Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[urbophile]

When is it ever hot enough for air-conditioning in Merseyside?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a problem with the air conditioning on the new units? From the photos it looks as though there are no opening windows on the 777s

I've not heard of one.

When is it ever hot enough for air-conditioning in Merseyside?

It does happen, but another benefit is making the environment less damp when it's tipping down.

 

[Pacef8]

And the new trains do not have any windows to open . Whether the 777 squeal around corners we will not know for a lot longer.

 

[Skie]

When is it ever hot enough for air-conditioning in Merseyside?

Erm, every Summer?

Trains are just long metal and glass tubes, it doesn’t take much sun to make them warm enough to be uncomfortable.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Are the 777's being tested as 8 car formations yet?

Yes they have been. An 8 car has been spotted at Hightown on test.

Think it's safe to say that Merseysiders won't enjoy rail air-conditioning this summer meaning the roads could be very busy if it's hot.

I take it you have never ridden on the Merseyrail network at all, let alone during the summer? Much more importantly, the summer weekends!

 

[Jamesrob637]

I take it you have never ridden on the Merseyrail network at all, let alone during the summer? Much more importantly, the summer weekends!

Loads! The tunnel section is particularly painful on the ears! I can't wait for the 777s to enter squadron service. To be fair I think they were only meant to be in service last year even pre-COVID.

 

[Ribbleman]

One of the tests that has been successfully performed at Kirkdale was to lift off one of the roof mounted air conditioning modules and to replace it, just to see if the operation presented any problems and to time how long it would take.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they have steering bogies to avoid the squealing/track wear on the Loop, or just conventional ones? I recall the Jacobs bogies on FLIRTs etc are generally longer than a traditional bogie?

 

[Pacef8]

The trains are shorter to compensate for this problem .

 

[TRAX]

Do they have steering bogies to avoid the squealing/track wear on the Loop, or just conventional ones? I recall the Jacobs bogies on FLIRTs etc are generally longer than a traditional bogie?

Steering bogies ? All train bogies (except on some trams) pivot in relation to the body, so do you mean radial steering bogies with independent pivoting axles as on the Class 66 ? If so, they don’t.

Jacobs bogies, on Flirts and elsewhere, are also conventional pivoting bogies with fixed axles.

But I’m not sure I understood your two points correctly, please accept my apologies if I didn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I did mean individually steering axles due to the tightness of the Loop and Jacobs bogies tending to be longer than normal ones due to the need to bridge two vehicles.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If they're in Walton sidings, they (or at least the tops of them) would be visible on the LHS on any* train (travel restrictions apply) leaving WBQ - the WCML is quite a bit higher than Walton sidings, so you get a decent view across the sidings. *Exceptions being any TfW services routed via Walton Jn, in which cased they'd be on the RHS - not sure whether any are going this way during the reduced timetable.

For what it's worth, Walton Sidings are on the original alignment of the Grand Junction Railway between Acton Grange and Bank Quay.
The current WCML was diverted to run at a higher level to the west during the construction of the Manchester Ship Canal (which paid for the LNWR diversion).
The Slow/Chester lines still use part of the old alignment over the GJR Twelve Arches Mersey bridge before their own diversion up to the MSC bridge.

 

[TrainSpotter04]

Has there been any news on the 777s? I know there is no space but, I was told there are 7 units in calais waiting?

 

[MR-507508]

Is there any development on the class 777 rollout/delivery/testing/training?
In particular, I heard the battery trials were planned to start around now-does this mean the delivery of one or more 777s (with batteries fitted) in the coming weeks?

 

[Vespa]

Is there any development on the class 777 rollout/delivery/testing/training?
In particular, I heard the battery trials were planned to start around now-does this mean the delivery of one or more 777s (with batteries fitted) in the coming weeks?

Let me look at the tea leaves in my cup and my horoscope.......

I see ... Something yellow and black and the number 777001 and the year.....2056 through the haze and fog of time ..... I see introduction into public service


Your guess is as good as mine

 

[Ribbleman]

Is there any development on the class 777 rollout/delivery/testing/training?
In particular, I heard the battery trials were planned to start around now-does this mean the delivery of one or more 777s (with batteries fitted) in the coming weeks?

