Remaining Class 365s leaving GN - What next for the 365s?

[Ianno87]

So why is it that South Eastern is expected to cope while Southern (which also must be subject to the same drop in ridership) apparently gets preferential treatment?

Southern is arguably more leisure oriented with the market to Brighton etc.

 

[physics34]

So why is it that South Eastern is expected to cope while Southern (which also must be subject to the same drop in ridership) apparently gets preferential treatment?

Southern would be minus a few units too

 

[bramling]

So why is it that South Eastern is expected to cope while Southern (which also must be subject to the same drop in ridership) apparently gets preferential treatment?

Presumably the 707s would have resulted in some Networkers going off-lease. Whilst this has never been clarified (AFAIK) it must surely have been inevitable simply on account of the shortage of stabling space. Keeping these Networkers and moving the 377/5s away is still a net capacity gain.

It does rather mean that SE Metro fleet replacement would have to be more Desiro City units, as otherwise the 707s become a microfleet on SE.

Maybe after lockdown if the expected reduction in ridership takes place they might be.


Im a little bit lost north of the river to be honest, but yeh i was thinking those surplus 700s maybe adequate. I have no idea about the peak time requirements up there. Maybe some 387s could stay. Gatwick Express may never get back to the service levels it had.

It’s all complex as there’s quite a few variables, not least what happens with ridership.

However binning off the 313/455 fleets and making Southern all-Electrostar does seem a very worthwhile objective, but it does leave quite a shortfall of units on GN. This could no doubt be covered by using Southern units and spare 700/0s in the short-term, but in the medium term it would be an issue.

There is the makings of a neat plan though, as the only unused “modern” fleets would then be the 350/2s and 458s. The latter I suspect are finished, and the former could happily go to SWR to oust the 442s, leaving the ScotRail 318/320 as the only 1980s EMUs left.

The biggest snag is passenger numbers returning quickly, to which the obvious remedy remains the 365s back to GN.

Southern is arguably more leisure oriented with the market to Brighton etc.

I’d say the south central outers have always been a lot busier (parts of Kent have always been very dead in the off-peak, especially the Ramsgate/Dover/Canterbury West/Ashford/Tonbridge/Maidstone area, less so the LCDR route). However by contrast SE metro is busier.

 

[southern442]

Southern is arguably more leisure oriented with the market to Brighton etc.

Just throwing this out there, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if SE services to Margate, Broadstairs and Dover start becoming busier as suddenly destinations in the UK become popular again.

Even if not, I really cannot see how the 707s could sufficiently shift things around enough to allow the 377/5s to go back over to Southern, unless you have all the Ashford and Tunbridge Wells services go entirely to 465/9 operation.

They might as well just get rid of Gatwick Express and use the extra 387/2s instead.

 

[Chiltern006]

GX to Gatwick runs are out until 2023 at least. no clue if fast Brighton runs will go back to pre-covid

 

[southern442]

GX to Gatwick runs are out until 2023 at least. no clue if fast Brighton runs will go back to pre-covid

Not gonna lie, I think the current timetable is far better, the arrangement they have now works well even with the reduction in direct Brighton services.

 

[Chiltern006]

totally agree with you. and gtr aren't illegally charging higher fares for a similar (if not worse) service via GX, instead of SN

 

[365 Networker]

Could the 365s then find themselves being re-leased on dirt cheap terms on the basis that any lease is better than storage costs, perhaps with bodyside cameras thrown in (the need for wayside DOO equipment being their biggest bugbear at the moment)?

Possibly DOO equipment could be tested on the 365 currently being fitted with ETCS. I suspect quite a bit of work will be done on the cab - so fitting DOO screens shouldn’t be too difficult.

 

[Fincra5]

Not gonna lie, I think the current timetable is far better, the arrangement they have now works well even with the reduction in direct Brighton services.

Almost, there's an issue where the 1HXX follow a TLK into HHE. Due the miminum time behind the TLK, so if thats late it has a knock on effect! (Doesn't help that 1HXX is signalled into P1 at HHE but most signallers keep you heading towards P2, so you get stuck outside!)

 

[Ianno87]

Almost, there's an issue where the 1HXX follow a TLK into HHE. Due the miminum time behind the TLK, so if thats late it has a knock on effect! (Doesn't help that 1HXX is signalled into P1 at HHE but most signallers keep you heading towards P2, so you get stuck outside!)

If you ever manage to write a Brighton Main Line timetable that doesn't rely on having a minimum headway somewhere, chances are you've missed some trains out!

 

[Minstral25]

Not gonna lie, I think the current timetable is far better, the arrangement they have now works well even with the reduction in direct Brighton services.

Agree - if the currently missing Southern Service to Brighton is reinstated after 2023 it would be a much better pattern with the Eastbourne's and Littlehampton's being separate trains and everything can be branded Southern.

