Compulsory Reservations- Poll

[Hadders]

I think this is a great idea. As a business traveller, before Coronavirus, I'd choose to drive if for whatever reason I couldn't get a seat reservation regardless of what type of ticket I was using. I would happily pay more for my ticket if it meant a guaranteed seat, and a more pleasant experience on board the train, such as no standing, pushing past people in corridors, and crush loaded services. I think that's the case for a lot of my friends and colleagues too.

I would for most journeys also pay between £3-5 for a seat reservation in addition to the ticket cost if it meant I could select my own seat, and see precise loadings on the train, i.e. what seats have been taken already.

The key is just making sure it's all easily done within 1-2 mins on my smartphone or one of the self service ticket machines, but 90% of the time, I pre-book a ticket anyway that comes with a compulsory / free reservation anyway.

I suspect that the days of very crowded long distance trains are behind us, as Covid will have a long lasting impact on decision making and customer service. Even when / if Covid is finally solved, passengers will still remember, and I predict will expect a cleaner, less crowded and more organised journey as standard.

You can already do all of this.

I'd like to know what happens in this situation:

I'm making a journey from Huntingdon to Edinburgh (GTR to Peterborough then LNER to Edinburgh). It's Maunday Thursday and services are very busy, all the trains were fully booked weeks ago but I'm ok as I purchased my tickets when they first went on sale.

The GTR train from Huntingdon to Peterborough is 10 minutes late. No mass disruption, just one of those things that happens sometimes but it causes me to miss the LNER train. I go onto my smartphone to reserve a seat on the next train but they're all fully booked until for the rest of the day and the following day. Do I:

- Abandon my plans and go home
- Hire a car at Peterborough station
- Jump on the next train, chances are there's an empty seat somewhere for at least part of the way (my app won't know if someone hasn't turned up as unlike an airline you don't have to check in)
- Get GTR to arrange a taxi at huge expense (due to their train being late)

 

[Clip]

You can already do all of this.

I'd like to know what happens in this situation:

I'm making a journey from Huntingdon to Edinburgh (GTR to Peterborough then LNER to Edinburgh). It's Maunday Thursday and services are very busy, all the trains were fully booked weeks ago but I'm ok as I purchased my tickets when they first went on sale.

The GTR train from Huntingdon to Peterborough is 10 minutes late. No mass disruption, just one of those things that happens sometimes but it causes me to miss the LNER train. I go onto my smartphone to reserve a seat on the next train but they're all fully booked until for the rest of the day and the following day. Do I:

- Abandon my plans and go home
- Hire a car at Peterborough station
- Jump on the next train, chances are there's an empty seat somewhere for at least part of the way (my app won't know if someone hasn't turned up as unlike an airline you don't have to check in)
- Get GTR to arrange a taxi at huge expense (due to their train being late)

Wouldnt this be better off directed to LNER who are proposing this rather than someone on a forum who may or may not be able to answer your question?

 

[southern442]

Wouldnt this be better off directed to LNER who are proposing this rather than someone on a forum who may or may not be able to answer your question?

In the real world, maybe, but this is a hypothetical situation. If you are going to make a case for something then you have to be able to provide an explanation for the snags. LNER have to do this as well, but the whole point of this thread is discussing potential scenarios to see if compulsory reservations hold up. If we can just make arguments without ever having to back them up then we are back into 'why not use 442's?' territory again.

 

[Hadders]

Wouldnt this be better off directed to LNER who are proposing this rather than someone on a forum who may or may not be able to answer your question?

LNER haven’t announced anything yet but this is a railway discussion forum and the question I posed is very relevant to the thread.

Opinion on the subject of compulsory seat reservations is certainly divided. Personally, I am strongly against them but I do respect the fact that others hold a different opinion. I am merely pointing out an unintended consequence of compulsory reservations.

 

[gka472l]

You can already do all of this.

