Food for thought for those applying - Risk of over preparing for the driver tests

[hiredgun]

It feels like a large amount of topics here are hopeful people applying for driver positions or awaiting stage 1/2 tests, asking for tips or insight into the tests, fair enough I guess.

A word of caution, if I may, though?

As is regularly replied on these pages, the tests are carefully designed to assess a candidates atributes to see if they are suitable for the task. You either have them or you don’t..

It is surely possible to practice the specific tests enough that you can increase your scores on the day, in a way ‘cheating the test’, the OPC mark it and say to the TOC/FOC
“This person has what it takes”

Best case sinario :-
You become a driver, all goes well and your dreams are fulfilled.

Most likely sinario:-
You get your hopes up and have them dashed at MMI or DMI as these people have spent years talking to successful drivers and they know how they ‘tick’

Worst case sinario :-
You get through the MMI / DMI, get on a course... quit the job that paid your mortgage, spend a painful 6 weeks filling your head with relentless rules then 3 weeks on traction, poss the company will pull you up at this point in the constant assessments because you’ve not been able to absorb and retain the huge amounts of info required?
Maybe the mentor will spot that you don’t have the levels of consentration, attention to detail or knowledge retention or maybe it will come up on the final exam.... but if it does, they won’t be able to let you drive on the mainline alone.
Be disheartening to have to go back to your old job, cap in hand?

I used to race motorbikes, on an amateur level, but I was acutely aware no matter how much practice I did I was never competitive with the front runners, they just had skills I didn’t.
There’d be no point me ‘faking’ my way to the starting grid with the pros only to fall off or get lapped on each race?

 

[tlionhart]

I agree with you. Some of the guys going for the job do little to no homework. Come on rail forums just for assessment answers with the concept that ‘I passed the application and tests’ Easy, roll on the big dollar.

I’ll provide an insight into what this job is really like once you’ve passed that first hurdle. This also includes a personal experience of the process.
This job is one of those that you can either do or not at all. There’s countless threads regarding training courses, but a thing to add the application tests are not even the start of the journey. You get 2 shots at your assessments.
- There’s a lot of them. I believe I did around 24. You’re looking at approx 92% pass mark. It’s not multiple choice either...doesn’t sound bad, but it doesn’t take much to fall below that. They don’t want you to fail, but it’s not cotton wool and fluffy. They do boot people who don’t pull their way. (You don’t get countless warnings. I was a good student with 98-100%. I got 94% in one exam. It’s a pass, but the Trainer wasn’t happy with my decline in performance. The trainer is highly observant in everyone and watches everything you do. They use your attitude, exams, knowledge retention to build a picture of whether you can do the job. They’ll keep that record for your driving career too. This ultimately builds a profile of you in your career. Further information to build your profile later on are downloads, ride outs, rules assessments, simulator assessments, incident record. The railway loves paper trails. (Well digital ones now)

- The simulator assessment...tough as nails
- pass out...tough as nails. Admittedly I failed my first attempt at pass out. I got another go, but you can’t mess the second shot up! You’ll get a training analysis to see how they can help you and fill in the gaps and deficiencies...on your second assessment day it’s going to be luck. It was highly stressful!

Then there’s the job itself with routine assessments. They are super strict. Sadly I’ve lost count of those that have been booted from the job.
The old saying ‘hard to get, easy to lose’ is true. However a positive, honest attitude will see you fine.

It’s a lifestyle too...

If you’re going for the job to just chase the money (fair enough)...but be warned. It gets boring quick! The key word here is boring...it won’t take long before that boredom sees you out of the job. I’ve seen many come and go from all types of backgrounds. In most cases the toc will try and support you and offer alternative employment if possible, But how much would it suck though to be on gateline whilst a colleague walks by with a coffee in hand and a smile as they make their way to the train they’re about to drive?

To further add you have to prove yourself when you’re a trainee. You’ll hear “you’re not drivers yet”, “you have to earn your key”. My toc introduced a separate uniform for trainees, very honestly to tailor back the cockiness. It’s very much like a military style training attitude. As a trainee you’re on the bottom of the pile, replaceable and zilch respect is given to you. I’ve mentioned this because it’s all very well to ‘wing’ the Psychometric exams, simply by coming on here and purging the answers. However, as the OP has stated it’s only the start of your journey. If you’re weak to begin with, you will possibly struggle with this job.

