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December 2020 Timetable Change

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Jamesrob637

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Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme gain two trains into Manchester at 10:17 and 12:22 from the 4th of April.

It's a start to restoring regular services into Manchester on Sundays (the service from Manchester is hourly which is borderline acceptable)
 
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peters

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I presume these are the missing Liverpool to Manchester Airport express services? We were expecting an uplift of 10 services in December. I think there are only 6 accounted for on RTT currently.
Marple, Mid-Cheshire & Glossop lines also affected. I've only looked at 4 timetables so far - the Buxton one is the only one I've seen so far which isn't affected
 

Greybeard33

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I presume these are the missing Liverpool to Manchester Airport express services? We were expecting an uplift of 10 services in December. I think there are only 6 accounted for on RTT currently.
The pdf only shows 8 semi-fasts on the CLC line, right through to May (including the one that goes to Wilmslow M-F). That is the same as the Working Timetable in RTT.

There are no 25 Jan changes in the pdf.
 

_toommm_

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Marple, Mid-Cheshire & Glossop lines also affected. I've only looked at 4 timetables so far - the Buxton one is the only one I've seen so far which isn't affected

Do you know what’s happening with Glossop please? Is it just the odd service or diagram cut or something more substantial?
 

peters

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Do you know what’s happening with Glossop please? Is it just the odd service or diagram cut or something more substantial?

Only thing I noticed was one missing morning peak service and one missing evening peak service but the full timetables are here: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/timetables

The pdf only shows 8 semi-fasts on the CLC line, right through to May (including the one that goes to Wilmslow M-F). That is the same as the Working Timetable in RTT.

There are no 25 Jan changes in the pdf.

There was some report that only around 94% of services were allowed for in the December timetable change and that was before the delayed reintroduction of certain services.
 

mike57

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Looking at new TPE timetable, York Scarborough service is now a shuttle all day with the exception of two late evening trains to Man Airport. Early train (05:40 ish ex Scarborough) is now reinstated. Reliabilty of York Scarborough has improved massively since a lot of services are a shuttle. Onward connection for Manchester is a 20 min wait in York. The downside of this is that Scarborough Manchester Victoria journey time is now around 2h 35m, and if you need Piccadilly or the airport you are looking at well over 3 hours. What a retrograde step from the pre 2018 situation, I know covid has affected things but this deterioration in journey times started pre covid, unless your destination is Manchester your onward departure is likely to be from Piccadilly
 

Watershed

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Looking at new TPE timetable, York Scarborough service is now a shuttle all day with the exception of two late evening trains to Man Airport. Early train (05:40 ish ex Scarborough) is now reinstated. Reliabilty of York Scarborough has improved massively since a lot of services are a shuttle. Onward connection for Manchester is a 20 min wait in York. The downside of this is that Scarborough Manchester Victoria journey time is now around 2h 35m, and if you need Piccadilly or the airport you are looking at well over 3 hours. What a retrograde step from the pre 2018 situation, I know covid has affected things but this deterioration in journey times started pre covid, unless your destination is Manchester your onward departure is likely to be from Piccadilly
I agree, unfortunately in terms of Piccadilly vs Victoria it is likely to be a very long time before things improve. Unless and until the Metrolink transfer becomes more frequent as well as fully integrated ticket-wise, it remains a major barrier to cross-Manchester changes. There are no easy solutions!

In terms of through services beyond York, I would anticipate these resuming (possibly on a partial basis) at the next timetable change. If the seaside traffic picks up dramatically then possibly even before that, perhaps on a weekend only basis.
 
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mike57

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I agree, unfortunately in terms of Piccadilly vs Victoria it is likely to be a very long time before things improve. Unless and until the Metrolink transfer becomes more frequent as well as fully integrated ticket-wise, it remains a major barrier to cross-Manchester changes. There are no easy solutions!

In terms of through services beyond York, I would anticipate these resuming (possibly on a partial basis) at the next timetable change. If the seaside traffic picks up dramatically then possibly even before that, perhaps on a weekend only basis.
If the hourly Scarborough shuttle connected with the Airport service rather than Liverpool then a lot of the problems would at least be partially addressed. I suspect that passenger flow to Piccadilly and the Airport is greater than Liverpool. When I was travelling to the NW once a week Liverpool trains arriving at Victoria were lightly loaded compared with ones from the Airport even in the rush hour.

I think through services while useful greatly impact reliability of York Scarborough services, and are only useful if you are travelling to Manchester, and don't need Piccadilly or the airport, so on balance I think I would rather have a reliable shuttle, as for most journeys I will have to change somewhere.