I'd like to know what happens in this situation:

I'm making a journey from Huntingdon to Edinburgh (GTR to Peterborough then LNER to Edinburgh). It's Maunday Thursday and services are very busy, all the trains were fully booked weeks ago but I'm ok as I purchased my tickets when they first went on sale.

The GTR train from Huntingdon to Peterborough is 10 minutes late. No mass disruption, just one of those things that happens sometimes but it causes me to miss the LNER train. I go onto my smartphone to reserve a seat on the next train but they're all fully booked until for the rest of the day and the following day. Do I:

- Abandon my plans and go home
- Hire a car at Peterborough station
- Jump on the next train, chances are there's an empty seat somewhere for at least part of the way (my app won't know if someone hasn't turned up as unlike an airline you don't have to check in)
- Get GTR to arrange a taxi at huge expense (due to their train being late)

I'd have thought that this would be an occasion where some discretion would be used where you could board the next service (but a high chance of standing for much of the journey if it's that busy), much like what happens with advance tickets now, if the connection is delayed. I'd certainly like to think that would happen anyway. It's all speculation at the moment, as we've only seen any mention of it in a magazine, albeit from a person who probably has an idea of the plans. My personal opinion is the results of this poll may very well be the other way round were it not on what is very much a rail enthusiast leaning forum, and another way of asking that same question is 'Do you think you should get a guaranteed seat with a train ticket'.....as you say, opinion is very divided on this subject.

 

[Hadders]

But if you’re going to allow someone to board without a reservation then it defeats the object of compulsory reservations.

I simply don’t understand how you will prevent passengers without reservations boarding at places like Stevenage, Peterborough, Retford etc. There simply aren’t the staff available to check.

 

[gka472l]

But if you’re going to allow someone to board without a reservation then it defeats the object of compulsory reservations.

I simply don’t understand how you will prevent passengers without reservations boarding at places like Stevenage, Peterborough, Retford etc. There simply aren’t the staff available to check.

Neither do I, but that's for the TOC to sort out. I would also say disruption is the one time that compulsory reservations should be relaxed, but not just because more people want to travel than there is space (as in 'non disruption' times). As I say, just my personal opinions, and I'm sure my views are in the minority here.....

 

[Hadders]

How seriously is a TOC going to take a 10 minute delay to a connecting service? It’s not exactly major disruption.

 

[gka472l]

How seriously is a TOC going to take a 10 minute delay to a connecting service? It’s not exactly major disruption.

It's not the passengers fault it's delayed is it, exactly the same if someone with an advance ticket would be allowed on the next service is their connection was delayed.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I simply don’t understand how you will prevent passengers without reservations boarding at places like Stevenage, Peterborough, Retford etc. There simply aren’t the staff available to check.

In practice most people behave themselves, and the odd few not doing doesn't cause a major problem. This is similar to pick up/set down only services at MKC - if the train wasn't checked on boarding at Euston (rare these days) you will tend to see one or two canny commuters getting off a northbound at MKC, but it's only one or two so it doesn't cause a great issue.

There are other options, I suppose:

1. Change Penalty Fares legislation so a Penalty Fare of £20 applies to boarding a reservation-only service without a reservation;
2. Move to "global fares", i.e. you don't issue any tickets without a reservation, like Eurostar or airlines;
3. Impose a charge for on-board "issue of reservations" (on the basis that if there aren't any to sell you you will be chucked off at the next station).

 

[43096]

The poll on this thread is absolutely conclusive. Almost 75% think it’s a bad idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The poll on this thread is absolutely conclusive. Almost 75% think it’s a bad idea.

75% of enthusiasts, though. I suspect you might get a different number if you asked members of the public.

 

[Hadders]

It's not the passengers fault it's delayed is it, exactly the same if someone with an advance ticket would be allowed on the next service is their connection was delayed.....

But you don’t need a reservation to get on the next service if you’re delayed using an Advance ticket.

If compulsory reservations become mandatory then potentially you won’t just be able to board the train, you’d have to get a reservation. Then what happens if you can’t get a reservation, or if you’re simply allowed to get on the train then the whole thing starts to fall apart.