On the positive note, once you passed the application, trainee and 3yr probationary period...this job is super awesome! By this stage you learn the upmost respect for it and truly feel like you’ve earned this job.

 

[rail-god]

WOW!!!!!!!

Congrats both of you. You've both hit the nail on the head.

Amen.

 

[387star]

I agree with you. Some of the guys going for the job do little to no homework. Come on rail forums just for assessment answers with the concept that ‘I passed the application and tests’ Easy, roll on the big dollar.

I’ll provide an insight into what this job is really like once you’ve passed that first hurdle.
This job is one of those that you can either do or not at all. There’s countless threads regarding training courses, but a thing to add the application tests are not even the start of the journey. You get 2 shots at your assessments.
- There’s a lot of them. I believe I did around 24. You’re looking at approx 92% pass mark. It’s not multiple choice either...doesn’t sound bad, but it doesn’t take much to fall below that. They don’t want you to fail, but it’s not cotton wool and fluffy. They do boot people who don’t pull their way. (You don’t get countless warnings. I was a good student with 98-100%. I got 94% in one exam. It’s a pass, but the Trainer wasn’t happy with my decline in performance. The trainer is highly observant in everyone and watches everything you do. They use your attitude, exams, knowledge retention to build a picture of whether you can do the job. They’ll keep that record for your driving career too. This ultimately builds a profile of you in your career. Further information to build your profile later on are downloads, ride outs, rules assessments, simulator assessments, incident record. The railway loves paper trails. (Well digital ones now)

- The simulator assessment...tough as nails
- pass out...tough as nails. Admittedly I failed my first attempt at pass out. I got another go, but you can’t mess the second shot up! You’ll get a training analysis to see how they can help you and fill in the gaps and deficiencies...on your second assessment day it’s going to be luck. It was highly stressful!

Then there’s the job itself with routine assessments. They are super strict. Sadly I’ve lost count of those that have been booted from the job.
The old saying ‘hard to get, easy to lose’ is true. However a positive, honest attitude will see you fine.

It’s a lifestyle too...

If you’re going for the job to just chase the money (fair enough)...but be warned. It gets boring quick! The key word here is boring...it won’t take long before that boredom sees you out of the job. I’ve seen many come and go from all types of backgrounds. In most cases the toc will try and support you and offer alternative employment if possible, But how much would it suck though to be on gateline whilst a colleague walks by with a coffee in hand and a smile as they make their way to the train they’re about to drive?

To further add you have to prove yourself when you’re a trainee. You’ll hear “you’re not drivers yet”, “you have to earn your key”. My toc introduced a separate uniform for trainees, very honestly to tailor back the cockiness. It’s very much like a military style training attitude. As a trainee you’re on the bottom of the pile, replaceable and zilch respect is given to you. I’ve mentioned this because it’s all very well to ‘wing’ the Psychometric exams, simply by coming on here and purging the answers. However, as the OP has stated it’s only the start of your journey. If you’re weak to begin with, you will possibly struggle with this job.

On the positive note, once you passed the application, trainee and 3yr probationary period...this job is super awesome! By this stage you learn the upmost respect for it and truly feel like you’ve earned this job.

Great post
Its true when you're a trainee you're pretty much ignored and drivers relieving you talk to your DI and ignore you. It can be a shock as even if you were a Guard you are treated as a complete beginner. Different if you go internally as a Guard as your character is known !
I remember when I started we were afraid to enter the Driver's mess room! Some drivers are welcoming but I did find some hostile . Learning new Thameslink routes a Southern Driver said 'You're taking away the guy at the back!' Which seemed unfair. I answeredI support Guards having been one myself to which I received no reply !

 

[Stigy]

I agree with you. Some of the guys going for the job do little to no homework. Come on rail forums just for assessment answers with the concept that ‘I passed the application and tests’ Easy, roll on the big dollar.