The last I heard, about 5 weeks ago, was that a battery fitted unit was expected to arrive at Kirkdale some time in April. It will be temporarily equipped with a 138kWh battery borrowed from one of the units that Stadler are building for TfW, together with a water/glycol cooling system. This is a smaller battery than the size that it is planned will eventually be fitted under each driving car of a 777 but will suffice to prove or otherwise the concept of running the units beyond the limits of the 3rd rail. It is thought that the 138kWh battery will enable at least 10 miles to be covered before recharging, a process expected to take 15 minutes. The intention initially is to test run the unit within the Merseyrail system but with the pick-up shoes lifted. Then, should the battery run down unexpectedly early, lowering the shoes will enable recharging. If the trial is a success then it will be extended to run the train for short distances beyond the 3rd rail.
Batteries are expensive items, requiring replacement from time to time, so an economic case will need to be made to justify purchase and installation, even if they are a technical success.

 

[MR-507508]

The last I heard, about 5 weeks ago, was that a battery fitted unit was expected to arrive at Kirkdale some time in April. It will be temporarily equipped with a 138kWh battery borrowed from one of the units that Stadler are building for TfW, together with a water/glycol cooling system. This is a smaller battery than the size that it is planned will eventually be fitted under each driving car of a 777 but will suffice to prove or otherwise the concept of running the units beyond the limits of the 3rd rail. It is thought that the 138kWh battery will enable at least 10 miles to be covered before recharging, a process expected to take 15 minutes. The intention initially is to test run the unit within the Merseyrail system but with the pick-up shoes lifted. Then, should the battery run down unexpectedly early, lowering the shoes will enable recharging. If the trial is a success then it will be extended to run the train for short distances beyond the 3rd rail.
Batteries are expensive items, requiring replacement from time to time, so an economic case will need to be made to justify purchase and installation, even if they are a technical success.

Thank you for the detailed update. I thought one was due for battery trials this month.
Good that things are still progressing, obviously with delay due to Covid related issues.

 

[Roger B]

The last I heard, about 5 weeks ago, was that a battery fitted unit was expected to arrive at Kirkdale some time in April. It will be temporarily equipped with a 138kWh battery borrowed from one of the units that Stadler are building for TfW, together with a water/glycol cooling system. This is a smaller battery than the size that it is planned will eventually be fitted under each driving car of a 777 but will suffice to prove or otherwise the concept of running the units beyond the limits of the 3rd rail. It is thought that the 138kWh battery will enable at least 10 miles to be covered before recharging, a process expected to take 15 minutes. The intention initially is to test run the unit within the Merseyrail system but with the pick-up shoes lifted. Then, should the battery run down unexpectedly early, lowering the shoes will enable recharging. If the trial is a success then it will be extended to run the train for short distances beyond the 3rd rail.
Batteries are expensive items, requiring replacement from time to time, so an economic case will need to be made to justify purchase and installation, even if they are a technical success.

And batteries are also questionable from an environmental perspective, in that mining and transport of raw materials, manufacture, disposal, and need for periodic replacement, all have significant adverse impacts in terms of greenhouse emissions, and disposal of toxic substances. Still better than burning hydrocarbons, but nevertheless, some big challenges to be overcome. Just saying they (and battery powered road vehicles) are not yet the environmental panacea perceived by significant swathes of the media and populace!

 

[Techniquest]

Surely the technology to supply a train with power to the batteries via solar power must be good enough by now? It doesn't even have to be on the train, just at charging points at key stations, with excess power returned/sold to the grid?

It's worth noting that the way some people are making it sound, the batteries will need replacing very regularly. I cannot imagine that is actually the case, for batteries that will not be intensively used. I am curious how long the average lifespan of the sort of batteries fitted to trains could be expected to be.

Even with just (say) an hourly extension down to Wrexham, surely that would not destroy the lifespan of the average battery too much? I'll openly put my hands up and confess I know very little about the wonders of battery technology, so I am genuinely interested.

 

[Skie]

Better to have grid connected charging sections. Can still use a renewable source by buying electricity from a supplier of it, but you can also guarantee the voltage required all the time.

As to how long they last: a Tesla seems to average 1% range loss per 15k miles. Sounds bad at first but most battery extensions are only targeting ~20 mile journeys right now, so the batteries could last a fair old time. Batteries can be recycled, and as more vehicles use them the recycling costs come down.

 

[Techniquest]

Better to have grid connected charging sections. Can still use a renewable source by buying electricity from a supplier of it, but you can also guarantee the voltage required all the time.

As to how long they last: a Tesla seems to average 1% range loss per 15k miles. Sounds bad at first but most battery extensions are only targeting ~20 mile journeys right now, so the batteries could last a fair old time. Batteries can be recycled, and as more vehicles use them the recycling costs come down.

Not too bad then, fingers crossed this means good things are on the way. Certainly sounds like things are good enough for a rail application

 

[Skie]

Not too bad then, fingers crossed this means good things are on the way. Certainly sounds like things are good enough for a rail application

I should really add that Tesla by far have the best battery of any electric vehicle, cooling and motor package. Other manufacturers are a bit behind them in at least 2 of the 3 components.

