Kenilworth Station Closure

[cambran]

How ironic that trains cease to serve Kenilworth from Monday 18th January, exactly 56 years from the previous closure in 1965.

 

[paul1609]

Yet on other operators (GWR) it happens (Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff) with local door only with tiny platforms, and in Scotland with Beauly/Conor Bridge

Are Class 171s the only class that can do 1 car de-select? IE both sets of doors open in the coach that is alongside the platform? (Three Oaks and Doleham on Marshlink)

 

[Adam Williams]

This is really disappointing news and I feel for Tony, who runs the independent ticket office/café. I am hopeful the council will be able to organise grants during the period of bustitution.

WMR have been unreliable for a while now for us - I've ended up "stranded" in Leamington before now when the last train of the day has been cancelled.

Particularly now - when the science would suggest that minimising transport time and allowing for social distancing as much as possible is a good thing - RRBs and/or directing folks to the 11/X17 are objectively worse.

 

[RT4038]

This is really disappointing news and I feel for Tony, who runs the independent ticket office/café. I am hopeful the council will be able to organise grants during the period of bustitution.

WMR have been unreliable for a while now for us - I've ended up "stranded" in Leamington before now when the last train of the day has been cancelled.

Particularly now - when the science would suggest that minimising transport time and allowing for social distancing as much as possible is a good thing - RRBs and/or directing folks to the 11/X17 are objectively worse.

For the number of passengers actually travelling, I don't think it is really a big deal.

 

[DarloRich]

Is it just me, but it always seems that whoever operates the "West Midlands & stoppers on towards Euston" franchise always seems to do at best an underwhelming, and at worst, a spectacularly inept job of it?

For instance, I'm (fortunately) not a user of either the Bedford - Bletchley or Watford - St. Albans Abbey lines, but both seem to be regular candidates for complete withdrawal of service.

And now Kenilworth.

We are used to it. At the moment our line ( Marston Vale) is used for stock transfer runs and little else. it has been that way for much of COVID. However, grumbling aside if you have limited resource due to a vast pandemic causing staff absence which service do you prioritise? Rural branch lines that can be easily replaced by buses or services on the core WCML?

it is an easy choice really.

 

[RT4038]

We are used to it. At the moment our line ( Marston Vale) is used for stock transfer runs and little else. it has been that way for much of COVID. However, grumbling aside if you have limited resource due to a vast pandemic causing staff absence which service do you prioritise? Rural branch lines that can be easily replaced by buses or services on the core WCML?

it is an easy choice really.

Quite. Especially with the Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington service which, aside from the RRBs, has very frequent and comprehensive paralleling bus services nearby or at every station, to cater for every need.

As you say, an easy choice.

 

[davetheguard]

Quite. Especially with the Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington service which, aside from the RRBs, has very frequent and comprehensive paralleling bus services nearby or at every station, to cater for every need.

As you say, an easy choice.

An easy choice doesn't make it the right choice.

If you're short of staff, you can cancel one diagram of main line trains out & return, and passengers might have to wait half an hour for the next one. If you instead choose to cancel the branch line diagram, you lose the entire service for half the day. Or all day in the case of Kenilworth.

Considering how much effort it took and how unbelievably long it took to get that station re-opened (years and years) it must be hugely disappointing for anyone who has now come to rely on it. The modern railway industry just seems to give up too often and much too easily; if we're not careful, one day a politician in Westminster is going to use all these examoples of bustitution as a excuse to close railways completely.

 

[The Planner]

Depends on how they weighted the decision, is moving someone on to the frequent bus for the shorter journey more disadvantaged than someone making the long distance one who may decide to not make it all if the frequency is less and has no other option? The issue with Kenilworth wasn't down the rail industry per se, it was substantially third party driven.

 

[Energy]

Depends on how they weighted the decision, is moving someone on to the frequent bus for the shorter journey more disadvantaged than someone making the long distance one who may decide to not make it all if the frequency is less and has no other option? The issue with Kenilworth wasn't down the rail industry per se, it was substantially third party driven.