You could always ask a member of staff, if you can find one able to help which is not easy. My local station has a regular LNER service but no LNER staff.

 

[gka472l]

But you don’t need a reservation to get on the next service if you’re delayed using an Advance ticket.

If compulsory reservations become mandatory then potentially you won’t just be able to board the train, you’d have to get a reservation. Then what happens if you can’t get a reservation, or if you’re simply allowed to get on the train then the whole thing starts to fall apart.

You could always ask a member of staff, if you can find one able to help which is not easy. My local station has a regular LNER service but no LNER staff.

Hardly falling apart when it's likely only a handful of people is it, like I said earlier, there will be occasions when exceptions have to be made due to disruption or missed connections.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you don’t need a reservation to get on the next service if you’re delayed using an Advance ticket.

If compulsory reservations become mandatory then potentially you won’t just be able to board the train, you’d have to get a reservation. Then what happens if you can’t get a reservation, or if you’re simply allowed to get on the train then the whole thing starts to fall apart.

You could always ask a member of staff, if you can find one able to help which is not easy. My local station has a regular LNER service but no LNER staff.

Well, one scenario that could arise would be that you'd be automatically allocated a seat on a following service and e-mailed that automatically, if you were using an e-ticket? Won't suit everyone, but there's a lot of good stuff that can ensue if you know when people are going to travel. I've mentioned being able to make effective decisions on holding connections based on who will get disrupted before, too.

Does anyone know how it works in disruption on SNCF, FS etc?

 

[geoffk]

Wait until you want to travel on a day and all the trains are sold out...

I've never understood how trains can be "sold out". Planes and coaches can be of course as standing is not permitted.

 

[southern442]

75% of enthusiasts, though. I suspect you might get a different number if you asked members of the public.

This is perhaps true, but most of the public haven't considered most of the other public. I very much doubt that most of the public have considered short-hoppers using intercity services, which is why it should be left to the industry to figure it out.

I've never understood how trains can be "sold out". Planes and coaches can be of course as standing is not permitted.

Well that's what would happen if reservations were compulsory. All the seats would be sold and nobody else would be allowed on the train, hence it is sold out.

 

[Horizon22]

It is hardly going out on a limb to suggest that the reformed fares system will be realtime, totally interactive so you can book and rebook journeys as circumstances change, and unified so that all operators will be on the one service (since old-style franchising is no more). These are all bog-standard features on modern online services, and it is unlikely that the fares system will be different. I expect that we will have a choice of which app we want to interface with the service (Trainline, RailEurope et.al will no doubt want to keep reselling tickets) so I think everyone will be able to find a reseller whose system they are comfortable with.

It's not out on a limb but its certainly ambitious that the fragmented nature of the railway fares system that has developed over decades will be transformed by the industry/DfT to bring a unified, "totally interactive" system within the next few years!

We also have to remember that rail demand is "peaky" (although may be less so over time) but providing capacity to match is not always so easy. Ultimately this should be about choice, and I think if people have fair warning about what their ticket actually is likely to give them, the decision is in the hands of the passenger. Making something compulsory is a rather blunt instrument when there are various travelling patterns.

 

[geoffk]

This is perhaps true, but most of the public haven't considered most of the other public. I very much doubt that most of the public have considered short-hoppers using intercity services, which is why it should be left to the industry to figure it out.


Well that's what would happen if reservations were compulsory. All the seats would be sold and nobody else would be allowed on the train, hence it is sold out.

And you always get "no shows". I've sat in a seat reserved by someone else who has not turned up. Some will make multiple reservations if they are not sure of their return time. So you would have a train "sold out" but with empty seats. The same of course can happen at a concert or football match! Many airlines deliberately overbook on the assumption that a percentage will not turn up. If your flight has been overbooked and not enough passengers volunteer to take a later flight, you could end up being denied boarding. Do we really want to get into this on the railways?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is perhaps true, but most of the public haven't considered most of the other public. I very much doubt that most of the public have considered short-hoppers using intercity services, which is why it should be left to the industry to figure it out.

