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May 2021 Timetable Change

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Jamesrob637

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With what rolling stock? Doubled up Voyagers seems the way to go on the existing Covid pattern, which have loads of capacity.

Doubles from the end of this month seems logical, in preparation for some domestic travel from next month.
 
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Peter0124

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Some of the Avanti services are now on RTT, seems to only be showing Birmingham's at the minute. But judging by the ECS services it doesn't sound like theres much if any change to the frequency of March 29th, rather disappointed if true. Just need to wait till it fully uploads to RTT.

The only change seems to be that the xx:03 services to Birmingham seem to have been retimed to xx:59, with the xx:23 cancelled.

Will be disappointed if xx:10 to Glasgow remains, alongside no hourly London-Chester services and no 1tp2h Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow services (all showing as going to Blackpool apart from the 17:43)


EDIT - On Saturdays, it's showing ECS from Glasgow Central to work the via Birmingham services so hopefully the Blackpool ones are just a partial copy and paste of March 29th and the Glasgow route actually restarts.
 
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g22

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I like the 2232 St Pancras to Sheffield where it is. Might be more useful for some evening events than half an hour earlier.

Disappointed they can only manage an 11 minute later Nottingham last departure south at 2140.

Overall though it is very impressive. Much earlier trains North to Sheffield and Nottingham in the morning as well.
 
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craigybagel

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The only time you'll get above 75 is between North Staffs Jn and Derby where you will get between 80 and 90 if you get a clear run, and between Derby and Long Eaton where you should get 100 (158s get 90, I haven't worked a 170 anywhere but Notts - Worksop yet).

156 should be fine I would think and 158s will definitely be fine.

The existing timings are for very asthmatic 153s and a 156 or 158 will wait time all over the place.
Cheers, I don't know the East Midlands that well so I always get a bit confused about which station is where and the distances between! Knew there wasn't a hope with the station stops between Crewe and Stoke though and that the North Staffs line is only 70 anyway.
Current times Crewe to Derby are based on 153's operating the route, they have slowly worsened over the years, as did the 153's themsleves - huffing, puffing and wheezing up to Longton from Stoke and to Blythe Bridge from Uttoxeter. When a 158 operates the current service (and on special days a Meridian) they are waiting for time at numerous stations. Regardless of unit, it is quite possible to arrive outside Derby a few minutes early. Taking a few minutes out should not be a problem, and the planners will have done their calculations.
As I've commented on the TfW threads however, the ex EMR 153s are like Ferraris compared to the ones coming from other TOCs! Noticeably better mechanically then anyone elses, they're as much a pleasure to drive as a 153 can be.
 

Watershed

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Only 5 trips shown on the Lincoln to Doncaster route
There's actually a reduction in EMR services at Doncaster, as the early Leeds-London via Doncaster service (1C15) doesn't run any more. In fairness, it's more of an ECS that happens to run in passenger service (as far as Sheffield, that is).

As for the Joint Line services at Doncaster, they remain as pointlessly timed as ever. Taking the southbound departures, 09:47, 12:47, 14:54, 18:47 and 20:49, I think just about the only praise that can be given is that the services all run through to Peterborough, and that they're approximately all xx47 departures.

There's no consistency whatsoever to the spacing of departures (three hour gap, then two hours, then four hours, then two?!), there are no arrivals or departures until well past 9am, and there's a massive gap around the evening "peak". So it's completely useless for any kind of conventional 9-5 commute.

I'm sure there are perfectly good operational and other reasons why all this is the case, but you have to wonder whether it's even worth spending the resources to serve Doncaster on a 5tpd basis if it's going to be such a useless service.

Arguably they'd be better off running the minimum sustainable level of service (so as to avoid loss of route knowledge), using the freed-up crews and units for better purposes (e.g. strengthening or peak extras) until such time as they can rustle up an hourly service.
 

TheBigD

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There's actually a reduction in EMR services at Doncaster, as the early Leeds-London via Doncaster service (1C15) doesn't run any more. In fairness, it's more of an ECS that happens to run in passenger service (as far as Sheffield, that is).