The bus isn't a big problem for this journey, Kenilworth to Leamington and Coventry are frequent and short journeys while Coventry to Nuneaton is about 40 minutes by bus and also very frequent. Out of the routes to cut this one is one of the better ones in the WMT network.

 

[RT4038]

An easy choice doesn't make it the right choice.

If you're short of staff, you can cancel one diagram of main line trains out & return, and passengers might have to wait half an hour for the next one. If you instead choose to cancel the branch line diagram, you lose the entire service for half the day. Or all day in the case of Kenilworth.

Considering how much effort it took and how unbelievably long it took to get that station re-opened (years and years) it must be hugely disappointing for anyone who has now come to rely on it. The modern railway industry just seems to give up too often and much too easily; if we're not careful, one day a politician in Westminster is going to use all these examoples of bustitution as a excuse to close railways completely.

The service is being replaced by buses. You are not losing the service. It is just being substituted. There are plenty of other buses too.

I not sure how unbelievably long it took to get the station re-opened has any bearing on the decision. How many passengers are affected, and how their journeys are affected is more to the point. Not many passengers are using the services, and the journeys affected are quite short.

Many businesses are having to realise that their business may be completely different (and possibly shrunken) after this crisis, and the Railway is no different in this regard.

 

[DarloRich]

An easy choice doesn't make it the right choice.

If you're short of staff, you can cancel one diagram of main line trains out & return, and passengers might have to wait half an hour for the next one. If you instead choose to cancel the branch line diagram, you lose the entire service for half the day. Or all day in the case of Kenilworth.

Considering how much effort it took and how unbelievably long it took to get that station re-opened (years and years) it must be hugely disappointing for anyone who has now come to rely on it. The modern railway industry just seems to give up too often and much too easily; if we're not careful, one day a politician in Westminster is going to use all these examoples of bustitution as a excuse to close railways completely.

No: Its both the right choice and the easy choice in the circumstances we find our-self in.

We have had no trains on our line for much of the last year. There are still a few people using the service but the trains have had 3 or 4 people on them tops. Stick them on a bus and put your resource where it will deliver the most return. After all many ( but not all) of us are able to work from home so aren't out and about.

Whats the point carting about nowt, wasting resource and burning up asset life for nothing? Now I see an argument for "key worker travel" but little else. In offering that service you have to know your passenger base and fit their needs to your staffing availability.

You also have to acknowledge that with poor staff availability you cant gaurnetee to run the advertised service and indicate that due to short notice changes in availability you may not be able to offer a bus replacement. That is less of an issue on the mainline with a train of whatever colour every 15/20 minutes. On the branch lines it is nothing like that. I am not sure that works for passengers either!

I have been that passenger many many many many times. I would rather they cancelled a days service and put a bus on than did nothing and I had to resort to shanks pony rail or a cab.

 

[Energy]

An easy choice doesn't make it the right choice.

If you're short of staff, you can cancel one diagram of main line trains out & return, and passengers might have to wait half an hour for the next one. If you instead choose to cancel the branch line diagram, you lose the entire service for half the day. Or all day in the case of Kenilworth.

Considering how much effort it took and how unbelievably long it took to get that station re-opened (years and years) it must be hugely disappointing for anyone who has now come to rely on it. The modern railway industry just seems to give up too often and much too easily; if we're not careful, one day a politician in Westminster is going to use all these examoples of bustitution as a excuse to close railways completely.

If you have to run rail replacement buses then the NUCKLE makes a lot of sense as it is relatively short and fast, frequent bus services already run. It isn't ideal but it doesn't inconvenience many passengers.

 

[HLE]

If you have to run rail replacement buses then the NUCKLE makes a lot of sense as it is relatively short and fast, frequent bus services already run. It isn't ideal but it doesn't inconvenience many passengers.

Correct post March. Before March during the peaks it was rammed.

 

[Energy]

Correct post March. Before March during the peaks it was rammed.

When did they introduce 172s onto the branch?

