A language question

[Bungle158]

With regard to Vauxhall, the word
became synonymous for pleasure gardens, based on the London facility. The Russians had one, not far from the town of Pavlosk. It later became the terminus of the first Russian rail ine. So the word vokzal, originally pleasue garden, conceivably morphed into 'railway station'

 

[Calthrop]

@Bungle158 said, re Vauxhall: "...pleasure gardens, based on the London facility. The Russians had one... it later became the terminus of the first Russian rail line. So the word vokzal, originally pleasure garden, conceivably morphed into 'railway station'."


It would appear to me that the above explanation is "joint front-runner" with that below (Russian delegation in London in railways' early days) --


@Alfonso said: "...Russians called their stations Vauxhall (more or less) following the Tsar's advisers' visit to South London to see the newfangled railway."

@etr221 said: "...from the original Nine Elms terminal of L&SR (before it became L&SWR) -- or rather the more impressive establishment (pleasure garden) next door, which was mistaken for the station by whichever Russian took the word home..."

The accepted account in Russia about Voksal for station is that the Czar, Nikolai I, was personally interested in the first railway, and sent their pioneer engineers to the London & Southampton Railway, which was nearing completion. Due to a translation misunderstanding they thought Vauxhall, the initial London end, was the word for terminus, rather than the district of London it was in.

I suspect that at this distance in time, we'll never know for sure how this language oddity came about.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quite a few common words are recognisable in other Slavic languages if you know the word in Russian - but I can't think of any language (not even Belarusian) where I've seen voksal used for station.

The word Vokzal is prominently displayed on the facades of Lviv and Kyiv (below) main stations in Ukraine.
Which brings up another ex-USSR oddity: using Pasazhyrskyi (or variants) for the name of their main stations (ie passenger station).

 

[Calthrop]

Croatian has a name for using (and inventing) Slav words e.g. months are totally different from western ones, whereas Serbian months are similar to ours. Kolodvor is an example; so are zračna luka for airport (Serbian is aerodrom) and zrakoplov for aircraft (avion). Train is vlak in Croatian and voz in Serbian. Not all neologisms take off - zrakomlat for helikopter is regarded as a joke except by hardcore grievance nationalists.

Some of this seems to go back to the Austrian empire where not using German sounding words was a political gesture - music is glazba rather than muzika. Since 1918 it has been more about being different from the Serbs.

Thank you -- interesting. I'd been aware that some Croatian and Serbian words for the same thing, differed from each other (e.g. vlak and voz as mentioned); but didn't realise that this was for the Croats, an issue of this degree of magnitude.

Slovenian uses postaja for a station and postajališče for a halt. Both are derived from the verb stati (to stand, to stop). There is also kolodvor ("wheel-court") which is a bit archaic but still understood just fine, and the colloquial štacjon which is loaned from Italian stazione.

It would seem then, that Slovenian has re this matter, "a bit of everything" -- including an element all of its own. The general picture which one gets, is that re south-Slav-dom in general, Slovenia is and always has been something of "a place apart".


Concerning month-names, as in @oldman's post above: the thing of Croatian unusualness in this matter, brought to mind for me something similar which I'd once read, about Lithuanian. A bit of investigation via Google, was prompted, re this stuff in the various Slavonic languages. It would appear thence -- month-names which are not the "Latin" ones (January, February, etc.) of most languages, but instead names chiefly based on the natural, and farming, seasons of the year: obtain in Croatian, Lithuanian, and Czech (seemingly some "correspondences" here between the different languages' month-lists, but more differences). "Latin" month-names are used in Serbian (as above); and Russian, Slovak, Bulgarian, and Latvian; also in Slovenian -- but this language also has old-fashioned seasons-based names, which it appears have not dropped totally out of use. From what I can make out, Polish month-names are a mixture of Latin, and "seasonal" !

 

[takno]

Thank you -- interesting. I'd been aware that some Croatian and Serbian words for the same thing, differed from each other (e.g. vlak and voz as mentioned); but didn't realise that this was for the Croats, an issue of this degree of magnitude.




