When was the final cull of sleeper services down to their current scope?

[ainsworth74]

Just wanted to say thank you all for your comments, makes for very interesting reading! I still feel like there's probably quite an interesting book to be made out of the history of sleeper services in the UK.

The Plymouth - Edinburgh sleeper also picked up at Cheltenham (not shown on the OP's timetable) as I used it once in the 1980s when living in Gloucester and attending a conference in Stirling.

Whilst I did omit some calls for the sake of clarity (and to save time!) Cheltenham isn't shown as a call in my 1989 GBTT and it was non-stop between Bristol Parkway and Birmingham New Street.

 

[geoffk]

Just wanted to say thank you all for your comments, makes for very interesting reading! I still feel like there's probably quite an interesting book to be made out of the history of sleeper services in the UK.



Whilst I did omit some calls for the sake of clarity (and to save time!) Cheltenham isn't shown as a call in my 1989 GBTT and it was non-stop between Bristol Parkway and Birmingham New Street.

Didn't know that. My trip was in 1981, according to my photograph lists.

 

[CW2]

Was there not also a proposal to run sleeper services through the Channel Tunnel? Didn't that get sufficiently far advanced that a set of coaches was built? I think they were called Nightstar and eventually sold to Canada without ever running in service in the UK.

Ah, now there's a story to be told.

There were plans for through overnight services from (amongst others) Plymouth and Swansea through the Channel Tunnel to various locations on the Continent. A separate fleet of class 37s was overhauled specifically for these services, and a number of generator cars built. The trains were to be marshalled 37+generator car+37, to avoid complicated run round moves at Dollands Moor(where a class 92 would take over).
Some time before introduction, they looked more closely at the likely passenger loadings. They found that the original market research was slightly flawed. Included in the market for Plymouth were all naval personnel departing Plymouth on naval vessels, and all passengers on ferries to Spain.Included in Swansea's figures were all passengers travelling to Ireland! It rapidly became apparent that the entire investment was a huge waste of money, and so the plans were quietly abandoned and the stock sold off.
EPS earned some money for a while by hiring out their shiny new(ish) 37/6s to DRS. This was a nice little earner for them. Eventually DRS put in an offer to buy the fleet, which cash-strapped EPS accepted. Then the Government stepped in and pointed out that while the locos were owned by EPS, the funding for their refurbishment had come from the Government, and there was a clause in their original contract which meant all the funds of the sale reverted to the Government. So EPS went from having a fleet of 37s and a steady income from hiring them out to having no 37s and no hire income either!
It is a real pity the Nightstar services never materialised. What fun they would have been. In the terms of this thread, they were culled before they ever started.

 

[Horizon22]

Generally on the wider sleeper topic, I'd have thought that excepting London - Penzance / Highlands, the journey time for a train in this country means that Sleepers to other destinations would have to be artificially slow if it is to be a "socially acceptable" sleeper (for instance 2300-0600)? Indeed the Night Riviera already is slower than a day-time service. We could have more cross-country sleepers of course - my mum took one from Exeter back to Scotland in the 1980s - which she describes as a somewhat terrifying experience with various "sorts" on the train! But I suppose the demand isn't there like it is to/from London and the airports in London.

Presumably as speeds increased across the network, it then became prohibitively expensive and no doubt the airline industry provided more economic and quicker options.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Generally on the wider sleeper topic, I'd have thought that excepting London - Penzance / Highlands, the journey time for a train in this country means that Sleepers to other destinations would have to be artificially slow if it is to be a "socially acceptable" sleeper (for instance 2300-0600)? Indeed the Night Riviera already is slower than a day-time service. We could have more cross-country sleepers of course - my mum took one from Exeter back to Scotland in the 1980s - which she describes as a somewhat terrifying experience with various "sorts" on the train! But I suppose the demand isn't there like it is to/from London and the airports in London.

Presumably as speeds increased across the network, it then became prohibitively expensive and no doubt the airline industry provided more economic and quicker options.

For comfort sleeper trains have been timed at 80mph max for as long as I can remember, plus they tend to be heavier than daytime trains, often more leisurely station dwells which might include an allowance for (un)loading van traffic. These combined make quite a difference to the end to end running times and often there would also be a timetable allowance for single line working on at least one section of route.