I’ll provide an insight into what this job is really like once you’ve passed that first hurdle.
This job is one of those that you can either do or not at all. There’s countless threads regarding training courses, but a thing to add the application tests are not even the start of the journey. You get 2 shots at your assessments.
- There’s a lot of them. I believe I did around 24. You’re looking at approx 92% pass mark. It’s not multiple choice either...doesn’t sound bad, but it doesn’t take much to fall below that. They don’t want you to fail, but it’s not cotton wool and fluffy. They do boot people who don’t pull their way. (You don’t get countless warnings. I was a good student with 98-100%. I got 94% in one exam. It’s a pass, but the Trainer wasn’t happy with my decline in performance. The trainer is highly observant in everyone and watches everything you do. They use your attitude, exams, knowledge retention to build a picture of whether you can do the job. They’ll keep that record for your driving career too. This ultimately builds a profile of you in your career. Further information to build your profile later on are downloads, ride outs, rules assessments, simulator assessments, incident record. The railway loves paper trails. (Well digital ones now)

- The simulator assessment...tough as nails
- pass out...tough as nails. Admittedly I failed my first attempt at pass out. I got another go, but you can’t mess the second shot up! You’ll get a training analysis to see how they can help you and fill in the gaps and deficiencies...on your second assessment day it’s going to be luck. It was highly stressful!

Then there’s the job itself with routine assessments. They are super strict. Sadly I’ve lost count of those that have been booted from the job.
The old saying ‘hard to get, easy to lose’ is true. However a positive, honest attitude will see you fine.

It’s a lifestyle too...

If you’re going for the job to just chase the money (fair enough)...but be warned. It gets boring quick! The key word here is boring...it won’t take long before that boredom sees you out of the job. I’ve seen many come and go from all types of backgrounds. In most cases the toc will try and support you and offer alternative employment if possible, But how much would it suck though to be on gateline whilst a colleague walks by with a coffee in hand and a smile as they make their way to the train they’re about to drive?

To further add you have to prove yourself when you’re a trainee. You’ll hear “you’re not drivers yet”, “you have to earn your key”. My toc introduced a separate uniform for trainees, very honestly to tailor back the cockiness. It’s very much like a military style training attitude. As a trainee you’re on the bottom of the pile, replaceable and zilch respect is given to you. I’ve mentioned this because it’s all very well to ‘wing’ the Psychometric exams, simply by coming on here and purging the answers. However, as the OP has stated it’s only the start of your journey. If you’re weak to begin with, you will possibly struggle with this job.

On the positive note, once you passed the application, trainee and 3yr probationary period...this job is super awesome! By this stage you learn the upmost respect for it and truly feel like you’ve earned this job.

Well put, however it’s not the same at all TOCs in terms of pass marks and how many attempts you get at things. In my opinion this job is as easy to keep as you make it. Attitude plays a massive part in it, too. Throughout training you’re assessed in the classroom, then out and about during handling, then continuously really thought your career.

If you’re at the same TOC as I am, which I suspect you are since you mention different uniform (a good idea in my opinion), then the classroom based tests are very much NOT a simple two goes and you’re out. There’s only actually a few exams this applies to, and they’re the “big” ones. All others are knowledge checks, aimed at making sure you’re “getting it”. There’s a pass mark of 91%, but if you fall below this, you’ll be re-briefed and sent on your Merry way to tackle the next assessment (I got 96-99% in most of mine, but also got a couple of 88-90% ‘ers).

Of course, this isn’t the same for all TOCs/FOCs, and chances are, you’ll find that there’s countless different policies depending on who you work for.

To say you have no respect as a trainee is partially correct, but mainly from ASLEF. The rest is depot dependent (at any TOC I’d imagine). I felt respected at my depot whilst training, but then we’re a close knit team. I feel that I’m treated differently now I’ve passed out, but mainly by my manager. He’s quite old school, and I believe probably gives all trainees a hard time until they’ve earned their stripes.

Finally, I agree about the money side of things. As I’ve made clear in another thread, my view is that if you join this job solely for the money, it’ll become complacent. Ideally, you need to do this job because of the nature of the work and the fact that you want to be a train driver. If you don’t want to be a train driver but want £60k a year, you may find yourself in a predicament. You’re putting your life on hold for the best part of 12-18 months (maybe longer with Covid) for the training alone.