It would seem then, that Slovenian has re this matter, "a bit of everything" -- including an element all of its own. The general picture which one gets, is that re south-Slav-dom in general, Slovenia is and always has been something of "a place apart".


Concerning month-names, as in @oldman's post above: the thing of Croatian unusualness in this matter, brought to mind for me something similar which I'd once read, about Lithuanian. A bit of investigation via Google, was prompted, re this stuff in the various Slavonic languages. It would appear thence -- month-names which are not the "Latin" ones (January, February, etc.) of most languages, but instead names chiefly based on the natural, and farming, seasons of the year: obtain in Croatian, Lithuanian, and Czech (seemingly some "correspondences" here between the different languages' month-lists, but more differences). "Latin" month-names are used in Serbian (as above); and Russian, Slovak, Bulgarian, and Latvian; also in Slovenian -- but this language also has old-fashioned seasons-based names, which it appears have not dropped totally out of use. From what I can make out, Polish month-names are a mixture of Latin, and "seasonal" !

I think Lithuanian is Baltic which is quite different from Slavic - certainly I can't make any sense of it or Latvian where I usually can with Slavic languages. They may well have the same approach with months though - it makes more sense than our misnumbered Roman approach.

Not that it helps me much with the months in Polish. I just cannot consistently remember them at all

 

[Calthrop]

I think Lithuanian is Baltic which is quite different from Slavic - certainly I can't make any sense of it or Latvian where I usually can with Slavic languages. They may well have the same approach with months though - it makes more sense than our misnumbered Roman approach.

Not that it helps me much with the months in Polish. I just cannot consistently remember them at all

I find this language stuff interesting, but am none too knowledgeable about it... Had thought Lithuanian and Latvian to be Slavic outliers (unlike Estonian, completely unrelated and in fact not Indo-European); a bit of further reference tells me that Lith. and Latv. are indeed Baltic tongues -- the only two members of a separate branch of the whole European language classification. Apologies for un-clued-up-ness here !

 

[martinsh]

Concerning month-names, as in @oldman's post above: the thing of Croatian unusualness in this matter, brought to mind for me something similar which I'd once read, about Lithuanian. A bit of investigation via Google, was prompted, re this stuff in the various Slavonic languages. It would appear thence -- month-names which are not the "Latin" ones (January, February, etc.) of most languages, but instead names chiefly based on the natural, and farming, seasons of the year: obtain in Croatian, Lithuanian, and Czech (seemingly some "correspondences" here between the different languages' month-lists, but more differences). "Latin" month-names are used in Serbian (as above); and Russian, Slovak, Bulgarian, and Latvian; also in Slovenian -- but this language also has old-fashioned seasons-based names, which it appears have not dropped totally out of use. From what I can make out, Polish month-names are a mixture of Latin, and "seasonal" !

Latvian months are clearly based on the "Latin" ones, but in addition "janvaris" means "virgin" !!

I find this language stuff interesting, but am none too knowledgeable about it... Had thought Lithuanian and Latvian to be Slavic outliers (unlike Estonian, completely unrelated and in fact not Indo-European); a bit of further reference tells me that Lith. and Latv. are indeed Baltic tongues -- the only two members of a separate branch of the whole European language classification. Apologies for un-clued-up-ness here !

Apology accepted. You can buy me a beer when we meet up !

 

[Calthrop]

Latvian months are clearly based on the "Latin" ones, but in addition "janvaris" means "virgin" !!

Apology accepted. You can buy me a beer when we meet up !

I should know to, around you, mind my P's and Q's where Latvia is concerned -- assuming that Latvian uses the letter Q !

Re odd meanings to month names, as with Latvian January above; I find that Croatian's December-equivalent -- prosinac -- means "begging month". Irritating kids bawling carols, and expecting money for it...?

 

[Panceltic]

You're quite correct, Latvian and Lithuanian are Baltic languages (not Slavic) but they are the closest relatives of Slavic languages - both trace their origins to Proto-Balto-Slavic which is one of the branches of Indo-European.