 

[Horizon22]

For comfort sleeper trains have been timed at 80mph max for as long as I can remember, plus they tend to be heavier than daytime trains, often more leisurely station dwells which might include an allowance for (un)loading van traffic. These combined make quite a difference to the end to end running times and often there would also be a timetable allowance for single line working on at least one section of route.

Yeah all makes perfect sense of course and they do run when engineering works are taking place hence the allowances for time. The Night Riviera is 75mph max. But for someone looking to make use of A-B that isn't a leisure traveller, it is a drawback in terms of the time saving. Although if you're travelling overnight it doesn't matter so much.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I have a couple of sleeper related questions which I am sure some of you will be able to respond to:
1. Fort William was a very late addition to the Motorail network and it only ran for a few years in the immediate pre Caledonian Sleeper service model era. Can anybody advise what years it actually ran and whether by then it would be sleepers only or was it still conveying seated accommodation? A move south of the border severely curtailed my West Highland knowledge after 1986.
2. The provision of seated accommodation by Stagecoach between Aberdeen and London followed the general withdrawal of seats at least from Anglo Scottish overnight trains. I don't think it lasted very long, one or perhaps two years. Again, can anybody advise what years it actually ran?

 

[JonathanH]

2. The provision of seated accommodation by Stagecoach between Aberdeen and London followed the general withdrawal of seats at least from Anglo Scottish overnight trains. I don't think it lasted very long, one or perhaps two years. Again, can anybody advise what years it actually ran?

Some interesting stuff about them here.

1992 Stagecoach Rail Mk2 sleeper service carriages

I was flicking through an old 'Rail' magazine from the mid-late '90s the other day and i came across an article which mentioned Stagecoach's first venture in to train operations back in 1992. To sum it up, BR decided to stop running seated carriages on a particular overnight sleeper service (can'...

www.rmweb.co.uk

Too much to copy but the relevant coaches appear to have run in Stagecoach colours between May 1992 and November 1992, then repainted back to Intercity colours, the service ceasing on 3 October 1993. The contract changed from the September 1992 timetable change.

The poster on RMWeb, 'mjkerr' writes:

However, I was one of the Directors and founder of Stagecoach Rail Limited, so can supply a lot more info (now that the company has ceased trading!)

The project was put together with just six weeks from BR announcing the seats would be withdrawn from the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers

BR refused to retain two coaches on the Inverness sleepers, but agreed to two coaches on the Aberdeen sleeper

Stagecoach RAIL operated a coach between Inverness and Edinburgh, plus a catering lorry between Perth and Edinburgh, all of these carried Stagecoach RAIL branding (I have a photo of one of the two coaches somewhere)

The initial issue was the lack of catering and hot water supply, which resulted in one toilet being removed from each coach (hence the dispute once the service ceased)

The six coaches chosen had just received or were due overhaul, one arrived just in time

The coaches were designated X and Y, however preference was given to Coach X (due to low passenger numbers) to the better of the two coaches

The staff area was setup in Coach Y

At busy times (and yes this did happen) the staff area would then be reduced from Coach Y and some of the equipment placed into Coach X

There is also some interesting information about formations in the thread written by 'Flood'

Seeing as Steve W gave the stock for two rakes I'm guessing that you want to know what each of the numbers are:

90xxx+96155+96193+96159+92946+6210+6201+10709+10555+10723+6702+10516+10675+10536+10711+10714+10520

90xxx+96164+96189+96110+92901+6232+6202+10697+10506+10691+6704+10515+10688+10731+10562+10542+10663

96155, 96193 and 96159 from the first rake and 96164, 96189 and 96110 from the second rake are Motorail GUVs. Virtually all were in InterCity livery by 1992. They had all been fitted with either B5 bogies or Commonwealth bogies around 1987-1989.

92946 and 92901 are BGs in InterCity livery and with B4 bogies.

The 62xx series coaches are the Stagecoach ones.

6702 and 6704 are Sleeper Reception Cars (or lounge cars, RLO). Very similar externally to a Buffet Open First they were Mk2F First Open coaches with the left hand toilet window and two furthest left hand windows on the toilet side plated over for a pantry area and microwave oven. All were in InterCity livery. The interiors were altered by having loose chairs around smaller tables. Three chairs per table on the toilet window side, two chairs per table on the other. Curtains were provided for the windows so the whole interior could be blanked out on the model if required.