As for the Joint Line services at Doncaster, they remain as pointlessly timed as ever. Taking the southbound departures, 09:47, 12:47, 14:54, 18:47 and 20:49, I think just about the only praise that can be given is that the services all run through to Peterborough, and that they're approximately all xx47 departures.

There's no consistency whatsoever to the spacing of departures (three hour gap, then two hours, then four hours, then two?!), there are no arrivals or departures until well past 9am, and there's a massive gap around the evening "peak". So it's completely useless for any kind of conventional 9-5 commute.

I'm sure there are perfectly good operational and other reasons why all this is the case, but you have to wonder whether it's even worth spending the resources to serve Doncaster on a 5tpd basis if it's going to be such a useless service.

Arguably they'd be better off running the minimum sustainable level of service (so as to avoid loss of route knowledge), using the freed-up crews and units for better purposes (e.g. strengthening or peak extras) until such time as they can rustle up an hourly service.
Without checking I'm pretty sure that an hourly service (and 5 Sunday trains) is planned at some point. Same with the Lincoln to Grimsby route. Guessing it will happen once EMR gets all its 170s etc.
 

LowLevel

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Doncaster goes hourly in the future. May is just the first stage of the big changes.
 

Watershed

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Without checking I'm pretty sure that an hourly service (and 5 Sunday trains) is planned at some point. Same with the Lincoln to Grimsby route. Guessing it will happen once EMR gets all its 170s etc.
Doncaster goes hourly in the future. May is just the first stage of the big changes.
Yes, I'm well aware. I'm just questioning whether there is any point in running 5tpd to Doncaster when there isn't yet the ability to deliver a usable service. Surely it would be better to use the resources on something more pressing...
 

HamworthyGoods

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Yes, I'm well aware. I'm just questioning whether there is any point in running 5tpd to Doncaster when there isn't yet the ability to deliver a usable service. Surely it would be better to use the resources on something more pressing...

yes there is a point running them, it’s operational reasons!

How else do you propose keeping up the existing traincrew’s route knowledge if you don’t run any services on that stretch?

you will probably find that 5 trains per day is the minimum to achieve that hence it being that number.
 

TheBigD

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yes there is a point running them, it’s operational reasons!

How else do you propose keeping up the existing traincrew’s route knowledge if you don’t run any services on that stretch?

you will probably find that 5 trains per day is the minimum to achieve that hence it being that number.
The current service on the Lincolnshire routes* is a legacy from Regional Railways Central back in the 1990's when it was created to be resourced by just 6 x 153 units. The 5 trips Lincoln to Doncaster are all that could be run with those resources. The unit doing the trips when it was not required for the school traffic to Sleaford in the am/pm and the commuter traffic from Sleaford to Lincoln. The service has remained largely unchanged until now.

* Peterborough to Lincoln
Lincoln to Doncaster
Newark NG - Lincoln - Grimsby
 

Starmill

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The existing Lincoln to Doncaster service does have a role to play, it's just not a very big one. It provides a handful of decent opportunities for faster trips between Lincoln and West Yorkshire or Hull, and it gives some good long-distance connections, such as the 0910 from Lincoln connects with a service to Edinburgh. If you look at the times the trains arrive and leave Lincoln you can also see how they're set up for Lincoln city centre shoppers and homeward commuters quite nicely, from Gainsborough and Saxilby.
 

43074

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Just knocked this up in excel to show part of the new MML timetable currently on RTT and the connections at Kettering with the Corby services. Northbound seems very good with around 5 mins while southbound it is around 12 mins due to slotting in behind the Sheffield's as they pass Kettering around the same time. The platform numbers at St Pancras suggests that the 360s will have sole use of platform 1.
Southbound the gap between the XX:00 from Sheffield and the XX:11 from Corby is very tight at Wellingborough too, as the Corby crosses to the fast line only a minute or two after the Sheffield passes through. If the Sheffield is late (which happens pretty frequently if the XC in front as far as Derby is delayed) the whole timetable on that side of hour will also run late!

Overall though very positive change on EMR, particularly the improvements to early and late services. The first fast train from Leicester to London becomes the 04:51, three and a half hours before the current first non stop at 08:16, whilst the three northbound intercity departures from Leicester before 07:00 are also very welcome.

