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Driver Instructors: Does your employer provide you with an additional Driver Instructor's licence?

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Economist

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One career move which I've been encouraged to consider in the past few months is going for a Driver Instructor role. At my TOC, any incidents that occur whilst a Trainee is driving end up on the Instructor's one and only Train Driver Licence, these incidents are not recorded seperately. However, I've heard that at other TOCs/FOCs, Instructors are given a seperate Instructor's licence so that any incidents which occur whilst a Trainee is driving do not end up affected their Safety of the Line Record in the same way. Can you please share which approach you're most familiar with? Perhaps at some employers it works completely differently?
 
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ChrisTheRef

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The actual driving licence doesn’t change at all.
Some TOCs may treat a DI who has had one incident instructing and one incident driving in a different way than they’d treat someone who’d both of the same incidents whilst driving (there’d be different factors in play and different NTS failures in all likelihood).
The short answer is no. An incident a DI has is reportable in exactly the same way whether they’re driving or instructing.
 

newtownmgr

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WMT don’t do a different licence. You just get a different cab pass authorising you to instruct/assess once you’ve done the relevant courses.
 

choochoochoo

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I think this puts a lot of good potential DIs off the role.

Especially as a lot of online job applications would automatically filter out candidates with poor driving records without the opportunity to explain it was a training incident. It could restrict your future job opportunities.
 

driver9000

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No I don't have an extra licence. In addition to my licence I hold a Green Cab Pass endorsed "Authorised to Instruct" and I hold full responsibility for any incident that occurs while a trainee is driving because until they qualify they don't hold a licence. I've never heard of a separate Instructor licence to take the hit from any incident.
 

Red Devil

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Any incidents by a trainee under your instruction goes on your record.
Hence I'm on the ball with my trainees from the day they start to the day they leave me.
 

MichaelAMW

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Do TOCs make that risk worth your while, or at least put arrangements in place that appreciate the limits of what you can reasonably do in that instructing role?
 

theironroad

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I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving TOC.
 

jimfrst

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At c2c any incidents with a trainee go on your own license, you get a green cab pass to assess and instruct so it’s a risk instructing and you have to be on the ball all the time.
 

HeelBurton

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I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving TOC.
Correct. I believe unless the system has changed, there’s a B10 and a B12...
 

Economist

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Thank you all for the advice on this, the people who I'd heard mention a "seperate licence" presumably made a slight misinterpretation of the SWR system where any incidents affecting an instructor or stored on a different record. It all goes to show how the DI role seems to be underrated by the TOCs given the extra responsibility involved.
 

Flange Squeal

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This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
 

HeelBurton

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This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
I wouldn’t let it put you off. I left one TOC to another with a few things under my belt but that was trainee related and they understood. (Overshoot, stop short, TPWS approaching a speed restriction, was very marginal, grids set at 55 we was doing 55.3, and questionable wrong route)

From experience, it’s worse if it’s a driver route learning who is driving and then there’s an error made; rather than a trainee under instruction.
 

theironroad

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This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
I wouldn’t let it put you off. I left one TOC to another with a few things under my belt but that was trainee related and they understood. (Overshoot, stop short, TPWS approaching a speed restriction, was very marginal, grids set at 55 we was doing 55.3, and questionable wrong route)

From experience, it’s worse if it’s a driver route learning who is driving and then there’s an error made; rather than a trainee under instruction.

This is the reason I believe the route learning system needs reforming. It's all done on the basis of vague trust.

I do know some drivers won't let people drive unless they are from their depot or they know them somehow.

The idea that a route leaner can make a mistake and it sits on the booked driver's record is wrong, especially when there is zero training or otherwise for them.

It might have been a suitable system decades ago when some incidents weren't treated so harshly, but in this day and age when sneezing on approach to a red or any other incidents will be formally investigated and recorded then it's not suitable and need professional training.

There could be a parallel system to DIs, where drivers apply for and are trained as route trainers to teach/finesse route learning.
 

Stigy

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I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving
This is the reason I believe the route learning system needs reforming. It's all done on the basis of vague trust.

I do know some drivers won't let people drive unless they are from their depot or they know them somehow.

The idea that a route leaner can make a mistake and it sits on the booked driver's record is wrong, especially when there is zero training or otherwise for them.