As a Slavic speaker, I found it quite easy to learn Lithuanian. The grammar is basically the same and the language works in a very familiar way, you just need to learn the vocabulary which is either cognate and kinda clear (you start to see patterns after a while, like e.g. Slovenian postaja and Lithuanian stotis, the verbs in question being stati and stoti) or it's something completely alien, but hey we live to learn!

Regarding months in Slovenian, we use the Latin-derived ones for everything but the old "native" names are invariably displayed on the calendars as well, and everyone knows what they mean. But you won't actively use them at all, quite an interesting situation. Also prosinec is January here ... There is an interesting pattern of the same names meaning different months the further north you go (Croatia, Czechia, Poland) because the eponymous agricultural activity (linden bloom, harvest, etc.) takes place later in more northerly places.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The word Vokzal is prominently displayed on the facades of Lviv and Kyiv (below) main stations in Ukraine.
Which brings up another ex-USSR oddity: using Pasazhyrskyi (or variants) for the name of their main stations (ie passenger station).

View attachment 89162

Aha - thanks for this - I sit corrected.

Pivo is a useful word to know in Slavonic countries and it usually tastes better than it sounds.

Absolutely!

Can anyone confirm / correct my impressions from -- as I mention upthread -- attempted looking into the words for "station" in various European languages: concerning that of the peoples of what was Yugoslavia? (by my understanding, essentially the same language throughout; with the exception of Slovene, which differs considerably).

Not exactly. I believe linguists have always considered - rightly in my view - Serbo-Croat to be one language (though now talked of as Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin according to politics/geography since the split/dismemberment/whatever of Yugoslavia in the 1990s). However, both Slovenian and Macedonian are distinct languages. The country also had both Hungarian and Albanian as official languages, including on banknotes and so on. (Vojvodina - an autonomous province in the north of the Serbian constituent republic - using Hungarian as well as Serbo-Croat, Kosovo, in the south ditto, using Albanian as well as Serbo-Croat.) So you'd often see something official with the same thing on it 6 times (Serbo-Croat in both Latin script and Cyrillic script, plus the other 4). It is true, however, that a smattering of Serbo-Croat might get you by pretty much anywhere, partly because the Slovenian and Macedonian languages are related to Serbo-Croat anyway, and partly because S-C was the "largest" of the languages and was widely understood.

In terms of the different versions of Serbo-Croat, there is of course the obvious one re the alphabet, which correlates - though not perfectly - with a religious divide (Orthodox/Catholic), and with Serbian or Croatian "identity". Yes, there are some vocabulary differences - but the most significant ones, such as the months, presumably relate to matters of differing religious/cultural history. But the important thing to remember, when language nationalists try to say that Serbian and Croatian were different all along, is that the main dialectal divide within Serbo-Croat actually cuts across the Serbian/Croatian divide, with the major dialect existing on both "sides". So the main division which correlates with the alphabet divide is within this - ie any language difference correlatable with the alphabets is only a sub-dialectal issue.

That'll do!

 

[Panceltic]

Not exactly. I believe linguists have always considered - rightly in my view - Serbo-Croat to be one language (though now talked of as Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin according to politics/geography since the split/dismemberment/whatever of Yugoslavia in the 1990s). However, both Slovenian and Macedonian are distinct languages. The country also had both Hungarian and Albanian as official languages, including on banknotes and so on. (Vojvodina - an autonomous province in the north of the Serbian constituent republic - using Hungarian as well as Serbo-Croat, Kosovo, in the south ditto, using Albanian as well as Serbo-Croat.) So you'd often see something official with the same thing on it 6 times (Serbo-Croat in both Latin script and Cyrillic script, plus the other 4). It is true, however, that a smattering of Serbo-Croat might get you by pretty much anywhere, partly because the Slovenian and Macedonian languages are related to Serbo-Croat anyway, and partly because S-C was the "largest" of the languages and was widely understood.

In terms of the different versions of Serbo-Croat, there is of course the obvious one re the alphabet, which correlates - though not perfectly - with a religious divide (Orthodox/Catholic), and with Serbian or Croatian "identity". Yes, there are some vocabulary differences - but the most significant ones, such as the months, presumably relate to matters of differing religious/cultural history. But the important thing to remember, when language nationalists try to say that Serbian and Croatian were different all along, is that the main dialectal divide within Serbo-Croat actually cuts across the Serbian/Croatian divide, with the major dialect existing on both "sides". So the main division which correlates with the alphabet divide is within this - ie any language difference correlatable with the alphabets is only a sub-dialectal issue.