Interestingly, before Thalys had a big falling-out with DB, they used to have one coach that they wouldn't issue reservations in that extended into Germany (i.e. past Aachen Hbf or whatever the other border crossings were), and that coach was available for local journeys using DB walk-up tickets (I think ICE price level, but might be wrong). You could viably do something like that - I don't know loadings on the ECML, but using a WCML example you might well save one coach on the Scottish services for journeys between Crewe and Carlisle where Avanti provide the local service for local journeys, but those seats could be reserved for Euston-Crewe and Carlisle-Glasgow where the train doesn't serve that role.

The way this used to be expressed in the DB timetable was an ICE put in for the same times as the Thalys, I think.

 

[Horizon22]

Interestingly, before Thalys had a big falling-out with DB, they used to have one coach that they wouldn't issue reservations in that extended into Germany (i.e. past Aachen Hbf or whatever the other border crossings were), and that coach was available for local journeys using DB walk-up tickets (I think ICE price level, but might be wrong). You could viably do something like that - I don't know loadings on the ECML, but using a WCML example you might well save one coach on the Scottish services for journeys between Crewe and Carlisle where Avanti provide the local service for local journeys, but those seats could be reserved for Euston-Crewe and Carlisle-Glasgow where the train doesn't serve that role.

Local coach for local people! Anyway, this would have to be done on a train by train basis, and if its unreserved, what would be to stop anyone else piling into that coach anyway or are you think they'd be reserved too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Local coach for local people! Anyway, this would have to be done on a train by train basis, and if its unreserved, what would be to stop anyone else piling into that coach anyway or are you think they'd be reserved too?

That coach would only exist as unreserved for part of the journey.

And you always get "no shows". I've sat in a seat reserved by someone else who has not turned up. Some will make multiple reservations if they are not sure of their return time. So you would have a train "sold out" but with empty seats. The same of course can happen at a concert or football match! Many airlines deliberately overbook on the assumption that a percentage will not turn up. If your flight has been overbooked and not enough passengers volunteer to take a later flight, you could end up being denied boarding. Do we really want to get into this on the railways?

The way SNCF handle that on the TGV is that there are tip-up seats in the vestibules which they will reserve people into, but they are allowed to take another (proper) seat if unoccupied.

 

[Horizon22]

That coach would only exist as unreserved for part of the journey.



The way SNCF handle that on the TGV is that there are tip-up seats in the vestibules which they will reserve people into, but they are allowed to take another (proper) seat if unoccupied.

Sounds like a logistical nightmare for on-train staff to try and administer - and might annoy passengers - especially if the coach goes reserved-unreserved-reserved for instance.

 

[Clip]

In the real world, maybe, but this is a hypothetical situation. If you are going to make a case for something then you have to be able to provide an explanation for the snags. LNER have to do this as well, but the whole point of this thread is discussing potential scenarios to see if compulsory reservations hold up. If we can just make arguments without ever having to back them up then we are back into 'why not use 442's?' territory again.

LNER haven’t announced anything yet but this is a railway discussion forum and the question I posed is very relevant to the thread.

Opinion on the subject of compulsory seat reservations is certainly divided. Personally, I am strongly against them but I do respect the fact that others hold a different opinion. I am merely pointing out an unintended consequence of compulsory reservations.

In fairness this thread is a poll about compulsory reservations - though tthe main discussion WAS taking place in the LNER thread as they are the ones who have announced it - no one else yet so surely you would agree that people on here probably wont knwo the answer

But if you’re going to allow someone to board without a reservation then it defeats the object of compulsory reservations.

I simply don’t understand how you will prevent passengers without reservations boarding at places like Stevenage, Peterborough, Retford etc. There simply aren’t the staff available to check.

