Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Watershed]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but unless this comes into place after July this is basically stuffing anyone younger and is effectively age discrimination by requiring proof of vaccination that those under-50s might not at all be able to provide through no fault of their own. This was when a few travel companies were starting to consider insisting upon it - not sure how that would have seen by their younger staff though!

Not to mention these groups (and their families) will be the ones spending a considerable amount, it seems like a ridiculous proposition until it has been offered (note 'offered' - if people refuse it then sure refuse them travel, but exceptions need to be taken into account) to everyone

I think it unlikely that international travel will be sufficiently free of Covid related costs and impositions before July that it makes any difference, in truth.

 

[Yew]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but unless this comes into place after July this is basically stuffing anyone younger and is effectively age discrimination by requiring proof of vaccination that those under-50s might not at all be able to provide through no fault of their own. This was when a few travel companies were starting to consider insisting upon it - not sure how that would have seen by their younger staff though!

Not to mention these groups (and their families) will be the ones spending a considerable amount, it seems like a ridiculous proposition until it has been offered (note 'offered' - if people refuse it then sure refuse them travel, but exceptions need to be taken into account) to everyone

Age discrimination doesn't matter unless it's against the elderly.

 

[Huntergreed]

I see that the narrative seems to be changing, and Boris is suggesting that it may be a good idea for domestic vaccine passports to be used here.

Goodbye human rights and medical confidentiality.

 

[Gadget88]

I see that the narrative seems to be changing, and Boris is suggesting that it may be a good idea for domestic vaccine passports to be used here.

Goodbye human rights and medical confidentiality.

Yes it seems it’s coming. These vaccines will be mandated if you can’t go to a supermarket or work. They another version of Blair’s ID cards. We will have a two tier society with people banned from living life.

 

[MikeWM]

I see that the narrative seems to be changing, and Boris is suggesting that it may be a good idea for domestic vaccine passports to be used here.

Goodbye human rights and medical confidentiality.

What a surprise. Not. There are a lot of evil people that have wanted this sort of thing for quite some time. They are trying to seize the opportunity.

I will resist this with every bone in my body - as I said last week, there are few hills worth dying on, but this is most certainly one of them. Because if they succeed, our society is over.

 

[Gadget88]

What a surprise. Not. There are a lot of evil people that have wanted this sort of thing for quite some time. They are trying to seize the opportunity.

I will resist this with every bone in my body - as I said last week, there are few hills worth dying on, but this is most certainly one of them. Because if they succeed, our society is over.

How would society be over? I agree but just wondering if you would elaborate on it. Seems people will accept it for foreign travel however?

 

[MikeWM]

How would society be over? I agree but just wondering if you would elaborate on it. Seems people will accept it for foreign travel however?

Well, things would continue. People continue to exist in China, for example, and maybe some are even happy with the level of control the state exerts over their lives. But it would be a society that I wouldn't want to live in.

 

[island]

So despite Boris saying no to covid passports Daily Mail says they will review it in May and could bring then in. Seems we are following Israel and these discriminatory passports are coming?

They are inevitable for international travel, and function creep will doubtless happen thereafter.

 

[Gadget88]

Tomorrow’s paper The Times suggests it will recommend a negative test on the passport for big events and work. I work in retail will I be expected to get a weekly test? At the moment I heard bus drivers need a test to go to work due to an outbreak? I don’t like these swabbing tests and the only saliva based ones I can see still need lab analysed. Will there be an on the spot saliva test result anywhere?

They are inevitable for international travel, and function creep will doubtless happen thereafter.

For how long though? Forever?

 

[Watershed]

For how long though? Forever?

How long is a piece of string? Unless less infectious or less deadly strains become endemic (the latter is the more likely outcome), it will probably be seen as the equivalent of the yellow fever vaccine.

You can probably look at fundamental border restrictions (i.e. who can travel from where to where) for some idea of things might run.

 

[Gadget88]

How long is a piece of string? Unless less infectious or less deadly strains become endemic (the latter is the more likely outcome), it will probably be seen as the equivalent of the yellow fever vaccine.

You can probably look at fundamental border restrictions (i.e. who can travel from where to where) for some idea of things might run.

As has been said the yellow fever isn’t really tourist places. If everywhere demands them it makes the vaccine mandated. I would imagine some places allow a negative covid result instead given some can’t take the vaccine.

 

[MikeWM]

They are inevitable for international travel, and function creep will doubtless happen thereafter.