 

[Hadders]

There are two evening peak extras in the current timetable between Kings Cross and Peterborough:

17:35 was 387 operated today
18:05 is 2x365

One bonus of the amended timetable is they are fast line all the way to Stevenage, rather than crossing to the slow at Woolmer Green.

My hunch to get the 18:05 home tonight paid off

 

[bramling]

There are two evening peak extras in the current timetable between Kings Cross and Peterborough:

17:35 was 387 operated today
18:05 is 2x365

One bonus of the amended timetable is they are fast line all the way to Stevenage, rather than crossing to the slow at Woolmer Green.

My hunch to get the 18:05 home tonight paid off

The 1805 is the only booked evening 365 service, there’s a corresponding up service in the morning.

 

[Hadders]

The 1805 is the only booked evening 365 service, there’s a corresponding up service in the morning.

Ah, tat explains it. I thought I'd read that both the evening peak extras were 365 operated but must've been mistaken.#

If this is the only work they've got I can see why they're going, sadly.

 

[Minstral25]

It’s all complex as there’s quite a few variables, not least what happens with ridership.

However binning off the 313/455 fleets and making Southern all-Electrostar does seem a very worthwhile objective, but it does leave quite a shortfall of units on GN. This could no doubt be covered by using Southern units and spare 700/0s in the short-term, but in the medium term it would be an issue.

Why the need to make Southern all Electrostar. Southern have bigger issue if they are forced to give up the 171's and need to replace them with a battery unit of some kind. Also with different types of Electrostars on Southern for different services already, Southern planning has to contend with compatibility issues.

Surely it would make more sense to operate just three types of unit north of the Core, that would be 387/700/717, especially with the plan to introduce ETCS digital railway. The less types to get working the easier that becomes and it is going to be difficult anyway. So my expectations are that 365's running on Great Northern days are numbered and more 387's will transfer from GatEx so GN is fully 387's (and 717's). There would presumably be unit savings if a single class was used for all services including peak extras.

 

[Chiltern006]

do 379s have ETCS?

 

[bramling]

Why the need to make Southern all Electrostar. Southern have bigger issue if they are forced to give up the 171's and need to replace them with a battery unit of some kind. Also with different types of Electrostars on Southern for different services already, Southern planning has to contend with compatibility issues.

Surely it would make more sense to operate just three types of unit north of the Core, that would be 387/700/717, especially with the plan to introduce ETCS digital railway. The less types to get working the easier that becomes and it is going to be difficult anyway. So my expectations are that 365's running on Great Northern days are numbered and more 387's will transfer from GatEx so GN is fully 387's (and 717's). There would presumably be unit savings if a single class was used for all services including peak extras.

I guess the answer depends on to what extent passenger numbers recover, and how worthwhile if is getting rid of the two remaining DC traction fleets.

*If* the latter is seen as worthwhile, and assuming any new build is off the menu for the time being, then there aren’t enough units to return to anything close to Dec 19 service levels. Uckfield would only further that.

Taking all that into account, the only way to top up the overall fleet size again is really the 365s, and they can’t go south of the river so it would have to be GN.

Obviously if some new build was to be on the table then it would completely change things.

I’m not sure there’s that much efficiency to be had from having a single class on GN. The Baldocks require 6 units and the Peterboroughs 11, not including the 6 387s which already served Peterborough. The fundamental difficulty is that a lot of trains are working towards London at the same time, so there’s only so much efficiency to be had.

 

[Energy]

do 379s have ETCS?

No but there are plans to fit them with it, along with the other electrostars.

 

[Fincra5]

do 379s have ETCS?

No but neither do GNs 387s... But I seems to be planned as an upgrade for all GTR Electrostars, Victoria for example is being made "Digital Ready"...

 

[Minstral25]

I guess the answer depends on to what extent passenger numbers recover, and how worthwhile if is getting rid of the two remaining DC traction fleets.

*If* the latter is seen as worthwhile, and assuming any new build is off the menu for the time being, then there aren’t enough units to return to anything close to Dec 19 service levels. Uckfield would only further that.

Taking all that into account, the only way to top up the overall fleet size again is really the 365s, and they can’t go south of the river so it would have to be GN.

Obviously if some new build was to be on the table then it would completely change things.

I’m not sure there’s that much efficiency to be had from having a single class on GN. The Baldocks require 6 units and the Peterboroughs 11, not including the 6 387s which already served Peterborough. The fundamental difficulty is that a lot of trains are working towards London at the same time, so there’s only so much efficiency to be had.