That'll do!

You are indeed correct - Serbo-Croatian is (linguistically) a single language. The problem is that applying ethnic labels to this language creates all sorts of problems because it is spoken by multiple ethnicities who all want to be included name! Let me offer a bit of an explanation:

Linguistically speaking, there are indeed three languages spoken in Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro: Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian (their names come from their respective words for "what"). Kajkavian and Chakavian are spoken in North and West Croatia respectively and are spoken only by Croats so there is no issue there, but Shtokavian is the language of the rest of the area and includes all ethnicities. (In Croatia, Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian are called "the three dialects of the Croatian language" whilst in reality they should be called "the three languages of the Croat people".) Shtokavian consists of many dialects and its standard form is based on the yellow one which is, interestingly, not native to either Belgrade, Sarajevo, Podgorica or indeed Zagreb (which is actually in the Kajkavian area). This standardised form of Shtokavian is what we know as Serbo-Croatian.

During the first Yugoslavia (1918-1945), the country actually had a single official language: "Serbo-Croato-Slovenian" which only existed in the mind of whoever came up with this name (Macedonian was considered a dialect of Bulgarian at the time). In the second Yugoslavia (1945-1991) there were different "levels" of linguistic autonomy. The country as a whole had three official languages: Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian. These were used on passports, banknotes, and other official stuff.

Each of the constituent republics, in turn, had a single official language: Slovenia had Slovenian, Croatia, B&H, Serbia, Montenegro had Serbo-Croatian, and Macedonia had Macedonian. The lowest level were regional autonomies which included bilingual ares like Hungarian in Vojvodina and NE Slovenia, Italian along the northern coast, Albanian in Kosovo and Montenegro. These languages were fully co-official and very visible in their little pockets but any sign of them disappeared completely once you left the area (a situation which persists to this day)

This "Serbo-Croatian" language had two "variants" even in those times. They were called Eastern and Western and corresponded to today's Serbian and Croatian, including different scripts and the most famous e/(i)je distinction. After the breakup, nationalistic tendencies went berserk and linguistic purism was rampant in Croatia and Bosnia, trying to alienate their "standard" as far as possible from Serbian.

Well, it seems that my explanation has become an essay ... Sorry!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Portuguese is another language with non-standard elements.
Most days of the week are based on the numerical order (Sunday=1), not sun/moon/planets like Spanish and most European languages.
Mon/Tue/Wed/Thur/Fri are segunda/terca/quarto/quinta/sexta.
I discovered this when I got (in the UK)! some medication with days printed, and they were not comprehensible at first, until I discovered they were in Portuguese.
Luckily when reading timetables Sat/Sun are sabado/domingo, the same as Spanish.

 

[oldman]

One of the two Timetable World Jugoslav timetables is the Slovenian edition and uses that language only. I doubt if there was any Slovene who could not understand the Serb/Croat edition, but politics is politics - we must have our own edition.

The other one uses the four Slav languages. Extract from the general conditions for passenger transport is:

izvadak iz općih uvjeta za prijevoz putnika (Cro)
izvod iz opštih uslova za prevoz putnika (Ser)

It is interesting to compare Serbian-Croatian with Czech-Slovak. Both are sub-groups, of the south and west Slav language groups respectively, but the extent to which either pair has been considered one language (outside the world of academic linguistics) has always been political.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've got the old Bradshaw 1914 continental timetable reprint, and it's fascinating, and not all that easy, to check those tables for train services in places whose official languages have changed since then.
It's particularly hard in the Austro-Hungarian empire, notably in the Hungarian half in areas that are now parts of Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Ukraine etc.
Eventually you learn a few key Hungarian prefixes/suffixes and discover that the names mean the same, or similar, in different languages.
For instance, names in Hungarian which start Nagy-, Kis-, or Uj- translate as great/big, small/little and new respectively.
Var means castle/fort, used in many town names, eg Szekesfehervar = royal white castle.
It all helps comprehension, and makes the languages less impenetrable.