But what they're doing isnt a secret, and it's still not as good as it can be, so I'm sure the rail industry will find a way to make it work (and make it cost a fortune...).

 

[superkev]

I should really add that Tesla by far have the best battery of any electric vehicle, cooling and motor package. Other manufacturers are a bit behind them in at least 2 of the 3 components.

But what they're doing isnt a secret, and it's still not as good as it can be, so I'm sure the rail industry will find a way to make it work (and make it cost a fortune...).

Hmm. Pity Elon Musk doesn't go into the train buisiness. Seems to be into many other things. Wish the raikway had someone with his drive and get things done mantra. K

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And batteries are also questionable from an environmental perspective, in that mining and transport of raw materials, manufacture, disposal, and need for periodic replacement, all have significant adverse impacts in terms of greenhouse emissions, and disposal of toxic substances. Still better than burning hydrocarbons, but nevertheless, some big challenges to be overcome. Just saying they (and battery powered road vehicles) are not yet the environmental panacea perceived by significant swathes of the media and populace!

Indeed like our miraculous reduction in coal fired generation is in part achieved by using interconnectors to import CO2 from Europe or offshore manufacturing to coal centric China. That said its easier to optimise batteries for rail use as the duty cycle is very predictable due to fixed routes and timetables and integrating them as part of an existing EMU means they have high powered charger on board already.

 

[paddyb6]

The last I heard, about 5 weeks ago, was that a battery fitted unit was expected to arrive at Kirkdale some time in April. It will be temporarily equipped with a 138kWh battery borrowed from one of the units that Stadler are building for TfW, together with a water/glycol cooling system. This is a smaller battery than the size that it is planned will eventually be fitted under each driving car of a 777 but will suffice to prove or otherwise the concept of running the units beyond the limits of the 3rd rail. It is thought that the 138kWh battery will enable at least 10 miles to be covered before recharging, a process expected to take 15 minutes. The intention initially is to test run the unit within the Merseyrail system but with the pick-up shoes lifted. Then, should the battery run down unexpectedly early, lowering the shoes will enable recharging. If the trial is a success then it will be extended to run the train for short distances beyond the 3rd rail.
Batteries are expensive items, requiring replacement from time to time, so an economic case will need to be made to justify purchase and installation, even if they are a technical success.

Any ideas which set this will be? Something like 020 by this stage? Also any ideas if it is still on course for arrival in April?
Cheers

 

[Ribbleman]

Any ideas which set this will be? Something like 020 by this stage? Also any ideas if it is still on course for arrival in April?
Cheers

Sorry, but I’ve no idea which set will be battery equipped, other than it will be one of the Swiss built examples. Covid has played havoc with the testing schedule and even revised plans have proved impossible to adhere to. If I hear anything further I’ll post details.

 

[paddyb6]

Sorry, but I’ve no idea which set will be battery equipped, other than it will be one of the Swiss built examples. Covid has played havoc with the testing schedule and even revised plans have proved impossible to adhere to. If I hear anything further I’ll post details.

Yeah that's understandable, thanks for the info nonetheless! Hope testing is progressing well despite the challenges faced

 

[palmersears]

Merseyrail looking for somebody to do some shuffling of 777s:

Rolling Stock Class 777 Moves

procontract.due-north.com

Due to a capacity issue on the Merseyrail Electric Network there will be a requirement to move a number of the class 777 units to locations outside of the network. The class 777 units are Electric Multiple units at a length of 65m and consist of 4 cars units operated by means of a 750dc 3rd rail. The units will have to be hauled over non-3rd rail electrified lines. The number of moves required is unknown at present but it is expected movement from the network will need to commence during the first week in June. The regularity of the required moves will depend upon the number of units delivered to the UK and capacity of the Merseyrail network at the time.

 

[DJH1971]

Merseyrail looking for somebody to do some shuffling of 777s:

Rolling Stock Class 777 Moves

procontract.due-north.com

Said this a few times, but why don't they put them in MoD sites until there is a clearer plan regarding driver training and service entry?

 

[Ribbleman]

Said this a few times, but why don't they put them in MoD sites until there is a clearer plan regarding driver training and service entry?

They have to come to Kirkdale for initial inspection, so sending them on to what is said to be a secured site at Warrington is rather nearer and presumably cheaper than using Longtown. In fact, whoever delivers a set or sets to Kirkdale could perhaps take away one or two others that have passed inspection on the same trip.