And that same function creep will swiftly result in their use being extended beyond one specific vaccine for one specific disease, until we've sleepwalked into a Chinese-style social credit society, where the 'good citizens' get to enjoy the freedoms that we all previously did, and those who dissent or are 'undesireable' in some other way will be blocked from work, travel, etc.

I may be wrong, and hope I am, but I've felt this was the clear direction of travel for some months now (as can be seen by some of my posts since last Autumn) and nothing so far has done anything but persuaded me that this is what people want to happen.

 

[kristiang85]

This is the exact wording on domestic "certification" :

131: The Government will review whether COVID-status certification could play a role in reopening our economy, reducing restrictions on social contact and improving safety. This will include assessing to what extent certification would be effective in reducing risk, and the potential uses to enable access to settings or a relaxation of COVID-Secure mitigations. The Government will also consider the ethical, equalities, privacy, legal and operational aspects of this approach and what limits, if any, should be placed on organisations using certification. It will draw on external advice to develop recommendations that take into account any social and economic impacts, and implications for disproportionately impacted groups and individuals’ privacy and security. The Government will set out its conclusions in advance of Step 4 in order to inform the safe reopening of society and the economy.

 

[Bantamzen]

There are major problems in both mandatory vaccination & testing regimes. Vaccinations will not be available for everyone, meaning some people will be medically excluded from basic social functionality. And mandatory testing, well work it out. Since the start of the pandemic we have conducted around 83 million tests. To have say a weekly test for the entire adult population (est 50 million) would need 2,600,000,000 annual tests. Or in other words we currently do around 3% of what would be required to make it work.

Yeah, good luck with that....

 

[RT4038]

As has been said the yellow fever isn’t really tourist places. If everywhere demands them it makes the vaccine mandated. I would imagine some places allow a negative covid result instead given some can’t take the vaccine.

Yellow fever is only an example of a vaccination requirement. It is true that it is mainly less tourist places, but some have a fairly developed tourist industry. However, whether they are tourist places is not really the point - vaccination is seen as a Public Health issue. A Covid vaccination requirement may reduce the number of tourists in 2021, but by the 2022 season the vaccine will be widely available.

As a Public Health issue, the decision to be vaccinated is one for the individual, but no vaccine, no entry. The numbers of people that can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will be fairly small, and countries may consider that the risk is not worth taking to make any exceptions. (Particularly because the 'won'ts' will try to find medical reasons to become 'can'ts', and who is going to judge the medical reasons?). Entry into a foreign country is a privilege and not a right. So yes, vaccination could be de facto 'mandated' for international travel.

Once the requirement is established, it can be difficult to remove it - I guess that this comes when the countries involved (i.e. where you are coming from, and going to) stop vaccinating their own population as a matter of course, because the number of cases has reduced to an acceptable level, whatever that may be.

 

[takno]

Yellow fever is only an example of a vaccination requirement. It is true that it is mainly less tourist places, but some have a fairly developed tourist industry. However, whether they are tourist places is not really the point - vaccination is seen as a Public Health issue. A Covid vaccination requirement may reduce the number of tourists in 2021, but by the 2022 season the vaccine will be widely available.

As a Public Health issue, the decision to be vaccinated is one for the individual, but no vaccine, no entry. The numbers of people that can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will be fairly small, and countries may consider that the risk is not worth taking to make any exceptions. (Particularly because the 'won'ts' will try to find medical reasons to become 'can'ts', and who is going to judge the medical reasons?). Entry into a foreign country is a privilege and not a right. So yes, vaccination could be de facto 'mandated' for international travel.

Once the requirement is established, it can be difficult to remove it - I guess that this comes when the countries involved (i.e. where you are coming from, and going to) stop vaccinating their own population as a matter of course, because the number of cases has reduced to an acceptable level, whatever that may be.

Pretty doubtful by summer 2022 that Covid will look like a significant public health issue because the vast majority of heavily-susceptible people will have been vaccinated and will have stopped getting sick. Beyond that the vaccine doesn't prevent spread well enough to make much difference anyway. Basically with all this health passport stuff, by the time you can reasonably get it in place, it won't be necessary and won't look proportionate

 

[Bantamzen]

Well holiday companies and airline companies are already reporting a massive surge in bookings & queries, so if vaccine mandation is to become a thing to travel those countries considering might want to get a wiggle on. Or possibly some might just quietly shelve the idea altogether as they see the potential revenue that is about to flow again.