Main change I would make
1F85 22:32 St Pancras to Sheffield I'd run half hour earlier departing 22:05 to give a better balance in the evenings post 21:30 departing St Pancras, 05 for Sheffield and 35 for Nottingham.

22:05, 22:35 and 23:05 also to call at Bedford, 23:35 should really call at Bedford and Wellingborough for last connections.

Also surprised about some open stops at stations north of Bedford after midnight. East Coast make all theirs set down only.

Last Up Sheffield should really call Wellingborough, Bedford and (maybe) Luton Stations (maybe set down) rather than non-stop from Kettering for last up connections really.

First Up from Derby should really call at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton Stations too
Why? If there are EMR electrics to provide the connections then Intercity trains don't need to stop south of Kettering at those times at all. The only cases where there isn't is the first Derby to London and the last Sheffield to London, but even if they did call they would only be useful to a tiny handful of people.
 
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Watershed

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How else do you propose keeping up the existing traincrew’s route knowledge if you don’t run any services on that stretch?

you will probably find that 5 trains per day is the minimum to achieve that hence it being that number.
It's just Lincoln depot that signs Doncaster. I don't have exact establishment numbers to hand but I would be surprised if much more than 1tpd were needed to keep up route knowledge.
 

The Planner

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Some of the Avanti services are now on RTT, seems to only be showing Birmingham's at the minute. But judging by the ECS services it doesn't sound like theres much if any change to the frequency of March 29th, rather disappointed if true. Just need to wait till it fully uploads to RTT.

The only change seems to be that the xx:03 services to Birmingham seem to have been retimed to xx:59, with the xx:23 cancelled.

Will be disappointed if xx:10 to Glasgow remains, alongside no hourly London-Chester services and no 1tp2h Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow services (all showing as going to Blackpool apart from the 17:43)


EDIT - On Saturdays, it's showing ECS from Glasgow Central to work the via Birmingham services so hopefully the Blackpool ones are just a partial copy and paste of March 29th and the Glasgow route actually restarts.
It will be September before Avanti ramp up again, unless there is such an increase in demand over summer, or the DfT instruct them to.
 

bunnahabhain

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Goodness, I note that the 0717 Derby to Sheffield is retimed to 0659 and loses its Chesterfield call, meaning it now runs fast from Belper to Dronfield. I hope nobody regularly uses the one train a day each way between Belper and Chesterfield!
Should be a 4 car 158 which then forms the 0740
It's just Lincoln depot that signs Doncaster. I don't have exact establishment numbers to hand but I would be surprised if much more than 1tpd were needed to keep up route knowledge.
Approx 30, so one train per day would be more than enough, previously they only had 7 turns to Skegness a week and maintained competency on that route, they've since lost that route (for now).
 

Jamesrob637

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It will be September before Avanti ramp up again, unless there is such an increase in demand over summer, or the DfT instruct them to.

Does that mean lots of furlough over summer for Avanti? (Though if they do sell a fair few tickets over the summer, at least they can safely contribute their 10%/20%/20% over July/August/September)
 

ChrisC

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Mostly seems to be good news concerning EMR regional service improvements. Does anyone have any information about when the full timetable is to be restored on Northern services between Sheffield and Worksop. Currently when travelling from the Mansfield area to anywhere in the North via Sheffield there is a 52 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. If returning in the evening it’s even worse because the train from Sheffield arrives in Worksop 3 minutes after the Nottingham train has departed meaning a 57 minute wait.
 
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The Planner

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Does that mean lots of furlough over summer for Avanti? (Though if they do sell a fair few tickets over the summer, at least they can safely contribute their 10%/20%/20% over July/August/September)
No idea, that is in Avanti's domain.
 

Grimsby town

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Great to finally see a clock face and direct Nottingham service on the Grimsby to Lincoln line. The later services are also a big plus to allow people to stay for food / drinks in Lincoln / Cleethorpes which should hopefully boost both economies. The Sunday service is also improved with the first service travelling from Nottingham at around 10, rather than 3 currently, which makes day trips to Cleethorpes possible.

