.

It might exist on paper, but trains run on rails.

Fortunately I know who is making the decision

 

[Bikeman78]

The reason why the third train is terminating at Redhill for the initial trial period is because NR are concerned about the performance impact on the BML if the plan doesn’t perform as expected. The second path to Gatwick exists, and could be used from tomorrow even with the Gatwick works ongoing.

I'd have thought it would be easier now than a few years ago. There are four BML trains from Redhill to Gatwick each hour, the same as 30 years ago. The difference is that we don't have the Gatwick Express crossing all lines every 15 minutes any more.

 

[infobleep]

It might exist on paper, but trains run on rails.

Fortunately I know who is making the decision

What happens if it deosnt work on rails? Do they just run the fast trains to Redhill or will there be no demand if they only run to Redhill?

Finally, as long as I don't mind taking an unofficial 7 minute connection at Gatwick Airport, I will be able to get from Haywards Heath to Guildford moneys to Saturday in 1 hour and 1 minute.

That's great progress compared to the timetable changes from May this year when it was faster to travel via Clapham Junction.

In the opposite direction it is about 1 hour 9 minutes. How lovely

It's been a long time coming. Gone are the days when you had to depart Haywards Heath about 40 minutes before the train departed Gatwick Airport due to poor connections. Where you could depart from Brighton later than Haywards Heath to catch the train.

Long may these connections remain.

 

[Deepgreen]

On the topic of the NDL, does anyone know what this working is? It's run a few times now (using 66787 - see picture) and my guess it is for driver route knowledge, but I just wanted confirmation.

Realtime Trains - 0Z93 1627 Effingham Junction to Alton

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What happens if it deosnt work on rails? Do they just run the fast trains to Redhill or will there be no demand if they only run to Redhill?

Finally, as long as I don't mind taking an unofficial 7 minute connection at Gatwick Airport, I will be able to get from Haywards Heath to Guildford moneys to Saturday in 1 hour and 1 minute.

That's great progress compared to the timetable changes from May this year when it was faster to travel via Clapham Junction.

In the opposite direction it is about 1 hour 9 minutes. How lovely

It's been a long time coming. Gone are the days when you had to depart Haywards Heath about 40 minutes before the train departed Gatwick Airport due to poor connections. Where you could depart from Brighton later than Haywards Heath to catch the train.

Long may these connections remain.

Good - but as you say, these are unofficial and the days of such 'connections' being held are long gone, even in cases where holding for less than 30 seconds would have allowed cross-platform interchage at Redhill when the held train would then be pathed to stand outside East Croydon for four minutes (bitter? You bet, from my commuting days via Redhill!).

 

[DelW]

On the topic of the NDL, does anyone know what this working is? It's run a few times now (using 66787 - see picture) and my guess it is for driver route knowledge, but I just wanted confirmation.

Realtime Trains - 0Z93 1627 Effingham Junction to Alton

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Preparations for railhead treatment trains? IIRC they've operated from Effingham in recent years.

 

[infobleep]

On the topic of the NDL, does anyone know what this working is? It's run a few times now (using 66787 - see picture) and my guess it is for driver route knowledge, but I just wanted confirmation.

Realtime Trains - 0Z93 1627 Effingham Junction to Alton

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

View attachment 83806


Good - but as you say, these are unofficial and the days of such 'connections' being held are long gone, even in cases where holding for less than 30 seconds would have allowed cross-platform interchage at Redhill when the held train would then be pathed to stand outside East Croydon for four minutes (bitter? You bet, from my commuting days via Redhill!).

Well 7 minutes surely should be long enough to get from platform 4 to platform 1 and 2 at Gatwick Airport. I personally think the change time should be 6 minutes as it is at places like Wimbledon but that's a whole other discussion and I can't see anything ever changing.

 

[Deepgreen]

From today - is this related to the 'ghost trains'? There were no VSTP/STP "slower train" replacements for the one shown here, and the cancelled return working had the same header on RTT:

Realtime Trains - 2O29 0720 Reading to Redhill

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

From today - is this related to the 'ghost trains'? There were no VSTP/STP "slower train" replacements for the one shown here, and the cancelled return working had the same header on RTT:

Realtime Trains - 2O29 0720 Reading to Redhill

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That just appears to be an 'ordinary' cancellation to me.

 

[tornado]

I was on one of the new services recently and it provides a very welcome enhancement to this route. However, I did note that, although the train kept perfectly to schedule, it did have to slow down to 20-30mph in a few places where there is no need to slow down. Perhaps there is a problem with catching up with the previous train?

Curious that the new fast still stops at Dorking Deepdene even though this is a minor station by passenger numbers.

Also, does anyone know when they will be extending the 3tph to the whole week?