The pre 2018 timetable was more useful in terms of places served and reliability, the Ordsal chord added to the Castlefield problems, and the direct services to places like Warrington and Liverpool S parkway were more useful than Lea Green or Newton le Willows.
 

Watershed

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If the hourly Scarborough shuttle connected with the Airport service rather than Liverpool then a lot of the problems would at least be partially addressed. I suspect that passenger flow to Piccadilly and the Airport is greater than Liverpool. When I was travelling to the NW once a week Liverpool trains arriving at Victoria were lightly loaded compared with ones from the Airport even in the rush hour.

I think through services while useful greatly impact reliability of York Scarborough services, and are only useful if you are travelling to Manchester, and don't need Piccadilly or the airport, so on balance I think I would rather have a reliable shuttle, as for most journeys I will have to change somewhere.

The pre 2018 timetable was more useful in terms of places served and reliability, the Ordsal chord added to the Castlefield problems, and the direct services to places like Warrington and Liverpool S parkway were more useful than Lea Green or Newton le Willows.
Sending it to Liverpool (and in particular via Chat Moss) is, in truth, a matter of operational convenience rather than passenger demand. However, without something on the sliding scale between undoing May 2018, and investing something on the order of £1bn in 4-tracking and grade separating the Castlefield corridor plus Ardwick Jn, that isn't going to change.

The reality is that NPR is probably going to be built before anything like that happens, so for now we are limited to the question of which tradeoffs to make in terms of service patterns around Manchester.
 

mike57

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Sending it to Liverpool (and in particular via Chat Moss) is, in truth, a matter of operational convenience rather than passenger demand. However, without something on the sliding scale between undoing May 2018, and investing something on the order of £1bn in 4-tracking and grade separating the Castlefield corridor plus Ardwick Jn, that isn't going to change.

The reality is that NPR is probably going to be built before anything like that happens, so for now we are limited to the question of which tradeoffs to make in terms of service patterns around Manchester.
I was thinking more of the current situation, where all Scarborough services apart from 2 late evening ones are York shuttles. It would be more useful if they connected at York with the Airport service rather than Liverpool ones as this adds 30mins to Piccadilly and Airport journeys, which I would have thought have more passenger flow than Liverpool

Looking at a post Covid situation I would support undoing May 2018 as:
  • Journey times are now slower particularly where onwards connections have to be made at Piccadilly
  • Service is less reliable when a full timetable runs
  • Destinations served are less useful
  • Castlefield is always going to be a bottleneck, removing the airport trains from it will help
  • Merging the stopping services west of Huddersfield into the Hull service has proved unpopular with Hull/Selby passengers (trust me on that, a few family members from Hull used to travel to Manchester by train, but the deterioration in service means they have abandonded the railway, to be fair its not just about the extra stops and resulting overcrowding, and it was pre covid but thats another discussion)
The (white) elephant in the room is then the Ordsal Chord, in a ideal world extend the Airport stoppers to Man Vic, instead of running long distance services around it, but there are no west facing bays at Man Vic. I will probably get shouted down, but IMO it was a waste of money unless the other improvments you mention are delivered, and the money would have been better spent creating some additional passing opportunities between York and Manchester, some easy ones would be Crossgates, Slaithwaite and the Western end of the Stanedge tunnel where there is already a freight loop east bound.
 

Voyager lad

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I was thinking more of the current situation, where all Scarborough services apart from 2 late evening ones are York shuttles. It would be more useful if they connected at York with the Airport service rather than Liverpool ones as this adds 30mins to Piccadilly and Airport journeys, which I would have thought have more passenger flow than Liverpool

Looking at a post Covid situation I would support undoing May 2018 as:
  • Journey times are now slower particularly where onwards connections have to be made at Piccadilly
  • Service is less reliable when a full timetable runs
  • Destinations served are less useful
  • Castlefield is always going to be a bottleneck, removing the airport trains from it will help
  • Merging the stopping services west of Huddersfield into the Hull service has proved unpopular with Hull/Selby passengers (trust me on that, a few family members from Hull used to travel to Manchester by train, but the deterioration in service means they have abandonded the railway, to be fair its not just about the extra stops and resulting overcrowding, and it was pre covid but thats another discussion)
The (white) elephant in the room is then the Ordsal Chord, in a ideal world extend the Airport stoppers to Man Vic, instead of running long distance services around it, but there are no west facing bays at Man Vic. I will probably get shouted down, but IMO it was a waste of money unless the other improvments you mention are delivered, and the money would have been better spent creating some additional passing opportunities between York and Manchester, some easy ones would be Crossgates, Slaithwaite and the Western end of the Stanedge tunnel where there is already a freight loop east bound.
I agree with what you said about the Ordsall Chord - realistically it needs a frequent service to Piccadilly from Victoria at least every 15 mins to make it valuable. Could be made up of 2tph TPE as at present, and 2tph Northern running to Manchester Airport/ Stoke/ Crewe. However until capacity is sorted this just won’t happen. When I’m making a long distance journey from say Newcastle - Cardiff, quite often I’ll use Northern from Victoria - Salford Cres - Piccadilly purely because it’s easier than trying to squeeze on to a packed TPE
 