 

[dutchflyer]

A little extension for Russian/russky and also Ukrainian:
they also have a Avtovoksal= busstation (say afto..) and even a rechnoy voksal= river station, for river steamers. And airports MAY be named aerovoksal too.
Ihave never heard anything else as that this word did indeed derive from the UK station Vauxhall. The suggested dutch variation is completely new to me.
And indeed in all slavic languages there are many variations for train-station, whereas other words tend to be much the same for basic items.
One more addition, tough I cannot use the Thai script here: in that country a station is satanee (which is any transport stop in general) rot fai=train (=fire car, as trains are named in many asian languages). BUSsyton: satanee rot may (rot=car/vehicle, may apparently cpomes from the british mail?!)
It is apparent that satanee also is derived from station.

 

[SHD]

In French, an airport terminal is also named “une aérogare”.

 

[Calthrop]

It's particularly hard in the Austro-Hungarian empire, notably in the Hungarian half in areas that are now parts of Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Ukraine etc.
Eventually you learn a few key Hungarian prefixes/suffixes and discover that the names mean the same, or similar, in different languages.

Something an aspect of which, can complicate life for foreign visitors to Romania even today. Applies above all in the Transylvania area, where dwells a very sizeable ethnically Hungarian, and Hungarian-speaking, minority; and where there was also until a few decades ago, a significant ethnically German ditto (most of the latter, have since left the country). Resulting in towns in Transylvania, going by three different names -- to a large extent, officially so. Thus the regional capital -- Cluj-Napoca in Romanian -- goes also by Koloszvar (Hungarian) and Klausenburg (German). Other instances: Oradea / Nagyvarad / Grosswardein; and Sighisoara / Segesvar / Schaessburg.

 

[Panceltic]

It is apparent that satanee also is derived from station.

Dictionaries suggest "satanee" derives from an Indian language, ultimately from Sanskrit. It is therefore distinctly related to "station", but not directly derived from it.

The same goes for "rot fai" - the "rot" part is from Sanskrit (meaning wheel) and therefore cognate with Latin "rota" and French "roue", and "fai" is a native Thai word for fire which is very similar to English "fire" but this is a coincidence.

"May" however, is indeed borrowed from English "mail".

 

[AlbertBeale]

You are indeed correct - Serbo-Croatian is (linguistically) a single language. The problem is that applying ethnic labels to this language creates all sorts of problems because it is spoken by multiple ethnicities who all want to be included name! Let me offer a bit of an explanation:

Linguistically speaking, there are indeed three languages spoken in Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro: Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian (their names come from their respective words for "what"). Kajkavian and Chakavian are spoken in North and West Croatia respectively and are spoken only by Croats so there is no issue there, but Shtokavian is the language of the rest of the area and includes all ethnicities. (In Croatia, Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian are called "the three dialects of the Croatian language" whilst in reality they should be called "the three languages of the Croat people".) Shtokavian consists of many dialects and its standard form is based on the yellow one which is, interestingly, not native to either Belgrade, Sarajevo, Podgorica or indeed Zagreb (which is actually in the Kajkavian area). This standardised form of Shtokavian is what we know as Serbo-Croatian.

During the first Yugoslavia (1918-1945), the country actually had a single official language: "Serbo-Croato-Slovenian" which only existed in the mind of whoever came up with this name (Macedonian was considered a dialect of Bulgarian at the time). In the second Yugoslavia (1945-1991) there were different "levels" of linguistic autonomy. The country as a whole had three official languages: Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian. These were used on passports, banknotes, and other official stuff.

Each of the constituent republics, in turn, had a single official language: Slovenia had Slovenian, Croatia, B&H, Serbia, Montenegro had Serbo-Croatian, and Macedonia had Macedonian. The lowest level were regional autonomies which included bilingual ares like Hungarian in Vojvodina and NE Slovenia, Italian along the northern coast, Albanian in Kosovo and Montenegro. These languages were fully co-official and very visible in their little pockets but any sign of them disappeared completely once you left the area (a situation which persists to this day)

This "Serbo-Croatian" language had two "variants" even in those times. They were called Eastern and Western and corresponded to today's Serbian and Croatian, including different scripts and the most famous e/(i)je distinction. After the breakup, nationalistic tendencies went berserk and linguistic purism was rampant in Croatia and Bosnia, trying to alienate their "standard" as far as possible from Serbian.