Very true but thats what they need to answer - i mean whilst its probably not possible - or it may be who knows - maybe they can run a crowdbuster for all those who are a victim of disruption and thus that problem goes away. As they look to do this like the airline policy and yes the numbers are smaller on a plane - they still have to get them somewhere dont they and dont all just get on the next plane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like a logistical nightmare for on-train staff to try and administer - and might annoy passengers - especially if the coach goes reserved-unreserved-reserved for instance.

Not really, because every passenger should sit in their correct seat unless they are only travelling for stations between Crewe and Carlisle inclusive (that being the only part of the Avanti Euston-Glasgow direct that doesn't have a parallel local service of some kind). Therefore as long as nobody is reserved in there for anything other than Euston-Crewe or Carlisle-<wherever> it wouldn't be an issue.

It's a bit similar to the Caledonian Sleeper seated coach.

 

[Horizon22]

Not really, because every passenger should sit in their correct seat unless they are only travelling for stations between Crewe and Carlisle inclusive (that being the only part of the Avanti Euston-Glasgow direct that doesn't have a parallel local service of some kind). Therefore as long as nobody is reserved in there for anything other than Euston-Crewe or Carlisle-<wherever> it wouldn't be an issue.

It's a bit similar to the Caledonian Sleeper seated coach.

I think they key part being "should" - the aim is not to make the system additionally complex.

 

[Domh245]

This is perhaps true, but most of the public haven't considered most of the other public. I very much doubt that most of the public have considered short-hoppers using intercity services, which is why it should be left to the industry to figure it out.

Not only that, but if you ask people "do you want a seat with nobody else standing near you" of course they're going to say yes (and if you could be so kind as to throw in free refreshments and a footrub they probably would also say yes to those too). It could never possibly be them that is refused travel because they were too slow to book and all the trains are ""full"", that'd only ever happen to other people

If people really do want to travel without the rest of the public then they can take their car, or pay the increased fares

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they key part being "should" - the aim is not to make the system additionally complex.

There is literally nothing at all complex about "you take the train and seat specified on your ticket, one ticket per vehicle journey". Nothing whatsoever. No "can I sit there", no "what routes are Permitted", no "can I break my journey", no "can I use that Northern train on my TPE ticket?". It is the ultimate fares simplification. The only thing it leaves open is if you can start/finish short.

It has downsides, but "be careful what you wish for".

 

[Horizon22]

There is literally nothing at all complex about "you take the train and seat specified on your ticket, one ticket per vehicle journey". Nothing whatsoever. No "can I sit there", no "what routes are Permitted", no "can I break my journey", no "can I use that Northern train on my TPE ticket?". It is the ultimate fares simplification. The only thing it leaves open is if you can start/finish short.

It has downsides, but "be careful what you wish for".

No the ticketing side in that scenario is relatively simple, I was more discussing the reserved-unreserved split which has the potential for additional confusion.

 

[Randomer]

Just to be clear I voted for disagree in the poll.

However, my concern here doesn't revolve around LNER or Avanti as long as arrangements for disruption or delayed connections were sensible as others have outlined i.e. board the next available service no reservation needed, which I'm still not sure is the case currently despite previous threads on this topic I can't find any officially posted guidance from LNER on this when your connection to the LNER service is delayed. Or perhaps for the passenger to have the choice of next available service, new reservation or full refund (not delay repay dependent on time delayed, more if service you have reservation on is cancelled automatic full refund.)

My greater concern is that other operators, Crosscountry is the one that immediately comes to mind, will persist in having a reservation only policy when they are the only operator on the flow in question and have very limited capacity. I'm not sure anyone could sensibly call something like Bristol-Cheltenham or Cheltenham-Birmingham (both under an hour) a long distance journey but with a compulsory reservation system it effectively removes all flexibility for what should be a simple journey.

A system of pay as you go "local" or commuting journeys combined with compulsory reservation intercity sounds great in theory but falls down in practice when you don't have a separation between short and long distance services or operator. Why should a less than one hour commute into London or Manchester for example on a season or PAYG be turn up and go but the same time and distance for a commute on the same ticket type now require reservations elsewhere in the country due to the lack of capacity of the operator concerned?