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The (white) elephant in the room is then the Ordsal Chord, in a ideal world extend the Airport stoppers to Man Vic, instead of running long distance services around it, but there are no west facing bays at Man Vic. I will probably get shouted down, but IMO it was a waste of money unless the other improvments you mention are delivered, and the money would have been better spent creating some additional passing opportunities between York and Manchester, some easy ones would be Crossgates, Slaithwaite and the Western end of the Stanedge tunnel where there is already a freight loop east bound.

Totally agree. With the full package of Castlefield measures it would have been beneficial, but if only one was being done (as it turned out) it was the wrong one, and thus others should have been done first.
 
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Leeds is a major market for Scarborough and waiting 20 minutes in York for a connection is bad news

To get into Leeds before 9 means leaving Hull at 0708 or 0715 whereas until the recast it was 0740.
 

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TFW are operating an hourly clockface (give a couple of minutes) Timetable between Chester and Manchester with all trains running through to and from the Airport and nothing stabling in Mayfield Loop (understand Network Rail behind that) The only exception is the current one which changes over with a Carmarthen at Piccadilly at night. There are several cases of portion working where North Wales Coast trains are involved in order to strengthen
 
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Greybeard33

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TFW are operating an hourly clockface (give a couple of minutes) Timetable between Chester and Manchester with all trains running through to and from the Airport and nothing stabling in Mayfield Loop (understand Network Rail behind that) The only exception is the current one which changes over with a Carmarthen at Piccadilly at night. There are several cases of portion working where North Wales Coast trains are involved in order to strengthen
I believe that the change in the TfW peak Chester - Manchester services (hourly through to the Airport, instead of half hourly to Piccadilly, reversing in the Mayfield Loop) forms part of the initial output from the cross-industry North West Recovery Task Force, coordinated by Network Rail, and is intended to reduce congestion in the Castlefield corridor. To maintain peak frequency between Chester and Manchester, Northern's peak Leeds - Ellesmere Port services are diverted to Chester, with a replacement shuttle betwen Helsby and Ellesmere Port.

The net result is one fewer train path per peak hour through the Castlefield corridor (relative to the pre-Covid timetable), without any increase in paths through Victoria.

At least until May 2021, there is also one fewer TPE service through Castlefield than pre-Covid, with the hourly Newcastle - Airport diverted to Liverpool and the hourly Edinburgh/Newcastle - Liverpool curtailed to 2tpd Edinburgh - Newcastle.
 

Geeves

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Here's an update to the missing trains mentioned earlier on the Northern front (Covid cuts from the 14th)

The following trains will not run.
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Glossop/Hadfield (06.47 - 07.27)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Glossop/Hadfield (16.44 - 17.28)
  • Hadfield – Manchester Piccadilly (07.21 - 08.06)
  • Hadfield - Manchester Piccadilly (17.31 - 18.03)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield (09.42 - 11.04)
  • Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly (11.14 - 12.32)
  • Chester - Manchester Piccadilly (14.02 - 15.30)
  • Chester - Manchester Piccadilly (18.01 - 19.30)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Chester (15.41 - 17.28)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Chester (19.40 - 21.10)
 

PHILIPE

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TFW have on many routes reduced their service by up to 50%. These include the Cardiff Valleys and Chester to Liverpool. Others cut back such as Holyhead to Cardiff run to Shrewsbury only and Swansea to Pembroke Dock running from Carmarthen and also some cut backs at night. It is more or less the current level as per the COVID Timetable.
 
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peters

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Here's an update to the missing trains mentioned earlier on the Northern front (Covid cuts from the 14th)

The following trains will not run.
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Glossop/Hadfield (06.47 - 07.27)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Glossop/Hadfield (16.44 - 17.28)
  • Hadfield – Manchester Piccadilly (07.21 - 08.06)
  • Hadfield - Manchester Piccadilly (17.31 - 18.03)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield (09.42 - 11.04)
  • Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly (11.14 - 12.32)
  • Chester - Manchester Piccadilly (14.02 - 15.30)
  • Chester - Manchester Piccadilly (18.01 - 19.30)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Chester (15.41 - 17.28)
  • Manchester Piccadilly - Chester (19.40 - 21.10)
To be pedantic they are some of the services not running currently, which were supposed to be reintroduced in mid-Dec but now won't be.
 