Great post
Its true when you're a trainee you're pretty much ignored and drivers relieving you talk to your DI and ignore you. It can be a shock as even if you were a Guard you are treated as a complete beginner. Different if you go internally as a Guard as your character is known !
I remember when I started we were afraid to enter the Driver's mess room! Some drivers are welcoming but I did find some hostile . Learning new Thameslink routes a Southern Driver said 'You're taking away the guy at the back!' Which seemed unfair. I answeredI support Guards having been one myself to which I received no reply !

In terms of respect, I do agree that when handing over a train, drivers spoke to my DI rather than me, however

 

[tlionhart]

I would say it’s down to personal experiences.
Mine is that of an outsider with no railway experience. The railway is also constantly changing. I know lots of the exams have been scrapped, re-written. Even the route learning has had an overhaul. (Based on our TOC we’re both at)
As 387star mentions, my experience of messrooms is almost identical. Although many are old school so would probably explain it. I didn’t have any personal issues, but have seen and heard horrors. Hahaha When I did the exams, they were as brutal as described, so perhaps they’ve calmed down? Most of the old school trainers have left and now there are younger trainers. Some I know personally.

I do agree with your post fully Stigy, so I have also edited initial post to say it was a personal experience. To this day, people do get booted from the course and it doesn’t take much. My training was 18 months with traction and routes. Routes was the biggest bulk.

I would not like to scare people off from the job too. It requires hard work, but the end is worth it

 

[martin2345uk]

Very surprised to hear of trainees being "ignored" by more experienced drivers, sounds awfully archaic and unnecessary - there was none of that at my FOC, we were all treated with as much respect as anyone else, which is as it should be IMO, as long as you have a relatively humble attitude and accept that at first you know pretty much bugger-all.

 

[Stigy]

Very surprised to hear of trainees being "ignored" by more experienced drivers, sounds awfully archaic and unnecessary - there was none of that at my FOC, we were all treated with as much respect as anyone else, which is as it should be IMO, as long as you have a relatively humble attitude and accept that at first you know pretty much bugger-all.

100% agree. It was the same at my place. I appreciate it can happen, but from what I’ve seen it seems to be at larger depots?

I would say it’s down to personal experiences.
Mine is that of an outsider with no railway experience. The railway is also constantly changing. I know lots of the exams have been scrapped, re-written. Even the route learning has had an overhaul. (Based on our TOC we’re both at)
As 387star mentions, my experience of messrooms is almost identical. Although many are old school so would probably explain it. I didn’t have any personal issues, but have seen and heard horrors. Hahaha When I did the exams, they were as brutal as described, so perhaps they’ve calmed down? Most of the old school trainers have left and now there are younger trainers. Some I know personally.

I do agree with your post fully Stigy, so I have also edited initial post to say it was a personal experience. To this day, people do get booted from the course and it doesn’t take much. My training was 18 months with traction and routes. Routes was the biggest bulk.

I would not like to scare people off from the job too. It requires hard work, but the end is worth it

I understand it has changed in recent years definitely, although judging by what you said about the amount of exams, I think we probably had the same amount quite easily. They’ve changed more so since I finished classroom training too, in that they’re not graded as a percentage now, so even more knowledge check like.

I also believe that the trainer you get during your classroom and traction training plays a big part in how it pans out. We had several which wasn’t an ideal setup, especially when they don’t tell you the same thing a lot of the time and the PowerPoints were frankly terrible

We had one exceptional trainer luckily for the majority of it, and one absolutely abysmal bully. Forgot to mention in my initial post, agreed about the Sim assessment too, although I passed first time, I believe that also has to do with having an approachable and accommodating assessor. Sometimes people need to factor in what it’s like to actually be in a trainee’s shoes and the stress they’re going through.

 

[route101]

Most jobs I've started as a newbie your ignored. Not pleasant. Refreshing when someone does make the effort and talk to you though. I suppose theres a reason why its hard to become a train driver.

 

[Locomotivation]

Really good thread if a little sobering especially as I’m hoping to start my training soon (job offer with medical result pending).

My approach to the assessments was not to try and train/prepare. I came on here to establish what they entailed but, at the end of the day, as much as I desperately want to be a driver, I didn’t want to take any short cuts and find that I’m not good enough later down the line.