The remaining nine coaches on each rake are sleepers. Those between 10500 and 10619 had a pantry so had two whitened windows on the narrow window side (the single window nearest to the door at each end). Those numbered 10646 to 10732 did not have a pantry so only the far left hand window on the narrow window side was whitened. All the sleepers in daily service were in InterCity livery.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Thanks Jonathan H for providing comprehensive coverage on this subject.

Interesting to note train length totalled 16 vehicles including 9 SLE/SLEP.

 

[Peter LEYTR]

So as I'm sure most of us are aware there are still sleeper services in the UK. Three trains serving six destinations (the Night Riviera linking London and Penzance, the Lowland linking London to Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the Highland linking London to Fort William, Inverness and Aberdeen) are the remains of what was once a very extensive network of sleeper services crisscrossing the country. Now I had had in my head that by the end of the 80s and into the early 90s the pattern that we now have had basically been established and the only remaining significant service outside of that pattern was a Edinburgh to Plymouth cross-country sleeper which eventually got killed off at privatisation. However studying my May to October 1989 GB Timetable reveals that that image in my head was extremely inaccurate.

Take for instance departures from Euston (no Kings Cross sleepers by now, indeed there's a lovely note advising that there is now the "added convenience of leaving from just one station: Euston") on Sunday to Friday nights:
View attachment 92341
(Image shows nine departures from Euston between 2100 and 2359 serving range of destinations including three trains to Glasgow, two to Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh and one each to Stranraer, Fort William, Carlisle, Manchester and Liverpool)

Needless to say the very early arrivals at somewhere like Carlisle or Liverpool have an accompanying note to indicate you can remain in berths until a slightly more civilised hour! In the reverse direction there are even two further services to Euston one from Holyhead (and independent train) and Barrow (which joins at Stafford with sleeper cars from Liverpool and seats from Manchester) that don't have sleepers to them from Euston meaning even more sleeper services located around Euston.

Then there's all the Saturday night sleepers to/from Euston to boot which is something that's long gone now with sleepers very much being a Sunday to Friday night operation these days:
View attachment 92342
(Image shows eight departures between 2000 and 2359 serving a range of destinations including two trains to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen and one train to Carlisle, Liverpool and Manchester)

As previous very early arrivals include provision to remain in berths until a more reasonable hour and in the reverse direction there are a similar number of services to Euston (including Holyhead but not Barrow). The 2205 from Euston taking over twelve hours to get Aberdeen/Inverness caused me to pause for a moment and looking at it's schedule it's allowed three hours and forty minutes between Preston and Carstairs compared to two and a half hours of it's weekday equivalent. Perhaps they're going via the Cumbrian Coast during this timetable? In any event Euston must have been a hive of activity for sleeper services seven days a week from around 2000 until close to midnight at this period!

I have to say that I found it remarkable that as late as 1989 there were still dedicated sleeper only train to Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh with no portion working at all and indeed all of them saw more than one sleeper service per night (though the extra usually conveyed portions of one description or another). Stranraer still being a survivor was also quite eye opening!

Turning to our other remaining London terminus that saw sleepers then and continues to see them now (Paddington) the Night Riviera is there and happily running seven nights a week compared to the usual six nights that it does now. It also still drops off a portion in Plymouth meaning that passengers in 1989 get to remain with their berths until 0800 (rather than getting kicked out 0510ish) or can join their berths at 2200 (rather than having to loiter around until the train leaves Plymouth shortly before midnight)!

But of far more interest, at least to my sleeper starved eyes, are the other services which still exist as late as 1989 which do not serve London at all. The previously mentioned South West to Scotland sleeper remains a seven day a week operation at this time:

View attachment 92345
(Image shows Plymouth to Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper service including Saturday night only extension for service to start back from Penzance)

One of those services firmly in the "wouldn't it be nice if" category today! The Saturday night extension back from Penzance was interesting as I don't think I'd ever realised it had extended beyond Plymouth. The reverse direction is similar of course but the extension to Penzance is on the Friday night departures from Scotland so arriving on Saturday morning (which of course neatly puts the stock in the right place to go north again that evening!).