 

[sufian123]

When did they introduce 172s onto the branch?

Since 2019

 

[davetheguard]

I not sure how unbelievably long it took to get the station re-opened has any bearing on the decision

I mentioned it because it just feels like a breach of trust by the railway to me. Vast amount of effort by lots of local people and councils to get a station back in their town after years of trying, extra expense to make provision for track doubling which the railway (or the DfT?) then decided it wasn't going to do anyway, only for a complete cancellation of the train service seemingly at the drop of a hat.

Yes of course I know that there's hardly anyone travelling at the moment, but that applies to large sections of the network. Others have rightly pointed out that replacement buses are running, but what's the road congestion like in Coventry & Leamington? Buses are often an inferior replacement for trains; Warwick has no doubt had buses to these places for decades, but it didn't stop them wanting their station back did it?!

Perhaps The Planner could clarify his comment about how the decision was made: "third party driven"? As I'd expect, he clearly knows more about this than I do!

 

[Energy]

but what's the road congestion like in Coventry & Leamington?

The roads between the stations are pretty good.

Warwick has no doubt had buses to these places for decades, but it didn't stop them wanting their station back did it?!

Warwick station is quite far from the centre of Warwick itself. It also never closed. If you are talking about Warwick Parkway that is further out from Warwick and more serves that general area, not Warwick specifically, and exists because it has far more car parking spaces than Leamington and Warwick, its intended for people to park their car and go on a trip to London or Birmingham.

 

[Glenn1969]

RTT shows the bus as running until the end of Feb. Does what happens after that depend on whether we are still in lockdown?

 

[RT4038]

I mentioned it because it just feels like a breach of trust by the railway to me. Vast amount of effort by lots of local people and councils to get a station back in their town after years of trying, extra expense to make provision for track doubling which the railway (or the DfT?) then decided it wasn't going to do anyway, only for a complete cancellation of the train service seemingly at the drop of a hat.

Yes of course I know that there's hardly anyone travelling at the moment, but that applies to large sections of the network. Others have rightly pointed out that replacement buses are running, but what's the road congestion like in Coventry & Leamington? Buses are often an inferior replacement for trains; Warwick has no doubt had buses to these places for decades, but it didn't stop them wanting their station back did it?!

Perhaps The Planner could clarify his comment about how the decision was made: "third party driven"? As I'd expect, he clearly knows more about this than I do!

There are very small numbers of passengers using trains in general at the moment, and particularly on this line. It is true that more could be run by replacement buses, but if that means the staff are going to be paid for sitting around then I doubt it would be a more economical option.

I still don't know what this vast amount of effort has got to do with a temporary substitution of service, by buses, due to staffing shortages during this pandemic? Hopefully sufficient custom comes back after the pandemic to warrant a reinstation of train service.

 

[HLE]

When did they introduce 172s onto the branch?

May 2019, as a previous poster has commented. This, coupled with the direct service being introduced saw passenger numbers increase, albeit over a 2 car unit rather than 140 people being wedged into a 153.

The 0815 was the busiest following the May 19 TT change.

 

[Whistler40145]

Which depot provides the train crew?

 

[davetheguard]

The roads between the stations are pretty good.

Warwick station is quite far from the centre of Warwick itself. It also never closed. If you are talking about Warwick Parkway that is further out from Warwick and more serves that general area, not Warwick specifically, and exists because it has far more car parking spaces than Leamington and Warwick, its intended for people to park their car and go on a trip to London or Birmingham.

I'm not sure why I wrote Warwick! I still meant to be referring to Kenilworth.

 

[HLE]

RTT shows the bus as running until the end of Feb. Does what happens after that depend on whether we are still in lockdown?

Which depot provides the train crew?

Both Leamington and Cov (link 1 only)

 

[Whistler40145]

Both Leamington and Cov (link 1 only)

Both Leamington and Cov (link 1 only)

Logically, if Birmingham area had sufficient train crew, they could've covered the diagrams using different DMUs

 

[davetheguard]

There are very small numbers of passengers using trains in general at the moment, and particularly on this line. It is true that more could be run by replacement buses, but if that means the staff are going to be paid for sitting around then I doubt it would be a more economical option.