After 27 years in the same job I’m now taking a huge risk in switching careers. I’m expecting the training to be hellish but I’d be forever kicking myself if I didn’t give it a go.

This thread just makes me more determined to succeed!

 

[YingYing]

Really good thread if a little sobering especially as I’m hoping to start my training soon (job offer with medical result pending).

My approach to the assessments was not to try and train/prepare. I came on here to establish what they entailed but, at the end of the day, as much as I desperately want to be a driver, I didn’t want to take any short cuts and find that I’m not good enough later down the line.

After 27 years in the same job I’m now taking a huge risk in switching careers. I’m expecting the training to be hellish but I’d be forever kicking myself if I didn’t give it a go.

This thread just makes me more determined to succeed!

I would agree with this and the initial comment in the thread. There's been quite an increase in people not just asking for an idea of what to expect on assessment days (which is totally reasonable), but asking for exact details of how assessments are marked and even contents of the test to try and get an edge over others.
I maintain that everything you need to know can already be found on this forum, as well as the practice materials provided by the OPC.

 

[peters]

I would guess any job which includes paid training or for where a grant is available to cover training costs will be very popular the moment. There were reports of those made redundant from the financial industry following the 2008 recession took advantage of financial schemes made available to trainee teachers and there's reports of those made redundant from travel due to COVID taking advantage of the NHS Learning Support Fund. Why wouldn't trainee train driver vacancies have hundreds or even thousands of applicants?

 

[HLE]

This thread reminds me of doing stage 2 at Watford in the past. 4 coppers plus me and a guard all waiting for the MMI. The lad who was the internal spoke for all of 2 minutes about how drivers had been off for months post incident, spoke about the low (but real) course failure rate and how for the first few years post qual is heavily assessed. To say eyes and mouths widened for all 4 was an understatement.

I'd come from a profession that's heavily regulated, takes years of training/experience to be competent and making one big mistake can mean curtains. Rare but it happens. I knew the railway wouldn't be a walk in the park and acted that way.

 

[bouff34]

I would agree with this and the initial comment in the thread. There's been quite an increase in people not just asking for an idea of what to expect on assessment days (which is totally reasonable), but asking for exact details of how assessments are marked and even contents of the test to try and get an edge over others.
I maintain that everything you need to know can already be found on this forum, as well as the practice materials provided by the OPC.

It's self defeating anyway. If everyone 'knows' how to pass then it becomes much harder for everyone - the pass level has to go up or they have to change the tests. As said by the OP if you are coached into being able to pass then you are missing the point of the whole assessment process.

 

[Economist]

I did some practice prior to the tests but not exhaustively, after all, the OPC send out practice material. I also read up extensively on both the recruitment process and the job itself and spoke to a qualified driver I'd met by chance through the non-railway career I'd had at the time. I think one of the most important thing for me throughout the training and my subsequent career is that I find the railway interesting. There are people who unfortunately only see the financial side of things and come unstuck quickly once they're on the training course or in their first few months PQ.

There are some people who do exceptionally well, out of the people I know, the over-50's seem to be some of the best performers.

Whilst I can understand why TOCs aren't keen on "spotter" types, picking people with a reasonable interest in the railways and quite a bit of life experience would probably be a fairly safe bet.

Edited to remove specific examples of why people fail to pass training.

 

[DriverEight]

Whilst I can understand why TOCs aren't keen on "spotter" types, picking people with a reasonable interest in the railways and quite a bit of life experience would probably be a fairly safe bet.

I think that describes me. I'm no spotter, but I find rail operations interesting. I'm a truck driver by trade, and I recall crossing the ECML near Thirsk and being able to see miles down a particularly straight stretch of track. In the distance, I saw two flashing yellow lights and wondered what it meant. That night, I looked it up and the more I looked into it, the more interesting it became. I love learning, especially about how machines and systems are structured and controlled, so the operation of the railways fascinated me, and still does. Trains are interesting too, but as pieces of engineering, not as works of art. Except for the A4 Pacifics. They're just plain beautiful.

So the attraction of train driving is a chance to continue to learn about something that interests me, whilst also taking on the challenges of a new and rewarding career. If the salary was the same as I get now, I'd still apply, but the fact that it's considerably more is just a delightful bonus!