It is a big "if" but having a single class for a group of services must have a significant benefit in terms of training, maintenance, spare parts, and programming, which applies to GN as much as Southern. It is highly likely that there will be some reduction in services across GN/SN/TL, maybe even loss of GatEx completely to integrate with Southern services. I predict it won't be 40 or 50% cut, more likely 10 or 20% but like most on the forum I am guessing however we need to accept that it is not fully going back. The services that will most like reduce or disappear are peak only services, so likely Baldock and Peterborough extras will reduce or disappear. Add 6 units from C2C, perhaps a couple from GatEx and replace the Baldock's with extra 700's from Cambridge then maybe you have sorted GN services going forward.

Harsh on 365's but they would become surplus

 

[jon0844]

During the East Coast upgrade works, stock is all over the place. A lot of 700s are now 387 operated and vice versa.

 

[Ianno87]

I guess the answer depends on to what extent passenger numbers recover, and how worthwhile if is getting rid of the two remaining DC traction fleets.

*If* the latter is seen as worthwhile, and assuming any new build is off the menu for the time being, then there aren’t enough units to return to anything close to Dec 19 service levels. Uckfield would only further that.

Taking all that into account, the only way to top up the overall fleet size again is really the 365s, and they can’t go south of the river so it would have to be GN.

Well, there's an entire 379 fleet now going spare, plus the 6 x 387s from c2c that would give a standardised (ish) fleet and more than compensate size-wise for the 365s.

 

[physics34]

Another 2 fleets that might find themselves south of the river are the remaining unused and soon to be ex LM 319s, theyd be adequate to replace 455s also, and also their 350/2s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another 2 fleets that might find themselves south of the river are the remaining unused and soon to be ex LM 319s, theyd be adequate to replace 455s also, and also their 350/2s.

The LNR 319s are in a right state, so they'd need serious work doing on them. The heating doesn't work on half of them for a start - apparently that requires seats and floor out to fix which is why it's not been done.

 

[Fincra5]

Another 2 fleets that might find themselves south of the river are the remaining unused and soon to be ex LM 319s, theyd be adequate to replace 455s also, and also their 350/2s.

I can't see GTR taking the 319s back! 455s are in a better state than 319s (Golden Spanner for SNs 455s)... 350/2s depends on who fund any work to make DC... Still unlikely.

 

[D365]

Another 2 fleets that might find themselves south of the river are the remaining unused and soon to be ex LM 319s, theyd be adequate to replace 455s also, and also their 350/2s.

Unless any more 769s are ordered, the remaining 319s will be going for scrap.

(ROG use excepted)

 

[Minstral25]

Another 2 fleets that might find themselves south of the river are the remaining unused and soon to be ex LM 319s, theyd be adequate to replace 455s also, and also their 350/2s.

The 319's are only a couple of years younger than 455's - seem pointless to bring them over to replace them. However they could replace 10 years older 313's and at the same time create some 769's for Marshlink.

Class 350/2 have same issue as Class 379 coming south as they need fitting DC pick-ups and power systems, plus being Siemens units finding a Siemens depot with capacity to look after them - Three Bridges was designed to be just big enough for the 700's

 

[bramling]

Well, there's an entire 379 fleet now going spare, plus the 6 x 387s from c2c that would give a standardised (ish) fleet and more than compensate size-wise for the 365s.

The numbers don't quite add up to do that *and* ditch the 313/455 fleets, without quite a cut in services. *If* such a cut across the board is too much, then they will be significantly short even if they get all the Electrostars going.

 

[Ianno87]

The numbers don't quite add up to do that *and* ditch the 313/455 fleets, without quite a cut in services. *If* such a cut across the board is too much, then they will be significantly short even if they get all the Electrostars going.

The question is when growth returns. The 365s may not be in a fit state to return to service after storage (without costly work) if that's a few years down the line, and new build may well be more economical by that point.

 

[365 Networker]

Withdrawal has now been confirmed by Great Northern in Modern Railways:-
GTR to stand down ‘365s’ (keymodernrailways.com)

In May Govia Thameslink Railway is to withdraw its fleet of 21 Class 365 EMUs, used on Great Northern services out of King’s Cross.

GTR told Modern Railways the majority of peak-time additional services that use these trains are not operating while a reduced timetable is in operation, and the change reflects the lower numbers of people travelling and delivers better value for taxpayers.

When additional peak services are reintroduced, Class 387/2s spare from Gatwick Express duties while the airport station is being upgraded will be used on Great Northern services. GTR says this will deliver an improved environment through the use of modern, air-conditioned trains. In the longer-term, GTR says it will work with the Department for Transport to introduce additional trains as required, enabling the ‘387s’ to be returned to the Gatwick Express.

The article does say that GTR will 'work with the Department for Transport' to introduce additional trains once the Gatwick Express 387s need to be returned. So, I suppose that could mean 379s being introduced or (my preferred option), with the 365s being re-introduced.