I still don't know what this vast amount of effort has got to do with a temporary substitution of service, by buses, due to staffing shortages during this pandemic? Hopefully sufficient custom comes back after the pandemic to warrant a reinstation of train service.

No, you've misunderstood my point. I'm not advocating that more routes should have their train service removed in favour of buses; quite the opposite. What I was questioning was why this particular line -and also as it turns out DarloRich's Bedford to Bletchley route- have been singled out? (perhaps you've answered that if usage really is that much lower than elsewhere).

As for your comment about "sufficient custom coming back after the pandemic to warrant a restoration of train service", that's the worry isn't it? Much easier to permanently remove something that's not actually there anymore, than cut a train service that still runs. And that's why I still think as a general principle that when you're short of traincrew you should slightly thin the main line service rather than suspending the entire train service on branches.

 

[HLE]

Logically, if Birmingham area had sufficient train crew, they could've covered the diagrams using different DMUs

They don't sign the route. Used to get a few of their drivers on the branch when doing 153 handling as it was a single unit whereas the Rugeleys were coupled to a 170 but that's about it.

The Planner alludes to a 3rd party playing a part in this decision. He's/She's correct. It's not completely down to train crew, even December's reduction wasn't.

 

[Whistler40145]

They don't sign the route. Used to get a few of their drivers on the branch when doing 153 handling as it was a single unit whereas the Rugeleys were coupled to a 170 but that's about it.

The Planner alludes to a 3rd party playing a part in this decision. He's/She's correct. It's not completely down to train crew, even December's reduction wasn't.

More likely to be classed as a service that WMR don't want to run

 

[HLE]

More likely to be classed as a service that WMR don't want to run

Funny you mention that. Got talking to a chap on there a few years ago who worked for the council. He said the council actually partly subsidised the running of the service, this was before the 2 new stations opened though so a good few years back.

 

[RT4038]

No, you've misunderstood my point. I'm not advocating that more routes should have their train service removed in favour of buses; quite the opposite. What I was questioning was why this particular line -and also as it turns out DarloRich's Bedford to Bletchley route- have been singled out? (perhaps you've answered that if usage really is that much lower than elsewhere).

As for your comment about "sufficient custom coming back after the pandemic to warrant a restoration of train service", that's the worry isn't it? Much easier to permanently remove something that's not actually there anymore, than cut a train service that still runs. And that's why I still think as a general principle that when you're short of traincrew you should slightly thin the main line service rather than suspending the entire train service on branches.

Like lots of other businesses that have reduced or closed down, there will be a concern that there might not be enough business to restart later. I don't see why the Railway should be cushioned from this possibility when many other businesses do not have this luxury.

The 'general principle' should be that the subsitutions are the most effective in saving train crew, taking into account shortages, passenger usage and ease of substitution. Not worrying about whether suspension may be permanent or otherwise.

 

[The Planner]

I mentioned it because it just feels like a breach of trust by the railway to me. Vast amount of effort by lots of local people and councils to get a station back in their town after years of trying, extra expense to make provision for track doubling which the railway (or the DfT?) then decided it wasn't going to do anyway, only for a complete cancellation of the train service seemingly at the drop of a hat.

Yes of course I know that there's hardly anyone travelling at the moment, but that applies to large sections of the network. Others have rightly pointed out that replacement buses are running, but what's the road congestion like in Coventry & Leamington? Buses are often an inferior replacement for trains; Warwick has no doubt had buses to these places for decades, but it didn't stop them wanting their station back did it?!

Perhaps The Planner could clarify his comment about how the decision was made: "third party driven"? As I'd expect, he clearly knows more about this than I do!

I was on about the station saga about getting it built and open, people moan about NR as it is but Kenilworth is a fairly good example of third party isn't necessarily better. The timetable aspect is WMTs decision.