 

[MikeWM]

This is the exact wording on domestic "certification" :

I suppose that - if we're lucky - this may be the Government going down the well-worn 'announce an enquiry so that we don't have to answer questions about it for a few months, by which point hopefully everyone will have forgotten about it' route. Fingers crossed :-/

 

[LAX54]

Well holiday companies and airline companies are already reporting a massive surge in bookings & queries, so if vaccine mandation is to become a thing to travel those countries considering might want to get a wiggle on. Or possibly some might just quietly shelve the idea altogether as they see the potential revenue that is about to flow again.

TUI bookings up 100% Easy Jet I think was 319%, and there was another Company mentioned that I cannot remember the name was stating 600% !
Spoke to Virgin Hols this morning, she also said the phone has not stopped !
If it all goes awry on June 21st...there will be chaos !

 

[ainsworth74]

Well holiday companies and airline companies are already reporting a massive surge in bookings & queries, so if vaccine mandation is to become a thing to travel those countries considering might want to get a wiggle on. Or possibly some might just quietly shelve the idea altogether as they see the potential revenue that is about to flow again.

TUI bookings up 100% Easy Jet I think was 319%, and there was another Company mentioned that I cannot remember the name was stating 600% !
Spoke to Virgin Hols this morning, she also said the phone has not stopped !
If it all goes awry on June 21st...there will be chaos !

That's lovely and all but I on't see however why a foreign country would particularly care if they ruin a bunch of UK holidaymakers plans by either not opening up or requiring proof of vaccination (or a negative test). As I've said previously I can well imagine a scenario in which the Schengen area, of 420m people and potential 'internal' tourists, remains closed to leisure travellers from outside unless they can supply proof of vaccination. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen but I think it would be brave to assume that it won't happen and that just because a bunch of Brits have booked holidays overseas that somehow that will be a deterministic factor in the decision being made.

Personally I think it's fairly reckless to book an overseas holiday on the basis of UK plan but perhaps that's just me...

 

[Yew]

I think it's reckless to undertake measures that all worldwide pandemic plans specifically advised against on the basis that there's no evidence that they work, but that'd just me.

 

[nlogax]

Personally I think it's fairly reckless to book an overseas holiday on the basis of UK plan but perhaps that's just me...

Not just you. It astounds me that people aren't remembering that the ability to restart traveling overseas will be limited by the destination country, not by UK rules. Shouldn't be beyond the wit of holidaymakers to understand this but apparently it is.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it's reckless to undertake measures that all worldwide pandemic plans specifically advised against on the basis that there's no evidence that they work, but that'd just me.

Perhaps it is but saying that, however, doesn't change anything about the behaviour of the countries people wish to travel to and it won't change the potential for tears if it all goes wrong and the countries people are hoping to travel to do have closed borders, or do expect proof of vaccination or a negative test on arrival. The evidence now is that countries are ignoring that pre-pandemic plan and doing their own thing. In light of the reality of the situation, no matter how much we may stomp our feet about pre-pandemic plans being ignored, I maintain it's reckless to be booking overseas holidays on the basis of what the UK is doing until it's clear what the country you're planning on travelling to is planning on doing (which I don't think is clear yet for many if any?).

It's possible that it will good news and when we get to June the whole EU and many other countries will have thrown open their doors and be welcoming tourists for the UK and around the world with open arms, indeed, I hope it is so as I would quite like to go overseas this year. But it is equally possible, and I think prudent to consider whilst sat here in February, that that won't happen. That countries will either have closed borders to tourists from outside Schengen or that they will have extra requirements on visitors.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's lovely and all but I on't see however why a foreign country would particularly care if they ruin a bunch of UK holidaymakers plans by either not opening up or requiring proof of vaccination (or a negative test). As I've said previously I can well imagine a scenario in which the Schengen area, of 420m people and potential 'internal' tourists, remains closed to leisure travellers from outside unless they can supply proof of vaccination. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen but I think it would be brave to assume that it won't happen and that just because a bunch of Brits have booked holidays overseas that somehow that will be a deterministic factor in the decision being made.

Personally I think it's fairly reckless to book an overseas holiday on the basis of UK plan but perhaps that's just me...

In a word, Euros, Euros, Euros.... (Or more accurately Pounds converted to Euros)....

 

[takno]

Perhaps it is but saying that, however, doesn't change anything about the behaviour of the countries people wish to travel to and it won't change the potential for tears if it all goes wrong and the countries people are hoping to travel to do have closed borders, or do expect proof of vaccination or a negative test on arrival. The evidence now is that countries are ignoring that pre-pandemic plan and doing their own thing. In light of the reality of the situation, no matter how much we may stomp our feet about pre-pandemic plans being ignored, I maintain it's reckless to be booking overseas holidays on the basis of what the UK is doing until it's clear what the country you're planning on travelling to is planning on doing (which I don't think is clear yet for many if any?).