 

[Locomotivation]

I did some practice prior to the tests but not exhaustively, after all, the OPC send out practice material. I also read up extensively on both the recruitment process and the job itself and spoke to a qualified driver I'd met by chance through the non-railway career I'd had at the time. I think one of the most important thing for me throughout the training and my subsequent career is that I find the railway interesting. There are people who unfortunately only see the financial side of things and come unstuck quickly once they're on the training course or in their first few months PQ.

There are some people who do exceptionally well, out of the people I know, the over-50's seem to be some of the best performers.

That said, I do wonder how some people make it through the tests at all:
One had over thirty "majors" on his first ICA (final assessment), on his second attempt he didn't even get as far as the train itself.
One was a mobile phone addict, came out of an exam with notes written on the palm of her hand. Later failed practical assessments multiple times and didn't qualify.
Another was debriefed by a DI and told to remember everything for the following day, the next day he couldn't remember the debrief at all, there was a rumour that the "trainee" was actually twin brothers taking turns.

Whilst I can understand why TOCs aren't keen on "spotter" types, picking people with a reasonable interest in the railways and quite a bit of life experience would probably be a fairly safe bet.

“There are some people who do exceptionally well, out of the people I know, the over-50's seem to be some of the best performers.”

Yay! I’m 51. There was me worrying it was a disadvantage

 

[Bucephalus]

Okay. So, instead of telling people they are not cut out for the job, should we be telling what to do to become the person that is cut out for the job?

Can a person become that person? Maybe I'm missing the point

 

[Stigy]

Okay. So, instead of telling people they are not cut out for the job, should we be telling what to do to become the person that is cut out for the job?

Can a person become that person? Maybe I'm missing the point

To an extent you can, but the psychometric assessments are intended to indicate whether you’d be cut out for the role and the training involved. You can teach someone the technicalities of driving a train, but it’s a bit more difficult when it comes to learning rules and traction. It’s difficult anyway I guess, as everybody learns at different rates.

As an example, without the psychometrics, you could get all the way to practical train handling, and realise you can’t concentrate for long periods of time. The psychometric assessments are fallible, don’t get me wrong, but for the most part they serve their purpose reasonably well in my opinion.

 

[martin2345uk]

Really good thread if a little sobering especially as I’m hoping to start my training soon (job offer with medical result pending).

My approach to the assessments was not to try and train/prepare. I came on here to establish what they entailed but, at the end of the day, as much as I desperately want to be a driver, I didn’t want to take any short cuts and find that I’m not good enough later down the line.

After 27 years in the same job I’m now taking a huge risk in switching careers. I’m expecting the training to be hellish but I’d be forever kicking myself if I didn’t give it a go.

This thread just makes me more determined to succeed!

Again I see this kind of thing a fair bit - there's no need to expect it to be 'hellish' - it's an intensive training course to prepare you for a new job, I found the vast majority of it to be enjoyable, yeah we had to put a lot of effort in but it honestly wasn't the army-cadet style endurance test I see on here a lot

 

[train-safe]

Again I see this kind of thing a fair bit - there's no need to expect it to be 'hellish' - it's an intensive training course to prepare you for a new job, I found the vast majority of it to be enjoyable, yeah we had to put a lot of effort in but it honestly wasn't the army-cadet style endurance test I see on here a lot

100% this, like any technical job there is a lot to learn, but if you go in and enjoy the course and look forward to learning about rules etc then you will be on to a winner.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't really get the need to treat trainees as non-people. As a guard I always treat trainee drivers nicely, I try and remember their names, do the pre-departure chat about the journey with them and so on - the difference being where there are occasions I would normally ring an experienced driver during the journey to pass on information or whatever (crossings failed, you might get cautioned in x,y,z area, whatever else like that) I only ring trainee drivers when it's urgent or a rulebook requirement unless the instructor has asked me to do so - sometimes they'll ask you to ring the trainee during a safe bit of the journey to see how they cope with the distraction, or give them one on the buzzer before they take power to see how they react to that.

Equally if they've given us a nice ride and kept to time I like to mention that at the end of the journey, or if they've managed something that happened well.

The same goes for when they're newly qualified and on their own - I try to be a reassuring calming influence especially if something goes wrong (having been unlucky myself I've experienced a reasonable amount of problems) and have seen plenty of drivers who were a bit twitchy at the start settle down to be really very good.