The eye may be drawn to the long wait at Birmingham New Street on every day except Saturday where it goes straight through with just a five minute station call. Well, that's to allow the for a portion to be joined from Poole:

View attachment 92346
(Image shows Poole to Birmingham New Street section of service)

Quite a remarkable service to think about and surely this portion must have died off before very much longer and indeed before the rest of the service was binned in the mid-90s as surely it was only carrying fresh air most days?

The final surprise is that as late as 1989 there were still internal Scottish sleepers! Something which I was certain had surely been consigned to the rubbish skip of history by 1989 but here we are, seven days per week:
View attachment 92356
(Image shows sleepers from Edinburgh/Glasgow Q Street to Perth where they combine and run onto Inverness)

It's also worth knowing that northbound only on Sunday to Thursday nights there were also sleeping cars conveyed on the Glasgow Queen Street portion through to Aberdeen. I'm struggling to work out what that was all about unless it was someway of trying shuffle stock around but otherwise seems an even more bizarre exercise than the fact that there were any internal sleepers still in Scotland as late as 1989! If you'd ask me before this I'd have thought they'd all gone extinct by the early 80s!!

Anyway, hopefully the above will at least be of interest (please do let me know if so, I've sunk more time than I really should into this post ) but to come back to my opening question, considering that as late as 1989 there was a very extensive network of sleeper services (though admittedly smaller than it had been historically) when was the purge? When did the change happen to remove sleepers to places like Manchester, Liverpool and Stranraer? When did we go from two or three services per night to/from the major Scottish cities (including some sleeping car only direct services) down to the current two trains conveying portions only? If it really did happen between 1989 and the mid-90s it must have been one heck of a cull in a very short space of time! Did it get remarked on at all at the time? Or was this lost to either the white heat of privatisation gripping the industry and press or was it lost to the reality, I'd guess, that most of them were very quiet most of the time?

Fascinating stuff. I remember travelling at least a couple of times c.1989 on the Edinburgh - Inverness. After several pints of Tennant's finest at theTalisman Bar in Waverley, blagged a First Class seated compartment for trip up North. 47 hauled, the Glasgow section joined at Perth. A great trip whikst gales and rain battered the outside as we made our way up the Highland Line. Another trip did the reverse from Inverness to Glasgow. Lighting had failed in one carriage, but took advantage as handy for a few hours kip

 

[181]

I have a couple of sleeper related questions which I am sure some of you will be able to respond to:
1. Fort William was a very late addition to the Motorail network and it only ran for a few years in the immediate pre Caledonian Sleeper service model era. Can anybody advise what years it actually ran and whether by then it would be sleepers only or was it still conveying seated accommodation? A move south of the border severely curtailed my West Highland knowledge after 1986.

This doesn't fully answer your question as it's only one data point, but I travelled from Euston to Fort William in a seated coach (without having to walk along the platform at Edinburgh like you do now) in June 1991, and I'm fairly certain that I remember there being some Motorail vans in the formation going up the West Highland.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

This doesn't fully answer your question as it's only one data point, but I travelled from Euston to Fort William in a seated coach (without having to walk along the platform at Edinburgh like you do now) in June 1991, and I'm fairly certain that I remember there being some Motorail vans in the formation going up the West Highland.

Thanks for this '181'. I've never seen any photographs of the train in the Motorail era apart from one from 1990 showing the GUVs being shunted at Fort William but with the rest of the train out of picture, hence I had no knowledge of the formation. Do you recall what other portions it left Euston with and where it split (maybe you were asleep), the OP quotes 1989 as combined with Stranraer and Glasgow Central, an interesting if perhaps unconventional trio.

 

[Bald Rick]

The provision of seated accommodation by Stagecoach between Aberdeen and London followed the general withdrawal of seats at least from Anglo Scottish overnight trains. I don't think it lasted very long, one or perhaps two years. Again, can anybody advise what years it actually ran?

Further to the comprehensive info from @JonathanH , ISTR that the Stagecoach Rail coaches were painted back to IC livery after Stagecoach withdrew from the whole service. However after that point - and presumably through to Oct ‘93, they bought blocks of seats on the services (at a discount) which they took the risk on selling through their own channels. I remember the late Brian Cox coming into the office to do the negotiations. In one of those quirks of fate, one of the people he was negotiating with is now Chair of Serco Caledonian sleeper...