Scotrail314209

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Looks like Avanti have pulled the Glasgow - Birmingham - London services in December again. The paths were in but have been altered to start from either Blackpool or Preston. The Edinburgh is still running.

Quite shameful as CrossCountry aren’t bringing back a full service to Glasgow, meaning it will take longer to get to Birmingham.
 

Peter0124

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Looks like Avanti have pulled the Glasgow - Birmingham - London services in December again. The paths were in but have been altered to start from either Blackpool or Preston. The Edinburgh is still running.

Quite shameful as CrossCountry aren’t bringing back a full service to Glasgow, meaning it will take longer to get to Birmingham.
I'm hoping by May the Avanti route will be back to normal considering the vaccines but I'm not sure, I miss the London-Brum-Scot trains that goto Glasgow
 

Jamesrob637

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To be pedantic they are some of the services not running currently, which were supposed to be reintroduced in mid-Dec but now won't be.

I was going to say likewise. They will be put in/back at some point after this month, but before the next timetable change in May '21. The service to Chester via Altrincham will be slightly better than currently, but not quite back to pre-COVID.
 

peters

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I was going to say likewise. They will be put in/back at some point after this month, but before the next timetable change in May '21. The service to Chester via Altrincham will be slightly better than currently, but not quite back to pre-COVID.

25 January is the date the timetables say. Then it'll just be the missing 2 morning Chester-Stockport services, the 07:40 Manchester-Chester and the second evening Stockport-Chester service that will be missing. Well, unless you argue that the Mon-Sat service should have half-hourly for the main stations and the Sun service should have been hourly for all stations and that the Stockport only services should be running to and from Manchester.
 

Class 466

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Most of Southeastern's revised Weekday timetable from 4th January is up now, an enhanced version of the reduced timetable they introduced in November. Thankfully HS1 Rounders still aren't running! I've outlined the rough off peak patterns below:

High Speed:
  • 1tph STP - MAR via AFK
  • 1tph STP - RAM via FAV
  • 1tph STP - DVP via AFK
Chatham Mainline:
  • 1tph VIC - DVP via FAV (semi-fast)
  • 1tph VIC - RAM via FAV (semi-fast)
  • 1tph VIC - GLM via DMK (stopper)
  • 2tph VIC - ORP via HNH (all stations)
  • 2tph SIT - SSS
South Eastern Mainline:
  • 1tph CHX - RAM via CBW
  • 1tph CHX - RAM via DVP
  • 2tph CST- ORP via LEW
  • 2tph CHX - SEV
  • 3tph GRP - BMN
Hastings Line:
  • 2tph CHX - TBW
  • 1tph CHX - HGS (slow)
  • 1tph CHX - HGS (fast)
North Kent & Greenwich Lines:
  • 2tph CST - CST via GNW then SID
  • 2tph CHX - DFD via LEW & WWA
  • 2tph TL LUT - RAI
Sidcup Line:
  • 2tph CHX - GRV
  • 2tph CST - CST via SID then GNW
Bexleyheath Line:
  • 2tph VIC - DFD
  • 2tph CHX - DFD
Hayes Line:
  • 2tph CHX - HYS
  • 2tph CST - HYS via LEW
Medway Valley:
  • 1tph SOO - MDW
  • 1tph SOO - PDW (with only a few extentions to TON)
 

MikeWM

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Great Northern (the outers, at least) seem to be claiming that they will be on a 'normal' timetable from Sunday, including services that were meant to start in May (eg. the 0941 Ely-Kings Cross, which would probably have become my commute of choice if I were still going into the office). Is this right? Not complaining it if is, but it is perhaps a little surprising.

See https://timetables.southernrailway.com/SN/#/timetables/253/Table A, linked from their timetables page here.

And the 8-car services from Kings Lynn do indeed appear to be starting then, which is excellent. About time!

Interestingly, there is only one train marked as 'busy' in the whole southbound timetable - the 0917 off Ely, as far as Cambridge. Now this indeed used to be a busy train, but seems odd it is the only one so marked. Is that one still going to be 4-car rather than 8 for some reason?
 

bramling

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Great Northern (the outers, at least) seem to be claiming that they will be on a 'normal' timetable from Sunday, including services that were meant to start in May (eg. the 0941 Ely-Kings Cross, which would probably have become my commute of choice if I were still going into the office). Is this right? Not complaining it if is, but it is perhaps a little surprising.