 

[Horizon22]

We have to also remember these roles are incredibly competitive - we're talking rations of 1000+:1 for each vacancy when these come up - and therefore even getting part-way through a phase probably means you are better than 80-90% of people and should take some heart in that. A select few will "have it" and that's what the MMI and DMI will look out for - you may not know it until it happens. This can be learnt through experience, or your attitude or your personality, but they'll be looking for the right person in incredibly competitive times. Older drivers may not have gone through such a hard process, so bear that in mind.

So if you do make it all the way through the standards will be tough and rightly so - you've beaten hundreds or thousands of people to a coveted role. Personally, although I work in the industry driving is not something I would ever consider - my mind wonders, the start and end times can be at stupid-o-clock and I feel quite productive in my sector of the industry. Some driver jobs can be incredibly dull - I can't fathom working a Heathrow Express service all day for instance!

Do you research and really understand the role and crucially for the TOC you are applying for - an intercity driver and a metro all-stops driver will have wildly varying days even though the core of the job remains the same. Learn from others in these topics and if you meet the standard fantastic. Treat the role and others will respect and never stop learning.

 

[TheGoldfish]

I was under the impression from the start that the tests couldn’t be learnt ... I just did the practice material they supplied and followed the guidance and I passed ..interview prepped and got myself ready with my evidence ... and passed .... all good ..then the training starts ... I’m not saying I’m struggling but it’s not easy going .... lots of my own time being put in but what I’m saying is if anyone is struggling with the recruitment then I doubt they’ll get through the training ... reading threads on here with people getting in a state over the GB test .... they’ll be having a complete meltdown if they do scrape through to a trainee position .... as they say if you’re not gonna survive a war it’s best to get killed right at the start rather than go through all the hell and then buy it 2 days before the armistice .... ?

 

[Stigy]

I don't really get the need to treat trainees as non-people. As a guard I always treat trainee drivers nicely, I try and remember their names, do the pre-departure chat about the journey with them and so on - the difference being where there are occasions I would normally ring an experienced driver during the journey to pass on information or whatever (crossings failed, you might get cautioned in x,y,z area, whatever else like that) I only ring trainee drivers when it's urgent or a rulebook requirement unless the instructor has asked me to do so - sometimes they'll ask you to ring the trainee during a safe bit of the journey to see how they cope with the distraction, or give them one on the buzzer before they take power to see how they react to that.

Equally if they've given us a nice ride and kept to time I like to mention that at the end of the journey, or if they've managed something that happened well.

The same goes for when they're newly qualified and on their own - I try to be a reassuring calming influence especially if something goes wrong (having been unlucky myself I've experienced a reasonable amount of problems) and have seen plenty of drivers who were a bit twitchy at the start settle down to be really very good.

How do you mean you phone the DI up rather than the trainee? Surely you use the cab to cab and whoever answers you speak to? Just curious really. It’s nice to have guards who are accommodating sometimes definitely. Even if it’s just giving an extra free seconds before giving 2 on the buzzer for a brand new trainee to allow time to get set up, as even with an instructors next to you, it’s easy to become rushed.

 

[Mattydo]

This talk of ignoring new trainees and indeed to an extent newly qualified drivers does surprise me. In the industry I’m coming from it is a human factors issue that the industry has spent a considerable amount of time, effort and money to overcome.

Crew Resource Management (CRM) training as it’s called initially focussed on flight deck power gradients. There were several incidents (The BMI Kegworth crash on the M1 in 1989 being a major one), where junior crew (pilots and cabin) were too scared to speak up when a captain made a mistake for fear of retribution or, assuming they “knew what they were doing”.

It was found that this mentality started in the pilot’s lounge where seniority played a huge part in a social pecking order.

The Captains, predominantly ex military, were also not used to having decisions challenged.

What followed those findings was a huge purge on ex military recruitment and a bigger focus on what my seniors may refer to as the fluffy aspects of the job but human factors trainers would refer to as; creating a safe environment for open communication.

In recent years it was found to be even more important in a training situation where an absolutist approach to training resulted in poorer uptake of information and a reluctance to ask questions for fear of being reprimanded for not having already acquired the information.