Unfortunately, there are still issues that the timetable hasn't solved. Connections are pretty awful throughout. As already mentioned, the service does not connect well with London trains at Lincoln. Another glaring connection issue is at Barnetby where people travelling to from Lincoln from Scunthorpe just miss the connection in both directions so have 50 minute waits. I wonder if extending the Doncaster to Scunthorpe stopper to Barnetby could rectify this. It would only leave a 5 minute turnaround at either end though if using 2 units. I doubt retiming of the East Midlands service will ever happen with the Newark flat crossing so it might just be something we have to live with.

Finally, it's a bit disappointing that calls at Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates couldn't have been added to the Lincoln service at peak times and during the late evening. Perhaps this could be added in the future. After all, it wouldn't be a lincolnshire railway if there wasn't something to complain about. Still it really is a welcome improvement.
 

TheBigD

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Agreed @Grimsby town.
Lincolnshire does pretty well from the May timetable changes. Once the full changes come in (December?) both the Lincoln-Doncaster and Lincoln-Grimsby will have their hourly services. Just a shame that no Sunday service is planned for the Lincoln-Sleaford-Peterborough line.
 

dk1

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It would appear that there is finally an hourly service along the Joint Line between Peterborough and Lincoln. Sadly some 2 hour gaps on Saturdays and no Sunday service.

Time vary (a lot!) but generally around xx35 from Lincoln (0612 to 1936, then 2137(SX)) and around xx20 from Peterborough (0632 to 1926, then 2104, and 2310(SX) which has the honour of being booked via the Sleaford avoider!)

There's an extra 2008 Norwich to Nottingham.

And there's a odd (SX) 2012 Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester all stops taking 2hr14m!

Only 5 trips shown on the Lincoln to Doncaster route.
That’s the latest Norwich-Peterborough service (apart from Sundays) that I have ever known. Slightly later at 20:12 Saturdays. Has always been before 19:00. The current 18:57 Norwich-Nottingham will now run through to Sheffield.
 

TheBigD

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That’s the latest Norwich-Peterborough service (apart from Sundays) that I have ever known. Slightly later at 20:12 Saturdays. Has always been before 19:00. The current 18:57 Norwich-Nottingham will now run through to Sheffield.

On a less positive note, still a 3 hour gap on Sundays between the 1056 & 1347 departures ex Norwich.
 

dk1

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On a less positive note, still a 3 hour gap on Sundays between the 1056 & 1347 departures ex Norwich.
The Sunday service has always been strange. Summer Sunday dated earlier trains when there is all year round demand. Might relate to crewing agreements but definitely odd.
 

TheBigD

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The Sunday service has always been strange. Summer Sunday dated earlier trains when there is all year round demand. Might relate to crewing agreements but definitely odd.

A hangover from Central Trains Sunday crewing problems. There was a 1250 departure (ECS and crewed from Cambridge) until around 2006 when it was withdrawn as central Trains struggled to resource (especially drivers turns) Sundays.
 

Class 170101

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Why? If there are EMR electrics to provide the connections then Intercity trains don't need to stop south of Kettering at those times at all. The only cases where there isn't is the first Derby to London and the last Sheffield to London, but even if they did call they would only be useful to a tiny handful of people.

Stopping at Bedford for last connections off Thameslink services in the evening and only hourly Corby service from 23:00 not half hourly hence the extra stops in Intercity services.
 

dk1

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A hangover from Central Trains Sunday crewing problems. There was a 1250 departure (ECS and crewed from Cambridge) until around 2006 when it was withdrawn as central Trains struggled to resource (especially drivers turns) Sundays.
Who could forget those famous barbecue days lol.
 

Galaxy

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Sadly Scunthorpe doesn't with the reduction to every two hours from Northern.

Thankfully TPE go back to hourly.
 

matt

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Some of the Avanti Class 9 (via West Midlands) are now showing
 

PHILIPE

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TFW now showing in RTT but don't rely on it being the final edition which will be shown later in Journey Planners as it seems the it is the December Timetable brought forward. There are some Q ECS on the Borderlands Line which would be to accommodate the 230s..
 
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