 

[181]

Thanks for this '181'. I've never seen any photographs of the train in the Motorail era apart from one from 1990 showing the GUVs being shunted at Fort William but with the rest of the train out of picture, hence I had no knowledge of the formation. Do you recall what other portions it left Euston with and where it split (maybe you were asleep), the OP quotes 1989 as combined with Stranraer and Glasgow Central, and interesting if perhaps unconventional trio.

I think it split at Edinburgh, and not anywhere else (I think that's the occasion I remember noticing trainspotters on Carlisle station in the middle of the night, in which case I must have been awake there and would probably have noticed a long stop for shunting), and I'm 100% certain that it went via Edinburgh (using the Carstairs avoiding line, the Edinburgh & Glasgow main line*, and the north curve (if that's the correct name) at Cowlairs, but I can't remember at all where the rest of it was going -- presumably Aberdeen or Inverness. Hopefully someone here may have a copy of the relevant timetable.

*I can't rule out its having gone via Falkirk Grahamston, but it definitely didn't go via Cumbernauld.

According to Wikipedia, the Carstairs-Edinburgh line was electrified in 1989 (it doesn't say which month), so I'd guess sleeper routings and service patterns might have changed then or soon afterwards.

The eye may be drawn to the long wait at Birmingham New Street on every day except Saturday where it goes straight through with just a five minute station call. Well, that's to allow the for a portion to be joined from Poole:...

...Quite a remarkable service to think about and surely this portion must have died off before very much longer and indeed before the rest of the service was binned in the mid-90s as surely it was only carrying fresh air most days?

I travelled from Basingstoke to Glasgow on a Wednesday night in February 1990, as part of a journey from Surbiton to Oban, and if I remember rightly the train when I boarded it consisted of just two sleeping cars and one seated coach; I had a second-class sleeping compartment to myself, but that's all I can say about passenger numbers. Living where I now do in the Thames valley I'd find this service quite useful if it still ran today, but I think it only ever ran for a few years in the late 80s and early 90s.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Generally on the wider sleeper topic, I'd have thought that excepting London - Penzance / Highlands, the journey time for a train in this country means that Sleepers to other destinations would have to be artificially slow if it is to be a "socially acceptable" sleeper (for instance 2300-0600)? Indeed the Night Riviera already is slower than a day-time service. We could have more cross-country sleepers of course - my mum took one from Exeter back to Scotland in the 1980s - which she describes as a somewhat terrifying experience with various "sorts" on the train! But I suppose the demand isn't there like it is to/from London and the airports in London.

Presumably as speeds increased across the network, it then became prohibitively expensive and no doubt the airline industry provided more economic and quicker options.

The routes were arranged to 'fill the time': I took a Liverpool-London sleeper in the 1970s, I was woken by a lot of shouting and clattering at one of the 'stops', discovered we were in Nottingham! The train was being loaded with post and parcels.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This is a really fascinating thread to read, thanks to everyone who is contributing to it. London Euston must have been a fascinating place to watch the morning and evening operations, considering all the loco-release, shunting and Motorail ops that will have been going on pretty continuously for several hours twice each day.

 

[Davester50]

A find of the clear out in the lockdown was a lot of my old train number books, which prompted me to this forum. I lost interest in trains when girls became much more interesting to me in my teens!

I'd noted a few formations of the mid 80s, one of which was the old blue light Nightrider from Aberdeen to King's Cross.

28th January 1986
47474 + 3259,3234,3258,3260,92201,10658,10507,10668,10525,10660,10510,93669,93691,93447

Funny to think how much the sleeper traffic has fallen. I've only used the London Sleeper a handful of times since the 80s, so I'm guilty of being part of the demise, as I find it much easier to fly and stay now.

 

[GusB]

Regarding the coaches for the Stagecoach Rail services, there's a good photo of one of them here (from David Devoy's excellent collection). It looks fairly shiny, so I can only assume it was fairly recently out of the paint shop at the time.

STAGECOACH BLUEBIRD 457 A165TGE

Stagecoach Group's first foray into Rail Travel involved hiring complete trains from British Rail, with connections by coach fantailing out to the North. A165TGE was one such vehicle used to link-up with the Rail Network. It was based in Inverness and carries Stagecoach Rail Decals. It was a...

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