See https://timetables.southernrailway.com/SN/#/timetables/253/Table A, linked from their timetables page here.

And the 8-car services from Kings Lynn do indeed appear to be starting then, which is excellent. About time!

Interestingly, there is only one train marked as 'busy' in the whole southbound timetable - the 0917 off Ely, as far as Cambridge. Now this indeed used to be a busy train, but seems odd it is the only one so marked. Is that one still going to be 4-car rather than 8 for some reason?

Can’t comment across the board, however GN is certainly not back to a 100% service. From a relatively cursory glance through it, 50% of the peak Baldocks are missing along the the three evening Baldocks, and one of the Peterborough peaks. Likewise there are plenty of 717 services missing too, for example the peak Gordon Hills. There’s also no peak Welwyn - KX 700 services. The evening fast Peterboroughs return (including against the flow to get the stock in place), which personally I’m surprised is a priority.

So certainly not a full service. I think the 387 services are largely normal, indeed they’ve been since September, south of Cambridge at any rate. Pretty much everything will be 8-car to Kings Lynn from next week, though there are the odd 4-cars in there in places.

All in all it’s a bit messy, though no doubt this is a reflection of having to deliver as much as possible with depleted resources.
 

The Planner

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The coming year for the timetable is a bit more complicated now anyway, there will be four opportunities to tweak, but nothing major allowed until we get some sort of normality back.
 

MikeWM

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Can’t comment across the board, however GN is certainly not back to a 100% service. From a relatively cursory glance through it, 50% of the peak Baldocks are missing along the the three evening Baldocks, and one of the Peterborough peaks. Likewise there are plenty of 717 services missing too, for example the peak Gordon Hills. There’s also no peak Welwyn - KX 700 services. The evening fast Peterboroughs return (including against the flow to get the stock in place), which personally I’m surprised is a priority.

So certainly not a full service. I think the 387 services are largely normal, indeed they’ve been since September, south of Cambridge at any rate. Pretty much everything will be 8-car to Kings Lynn from next week, though there are the odd 4-cars in there in places.

All in all it’s a bit messy, though no doubt this is a reflection of having to deliver as much as possible with depleted resources.

Interesting, thanks, I'm less familiar with the exact pattern up the line from Cambridge so wouldn't spot those.

It does seem on the outers that on weekdays we're switching from what was effectively a Saturday timetable to the actual weekday timetable, though admittedly there isn't a vast amount of difference outside the peaks.
 

bramling

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Interesting, thanks, I'm less familiar with the exact pattern up the line from Cambridge so wouldn't spot those.

It does seem on the outers that on weekdays we're switching from what was effectively a Saturday timetable to the actual weekday timetable, though admittedly there isn't a vast amount of difference outside the peaks.

I think it’s largely been a weekday timetable since September, the exception being the 2Cxx services which have maintained a Saturday pattern (eg shirt turnarounds at KX and 1tph reversing are Royston) no doubt because it saves resources. The core services revert to weekday pattern, with things like Gatwick to Peterborough in the morning, however as far as the passenger is concerned this will mean little change as the weekday and Saturday core service is essentially the same from a usability point of view.

The 8-car Brighton to Cambridge diagram should be gone. This was actually scheduled to go in the original May weekday timetable, which of course never came to fruition.

A couple of small changes to come, there will be 387 activity on some Baldock services. Also there are going to be some 700/0s to Kings Lynn (this is easier now dividing at Cambridge is going to be heavily reduced). I can’t see this being particularly popular, not if it’s from next week or just for the engineering works next year. 365s returning to Kings Lynn is not possible due to the lack of DOO monitors.
 

MikeWM

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Also there are going to be some 700/0s to Kings Lynn (this is easier now dividing at Cambridge is going to be heavily reduced). I can’t see this being particularly popular, not if it’s from next week or just for the engineering works next year. 365s returning to Kings Lynn is not possible due to the lack of DOO monitors.

Oh, well that's just marvellous. Can this wretched year get any worse?!
 

bramling

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Oh, well that's just marvellous. Can this wretched year get any worse?!

I wouldn’t worry too much, it’s only for a handful of trips per day so should be easy enough to avoid. I think it’s during the work next year.

Certainly with the peak Welwyns missing this means there will be a couple of spare 700/0s on the GN side. Currently for example there are normally one or two units which sit at Welwyn sidings all week and get changed over every now and again.

The May timetable would have had 3x 700/0 starting and finishing at Welwyn each day, however the Covid changes have changed this to zero, the units simply being stabled there all day instead. From memory I think one will run from there from next week, which will do one service to Kings Cross in the early morning and then go onto KX/Cambridge, with the reverse at the end of the day.
 
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