Well, it seems that my explanation has become an essay ... Sorry!

Thanks for this further explanation - I appreciated it. Some of this I already knew (though perhaps in a less technical way) - such as the existence of the dominant Shto form - but I decided I'd said enough for one posting! I remember learning about the e/ije distinction when I first went to the Balkans many years ago.

 

[181]

Serbo-Croatian is (linguistically) a single language. The problem is that applying ethnic labels to this language creates all sorts of problems because it is spoken by multiple ethnicities who all want to be included name!

My two visits to Bosnia in 2012 and 2013 both mostly involved the Bosnian-Croat federation (that's where the steam locomotives were), where the language is I think known as 'Bosanski' (maybe Croat-dominated areas prefer 'Hrvatski', but I didn't notice that). However, I did have occasion to use a cash machine in Doboj, in the Republika Srpska, and noticed that the first choice of language was 'lokalni jezik' ('local language'). My guess is that either they wanted to call it 'Srpski' but weren't allowed to, or else they were genuinely trying to offend as few people as possible.

 

[Panceltic]

My two visits to Bosnia in 2012 and 2013 both mostly involved the Bosnian-Croat federation (that's where the steam locomotives were), where the language is I think known as 'Bosanski' (maybe Croat-dominated areas prefer 'Hrvatski', but I didn't notice that). However, I did have occasion to use a cash machine in Doboj, in the Republika Srpska, and noticed that the first choice of language was 'lokalni jezik' ('local language'). My guess is that either they wanted to call it 'Srpski' but weren't allowed to, or else they were genuinely trying to offend as few people as possible.

Yeah, all three languages are official on the national level (which leads to the infamous cigarette pack situation, the same thing written three times), with only one of them being in use on the municipal level. In Croat-majority municipalities, the language is definitely called "hrvatski", but perhaps you haven't visited? Anyway, in everyday communication people just say "naš jezik" (our language), "local" is also a good option I guess!

 

[181]

Yeah, all three languages are official on the national level (which leads to the infamous cigarette pack situation, the same thing written three times), with only one of them being in use on the municipal level. In Croat-majority municipalities, the language is definitely called "hrvatski", but perhaps you haven't visited? Anyway, in everyday communication people just say "naš jezik" (our language), "local" is also a good option I guess!

I noticed a situation similar to the cigarette pack with the plaque by the bridge at Mostar saying that it was a World Heritage site, although I think there was a minor difference between the two Latin-script versions. I believe that parts of Mostar are predominantly Croat, but I was only there for 24 hours and may not have had occasion to use a cash machine (that being the main situation in which I saw what the language was known as).

 

[vlad]

Yeah, all three languages are official on the national level (which leads to the infamous cigarette pack situation, the same thing written three times)....

True - but given the first warning is written in a different alphabet there is at least good reason to do so.

I learnt Croatian (as we were told to call it) from a woman from Zagreb. She grew up in what was then Yugoslavia and told us that in all Croatian schools, teaching was wholly in the Latin alphabet for the first few years, after which they'd be introduced to the Cyrillic alphabet and have to submit regular essays in the other alphabet; the same was true for Serbian schools but the other way round. Apparently once Croatia got independence it stopped doing that so there's every likelihood that there are plenty of people who don't actually understand the Latin or Cyrillic alphabet as they're not exposed to it at all.

 

[Panceltic]

True - but given the first warning is written in a different alphabet there is at least good reason to do so.

I learnt Croatian (as we were told to call it) from a woman from Zagreb. She grew up in what was then Yugoslavia and told us that in all Croatian schools, teaching was wholly in the Latin alphabet for the first few years, after which they'd be introduced to the Cyrillic alphabet and have to submit regular essays in the other alphabet; the same was true for Serbian schools but the other way round. Apparently once Croatia got independence it stopped doing that so there's every likelihood that there are plenty of people who don't actually understand the Latin or Cyrillic alphabet as they're not exposed to it at all.