It might have been a suitable system decades ago when some incidents weren't treated so harshly, but in this day and age when sneezing on approach to a red or any other incidents will be formally investigated and recorded then it's not suitable and need professional training.

There could be a parallel system to DIs, where drivers apply for and are trained as route trainers to teach/finesse route learning.
I assumed if route learning, any incident would go on the learner’s licence, as they will presumably be a qualified driver?
 

theironroad

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I assumed if route learning, any incident would go on the learner’s licence, as they will presumably be a qualified driver?

They don't sign the route so the booked driver is fully responsible afaik.

I concede it's not cut and dry and have known the waters getting muddied during investigations.
 

Stigy

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They don't sign the route so the booked driver is fully responsible afaik.

I concede it's not cut and dry and have known the waters getting muddied during investigations.
Interesting. I can see the point to an extent, as they’re being route conducted I assume, therefore any route based incident would be questionable?
 

387star

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Thank you all for the advice on this, the people who I'd heard mention a "seperate licence" presumably made a slight misinterpretation of the SWR system where any incidents affecting an instructor or stored on a different record. It all goes to show how the DI role seems to be underrated by the TOCs given the extra responsibility involved.
It's what puts me off the role

I think you work for an intensive DOO TOC? The West Wickham incident left a sour taste
 

20atthemagnet

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Whats the average boost for being a mentor? 5%? 10?

That will vary massively on TOC. 2-3 hours per day extra whilst instructing is quite common amongst unsalaried minders/mentors. Some TOCs DI's are a completely different grade with their own salary, roster, however their duties can be a lot wider like taking Safety days and doing OTMR downloads.
 

4F89

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That will vary massively on TOC. 2-3 hours per day extra whilst instructing is quite common amongst unsalaried minders/mentors. Some TOCs DI's are a completely different grade with their own salary, roster, however their duties can be a lot wider like taking Safety days and doing OTMR downloads.
Doesn't seem worth the aggro
 

Stigy

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Doesn't seem worth the aggro
It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
 

4F89

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It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
I've heard of one who was absolutely shocking. But for a few G to have that risk... I'd rather do the rest days
 

dctraindriver

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It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
Wait till you’ve been around on this grade for a while. You’ll soon hear some horror stories. And don’t forget it’s not just trainees that can be agro. There are quite a few qualified drivers more of the male variety who are an utter ball ache on assessments because they cannot accept constructive advice from a DI whose doing an assessment in relation to keeping safe and incident free. Bad habits form and some don’t even recognise it. It can be a challenging role. Rewarding but sometimes just an utter pain.
 

Stigy

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Wait till you’ve been around on this grade for a while. You’ll soon hear some horror stories. And don’t forget it’s not just trainees that can be agro. There are quite a few qualified drivers more of the male variety who are an utter ball ache on assessments because they cannot accept constructive advice from a DI whose doing an assessment in relation to keeping safe and incident free. Bad habits form and some don’t even recognise it. It can be a challenging role. Rewarding but sometimes just an utter pain.

Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
 

4F89

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Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
Yeah, one of my instructors was somewhat condescending at the tail end of my hours. Trying to teach me things that I'd been doing for 230 hours, triple explaining what will be coming up. A good DI for just starting driving, but poor form for nearly done. Luckily I didnt have him for long.
 

Efini92

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Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
I can think of a depot in the north west where 70% of the DI’s shouldn’t be instructing.
 

Red Devil

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Whenever I have a trainee I try to create a conducive atmosphere to work in.
Everyone's different so this is different. What I want is people to come to work in a relaxed environment. Bullying, sarcasm and belittling does not create that. It's self defeating and achieves nothing.
You're spending more time with your trainee than your partner on a daily basis so why would you want to create a toxic environment?
 

FR510

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One career move which I've been encouraged to consider in the past few months is going for a Driver Instructor role. At my TOC, any incidents that occur whilst a Trainee is driving end up on the Instructor's one and only Train Driver Licence, these incidents are not recorded seperately. However, I've heard that at other TOCs/FOCs, Instructors are given a seperate Instructor's licence so that any incidents which occur whilst a Trainee is driving do not end up affected their Safety of the Line Record in the same way. Can you please share which approach you're most familiar with? Perhaps at some employers it works completely differently?
No separate licence at SE.
 
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