Now don’t get me wrong, experience is highly valuable, but with it can come complacency and an attitude of expectation that is not conducive to learning.

I would expect as Non-Techs become more important in the railway industry these discussions and concepts will also become more common.

 

[Locomotivation]

Again I see this kind of thing a fair bit - there's no need to expect it to be 'hellish' - it's an intensive training course to prepare you for a new job, I found the vast majority of it to be enjoyable, yeah we had to put a lot of effort in but it honestly wasn't the army-cadet style endurance test I see on here a lot

Thanks mate (and train safe). I’m a grafter so I’m sure I’ll be fine

 

[Horizon22]

This talk of ignoring new trainees and indeed to an extent newly qualified drivers does surprise me. In the industry I’m coming from it is a human factors issue that the industry has spent a considerable amount of time, effort and money to overcome.

Crew Resource Management (CRM) training as it’s called initially focussed on flight deck power gradients. There were several incidents (The BMI Kegworth crash on the M1 in 1989 being a major one), where junior crew (pilots and cabin) were too scared to speak up when a captain made a mistake for fear of retribution or, assuming they “knew what they were doing”.

It was found that this mentality started in the pilot’s lounge where seniority played a huge part in a social pecking order.

The Captains, predominantly ex military, were also not used to having decisions challenged.

What followed those findings was a huge purge on ex military recruitment and a bigger focus on what my seniors may refer to as the fluffy aspects of the job but human factors trainers would refer to as; creating a safe environment for open communication.

In recent years it was found to be even more important in a training situation where an absolutist approach to training resulted in poorer uptake of information and a reluctance to ask questions for fear of being reprimanded for not having already acquired the information.

Now don’t get me wrong, experience is highly valuable, but with it can come complacency and an attitude of expectation that is not conducive to learning.

I would expect as Non-Techs become more important in the railway industry these discussions and concepts will also become more common.

I think the "ignoring" is more in the social setting rather than the in-cab setting which would indeed be a CRM issue - or indeed it it follows through from the mess room. Most drivers won't encounter fellow drivers on their actual driving and will be paired with 1 (or a few) DIs throughout their training only handing over to another driver at specified handover points.

 

[LowLevel]

How do you mean you phone the DI up rather than the trainee? Surely you use the cab to cab and whoever answers you speak to? Just curious really. It’s nice to have guards who are accommodating sometimes definitely. Even if it’s just giving an extra free seconds before giving 2 on the buzzer for a brand new trainee to allow time to get set up, as even with an instructors next to you, it’s easy to become rushed.

That's not quite what I mean - what I meant was, say I have an experienced driver up front and an ABC - L crossing a few minutes away has come through as failing to operate the driver's white light, I'll use my judgement to give them a head's up about that so they can approach it with greater caution, with the decision making time to apply the brake in those situations being fairly short, knowing that they'll use the information I've given them as it suits them - locally monitored crossings being a source of risk. If I know they're going to get a lot of notice of a need to stop out of course through 4 aspect signalling I might leave them to it, if I know a 2 aspect distant and stop signal combination that is usually off in the middle of nowhere may well be on to caution them for something then if it seems convenient I'll warn them.

If I know there a trainee driver up front, I generally wouldn't phone them even with routine information like that - I might mention it to the DI during a station stop, but I wouldn't want to risk distracting them from the task at hand while they're learning the ropes, as the risk of immediate distraction while they have to discuss what I'm telling them with their DI would I imagine be greater than that of having to just react to the usual adverse crossing indicator.

If something serious cracks off then as you say, whoever answers the phone answers the phone and you work it out between you.

That's how my thought process works anyway - whenever I need to contact the driver I balance up the risk of distraction as a consequence vs the importance of the information I want to pass on/discuss and if at all possible leave it until we've stopped.

 

[Mattydo]

I think the "ignoring" is more in the social setting rather than the in-cab setting which would indeed be a CRM issue - or indeed it it follows through from the mess room. Most drivers won't encounter fellow drivers on their actual driving and will be paired with 1 (or a few) DIs throughout their training only handing over to another driver at specified handover points.

Granted but CRM would usually advocate at least a certain amount of pleasantries in a social setting too. In uniform at least.