Absolutely, Cyrillic was banished completely from Croatia (and Slovenia, but that's beside the point). However you'll struggle to find a person who is unfamiliar with Latin anywhere in the Balkans really.

 

[60019]

Gorsaf Ganol ... Gorsaf is feminine so the C in Canol mutates to G, and the G drops out completely after the definine article Yr. Using canol looks weird, canolog is better in this context, ie: the "main" station versus the station in the middle. Yr Orsaf Ganolog.

Steision .... <shudder>

Maybe the word Gorsaf wasn't in use in Snowdonia, especially since the railway companies in the region were all english-backed and there hadn't been local tramways or plateways beforehand, and probably no regular stagecoaches except the mail along the coast, so whatever Welsh word was used for stopping places wouldn't necessarily be the same as in the south.


Alternatively, maybe it was the effect of the LNWR's approach to Welsh. They were responsible for Llanfair PG, after all.

Gerstner, who proposed building the railway in 1836, also proposed a 'new Tivoli, a splendid voksal' at Pavlovsk to encourage traffic. There is still the question of when the name of one station became the generic name.

That's the story I'd come across in a set of memoirs from a 19th century diplomat (though not there until later), because the line only went to the Summer Palace until they added the pleasure gardens, which were referred to as the Voksol, and the station at St Petersburg was, for most of the year, only used to get to the gardens and was the only sensible way to get there, so people telling coachmen to take them to the Vokzal meant the station in St Petersburg.

 

[Tester]

As the thread is wandering a little, my opportunity to mention a fun quirk of month names in Thai. The last syllable of each one tells you how many days the month has.

No 'Thirty days hath September' needed!

 

[SHD]

The word "tunnel" is an interesting example of back-and-forth linguistic influence between French and English, also called reborrowing. Tunnel - which obviously means "tunnel" - appeared in French in the late 18th century, as a loanword from English. But tunnel entered the English language as a middle French word (tonnelle, meaning "barrel").

French borrowed many words from English in the 18th-19th centuries, obviously in the technical fields, influenced by the Industrial revolution and the fast development in Britain, but also in political or social vocabulary.

Other famous reborrowing examples are budget, from the middle French bougette and sport, from old French desport.

 

[Calthrop]

French borrowed many words from English in the 18th-19th centuries, obviously in the technical fields, influenced by the Industrial revolution and the fast development in Britain, but also in political or social vocabulary.

This has me imagining "l' Academie Francaise" grievously kicking and screaming at things going on thus -- but one wonders: did they do so; but the inventors / industrialists / social and political "movers and shakers" just gave two fingers to them, and went on merrily borrowing? Or did the Academie and its strictures not exist two-hundred-and-a-bit years ago, and only came along later?

 

[Giugiaro]

In European Portuguese there's both the use of Station and Gare in the railway lexicon, as Estação and Gare.

Estação is used to denominate the place where trains stop, and is derived from the latin stiatio + onis as either resting or address.
Estação, as a word, is also used for several other things, including abstract concepts as the Season (one of the four periods of the year).

Gare is defined in the Porto Editora Portuguese Dictionary as being the part of a railway station where the track is covered from the elements.

Also, take into consideration one detail I talked with @Mag_seven and @yorkie that in Portugal (and Spain, I think...) there's also the concept of an Apeadeiro, which is a simple passenger platform along the mainline, with no junctions attached to it. We usually translate this concept into English as either a Halt or simply Stop.

 

[rf_ioliver]

This has me imagining "l' Academie Francaise" grievously kicking and screaming at things going on thus -- but one wonders: did they do so; but the inventors / industrialists / social and political "movers and shakers" just gave two fingers to them, and went on merrily borrowing? Or did the Academie and its strictures not exist two-hundred-and-a-bit years ago, and only came along later?

The screaming stopped when they realised they were words were originally Normal French .... Maybe the bits in English borrowed from the Germanic languages were the problelm