 

[JonathanH]

However, I did note that, although the train kept perfectly to schedule, it did have to slow down to 20-30mph in a few places where there is no need to slow down.

Don't forget that it is leaf fall season. I have seen a few trains struggle on leaving Reigate in recent days.

My recollection is that the usual place for headway being an issue is north of Blackwater - as is well known, there aren't many signal berths on the route.

Curious that the new fast still stops at Dorking Deepdene even though this is a minor station by passenger numbers.

Maybe they think that passenger numbers will increase if more services stop there. I think that allocation of passenger numbers between the three Dorking stations isn't an exact science in any case.

 

[Deepgreen]

That just appears to be an 'ordinary' cancellation to me.

Really? Replaced with a slower train in both directions - what does that mean in this context?

I was on one of the new services recently and it provides a very welcome enhancement to this route. However, I did note that, although the train kept perfectly to schedule, it did have to slow down to 20-30mph in a few places where there is no need to slow down. Perhaps there is a problem with catching up with the previous train?

Curious that the new fast still stops at Dorking Deepdene even though this is a minor station by passenger numbers.

Also, does anyone know when they will be extending the 3tph to the whole week?

When you day "there is no need to slow down", were there perhaps TSRs in place? Dorking is a major settlement on the route and there's an interchange with Dorking (main) and buses. To exclude it would have been bizarre. Deepdene is ungated so ticket sales may not reflect real numbers. I use(d) it frequently and it is one of the busiest on the route. If it had anything like reasonable facilities it would probably be even busier but it is woefully lacking.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I was on one of the new services recently and it provides a very welcome enhancement to this route. However, I did note that, although the train kept perfectly to schedule, it did have to slow down to 20-30mph in a few places where there is no need to slow down. Perhaps there is a problem with catching up with the previous train?

From memory the xx36 Reading-Redhill fast service has roughly (1) minute of pathing allowance approaching the section signal at Blackwater to give the preceding xx20 Reading-Redhill stopper enough time to reach North Camp. Many other services have minor pathing allowances en-route approaching junctions etc, and probably here and there for block section / headway compliance, particularly coming into Guildford.
(The fact that you state the service kept time suggests it was something the timetable allows for, playing out in practice. 1-min pathing probably results in seeing a yellow distant aspect but the section signal clearing to green on approach, which would result in a drop to 20mph or so as you experienced?)

 

[tornado]

Yes, coming from Reading the first slowdown was a little before Blackwater, and the second was almost immediately before North Camp.

Does anyone know about the acceleration performance of the new 769s? With so many stations on this route, if the stopper can get back up to speed more quickly, potentially that could provide small improvements across the timetable. Also would be interesting to know if the acceleration is better on diesel or electric.

 

[Meerkat]

Leaving Dorking out would be crazy!
I don’t understand how Deepdene has lasted this long in such a pathetic form - it desperately needs and deserves proper stairs, lifts, and shelters.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, coming from Reading the first slowdown was a little before Blackwater, and the second was almost immediately before North Camp.

Does anyone know about the acceleration performance of the new 769s? With so many stations on this route, if the stopper can get back up to speed more quickly, potentially that could provide small improvements across the timetable. Also would be interesting to know if the acceleration is better on diesel or electric.

It would be extremely unusual if it is better on diesel than electric.

Leaving Dorking out would be crazy!
I don’t understand how Deepdene has lasted this long in such a pathetic form - it desperately needs and deserves proper stairs, lifts, and shelters.

Absolutely (on both points) - it looks like a halt on an about-to-close branch line. A couple of winters ago, GWR removed both waiting shelters before Christmas without warning or providing a word of explanation on site (or anywhere else) for the entire time they were missing (the whole winter!), leaving just fenced-off areas. It has wooden platforms, long flights of poor-quality stairs to the platforms and tiny bus-type shelters which are completely inadequate for the usage.

 

[cle]

I think leaving out Dorking on a fastest tph is acceptable.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think leaving out Dorking on a fastest tph is acceptable.

Can't agree, I'm afraid. It's easily the most important station on the Surrey stretch between Reigate and Guildford and is well used (with ticket sales data being possibly misleading). As well as the town of Dorking itself, it offers an interchange with a north-south route and several bus routes. It's also doubtful if the faster journey would be of any real benefit given the apparent difficulty of fitting it into the paths en route.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know about the acceleration performance of the new 769s?

On diesel, It’s worse than the existing stock.

 

[big all]

When we first had the turbos in 93 they would leave Gatwick the same time as a vep/cig 8 car and leave them standing and having slowed down to about 30 mph for the home signal at Redhill would hear the train clattering into the sand tunnel at about 65mph??
the 319s where a bit faster than veps and cigs but not much on the third rail ??