It's possible that it will good news and when we get to June the whole EU and many other countries will have thrown open their doors and be welcoming tourists for the UK and around the world with open arms, indeed, I hope it is so as I would quite like to go overseas this year. But it is equally possible, and I think prudent to consider whilst sat here in February, that that won't happen. That countries will either have closed borders to tourists from outside Schengen or that they will have extra requirements on visitors.

I tend to agree, but there's a couple of things playing against that. The first is that a lot of people have been allowed to develop an assumption that if anything goes wrong then the government or travel industry will bail them out. The second, and probably most important is that quite a lot of people have the money saved up anyway and would rather risk losing it than risk missing out on the opportunity to have a holiday.

I know I spent the whole of last summer being "prudent" and waiting a while, and as a result I'm just left sitting here feeling like an under-holidayed chump. If somebody were to suggest a summer trip now then I'd probably book it like a shot before it sells out, and just hope everything worked out fine.

 

[Horizon22]

Tomorrow’s paper The Times suggests it will recommend a negative test on the passport for big events and work. I work in retail will I be expected to get a weekly test? At the moment I heard bus drivers need a test to go to work due to an outbreak? I don’t like these swabbing tests and the only saliva based ones I can see still need lab analysed. Will there be an on the spot saliva test result anywhere?


For how long though? Forever?

Testing is completely different to proof of vaccine though. There is free covid testing 18 hours a day at my work with results in an hour. I'm fine with proof of a negative test to travel as its essentially on demand vs. a vaccine (although the test is clearly less relevant over time) and anyone can get one for free.

 

[Domh245]

Testing is completely different to proof of vaccine though. There is free covid testing 18 hours a day at my work with results in an hour. I'm fine with proof of a negative test to travel as its essentially on demand vs. a vaccine (although the test is clearly less relevant over time) and anyone can get one for free.

Somebody has to pay for the test though (local/central govt if not your work), and the ability to scale testing up to allow whole-population testing cannot be taken for certain. At our peak we managed around 800,000 virus tests a day - to do the whole population weekly would require a hundredfold increase in capacity

 

[LAX54]

Perhaps it is but saying that, however, doesn't change anything about the behaviour of the countries people wish to travel to and it won't change the potential for tears if it all goes wrong and the countries people are hoping to travel to do have closed borders, or do expect proof of vaccination or a negative test on arrival. The evidence now is that countries are ignoring that pre-pandemic plan and doing their own thing. In light of the reality of the situation, no matter how much we may stomp our feet about pre-pandemic plans being ignored, I maintain it's reckless to be booking overseas holidays on the basis of what the UK is doing until it's clear what the country you're planning on travelling to is planning on doing (which I don't think is clear yet for many if any?).

It's possible that it will good news and when we get to June the whole EU and many other countries will have thrown open their doors and be welcoming tourists for the UK and around the world with open arms, indeed, I hope it is so as I would quite like to go overseas this year. But it is equally possible, and I think prudent to consider whilst sat here in February, that that won't happen. That countries will either have closed borders to tourists from outside Schengen or that they will have extra requirements on visitors.

People booking 'now' will still have the Covid re-booking guarantee, so the risk, is minimal, plus of course, leave it until June/July/August the prices will have sky-rocketed !
Will it get to the point where Countries just cannot afford to stay closed any longer ?
You can get a test posted to you, with results back to you in 24 hours, not sure of the cost per person tho

 

[takno]

Somebody has to pay for the test though (local/central govt if not your work), and the ability to scale testing up to allow whole-population testing cannot be taken for certain. At our peak we managed around 800,000 virus tests a day - to do the whole population weekly would require a hundredfold increase in capacity

If it's a case of getting a lateral flow test before you go on holiday or to a large event like a festival then it's pretty affordable since it's a small proportion of the current cost of the ticket. If you need it to go to the pub or to the shops then it's completely unworkable. In both cases it's probably pointless, but I'm a lot more open to pointless safety theatre if doesn't get in the way too muh

 

[Typhoon]

Boris Johnson has promised a review into the use of vaccine passports, but said there were "deep and complex issues" to consider.

He said the idea of Covid status certificates - having to show something to go to a pub or the theatre - was a "novelty" for the UK.

Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove will lead the vaccine passport review.

Note how our PM is suitably vague over whether he wants them or not, and has passed the buck to Gove. Typical Boris ploy so he can't be blamed when it goes wrong. Now all they have to do is find a suitable Tory donor to head up the Vaccine Passport Agency.

(from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56169616)