Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Class 170101]

But still no (more) detailed plans?

Doesn't the article and previous discussions say something about the DfT telling TfN not to publish detailed plans until after IRP (I think it is)

Furthermore, Gareth Dennis(who is very pro-rail and pro HS2) said on Twitter and did a video that Woodhead shouldn't reopen and it is a windier route due to the lack of tunnels, the only one being Woodhead, with Hope Valley having 2 via Belle Vue and Guide Bridge and 3 via Stockport, Disley Tunnel(Stockport route only), Cowburn Tunnel and Totley Tunnel.

Aren't the tunnels themselves a constraint to higher capacity and speeds? Totley Tunnel is an AB section in itself, whilst I can't remember the exact time referred elsewhere isn't it at least a 6 minute block section due to no signals inside the tunnel. What are the other tunnels referred to like for Headways? Higher speeds need wider tunnels too I'd have thought for reducing wind resistance.

 

[ABB125]

Doesn't the article and previous discussions say something about the DfT telling TfN not to publish detailed plans until after IRP (I think it is).

Possibly, I can't remember but that seems likely. I'm not holding my breath though!

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes Dft has instructed they arent allowed to publish their business case until after the Integrated Rail Plan is published, so TfTN suspecting the Dft just wants to get its cheaper version in first have published their strategy and outline cost/benefits but will hold off on the full report til later. Particularly after the National Infrastructure Commission included HS2 phase 1 spending as 'Northern Spending' and reduced the envelope that NPR has to work with by about 4/5ths as part of their advice to the Dft for the Integrated Rail Plan.

 

[Greybeard33]

Transport for the North (TfN) have now agreed the preferred route for NPR (basically the same as was the case for the initial preference in November):

Final Northern Powerhouse Rail route agreed including links with HS2 | New Civil Engineer

This includes plans to connect Sheffield to High Speed 2 (HS2) and on to Leeds. The route remains unchanged from the initial preference submitted in

www.newcivilengineer.com

The difference now is that TfN have now written to DfT to formally state this preference.

The various press stories all appear to be based on this TfN press release:

https://transportforthenorth.com/press-release/leaders-agree-final-northern-powerhouse-rail-plan/

This stems from the TfN Board Meeting on 18 February, which was advised that TfN could not legally finalise the NPR Strategic Outline business Case (SOC), because the Transport Secretary had written to request a delay until after the IRP is published. DfT and TfN are co-clients of the NPR programme, so DfT has a veto. TfN has instead submitted Statutory Advice to Grant Shapps detailing its preferred route options, timelines and business case.

The press release is intended to put political pressure on central government to commit to TfN's full preferred network in the IRP and Budget.

In addition to the preferred routes and dates quoted in the NCE story, the press release outlines the benefits claimed in the business case:

Once delivered, the network is predicted to:

• Contribute £14.4 billion in annual gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy by 2060
• Create up to 74,000 new jobs in the North by 2060
• Take the equivalent of 58,000 cars off the road

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

20 minutes to Manchester, and 30 to the Airport, suggests a dedicated HS line to a Piccadilly through station with a vast amount of tunnelling.
I doubt if that's what DfT has in mind.
Liverpool is also making noises about the likely "cheap and nasty" NPR approach using the Fiddlers Ferry/South Parkway route.

 

[peters]

The various press stories all appear to be based on this TfN press release:

https://transportforthenorth.com/press-release/leaders-agree-final-northern-powerhouse-rail-plan/

I notice on the map the following 2 points appear:

5 Junction on HS2 Manchester spur for Manchester – Liverpool services
6 South facing junction on HS2 mainline for London – Liverpool services

Where exactly are these junctions going to be? There's a lot of debate about the routing of HS2 through Cheshire and it looks like these two points would add further new rail routes, without necessarily creating new stations.

 

[edwin_m]

I notice on the map the following 2 points appear:

5 Junction on HS2 Manchester spur for Manchester – Liverpool services
6 South facing junction on HS2 mainline for London – Liverpool services

Where exactly are these junctions going to be? There's a lot of debate about the routing of HS2 through Cheshire and it looks like these two points would add further new rail routes, without necessarily creating new stations.

That sketch map has been knocking around for some time. Someone will have looked at alignments in more detail but they won't be publishing this information, because to do so they really need some arrangements in place to compensate anyone who is "blighted" when a map appears showing their house is planned for flattenment.

The idea is that heading out of Manchester, a Liverpool train would diverge to the right off the HS2 line somewhere after the Airport station and continue heading westwards. A curve would trail in from the south for London-Liverpool trains. You may well be able to guess (with or without the aid of a set of crayons) where these junctions are, but don't expect confirmation from any official source just yet.

 

[snowball]

That sketch map has been knocking around for some time. Someone will have looked at alignments in more detail but they won't be publishing this information, because to do so they really need some arrangements in place to compensate anyone who is "blighted" when a map appears showing their house is planned for flattenment.

The idea is that heading out of Manchester, a Liverpool train would diverge to the right off the HS2 line somewhere after the Airport station and continue heading westwards. A curve would trail in from the south for London-Liverpool trains. You may well be able to guess (with or without the aid of a set of crayons) where these junctions are, but don't expect confirmation from any official source just yet.

A thought that's often occurred to me is this: a lot of people have argued that NPR should be given priority over HS2 and may be under the impression that there is not a lot of opposition to NPR. But that is likely to change once there are detailed plans to object to.

 

[Purple Orange]

I notice on the map the following 2 points appear:

5 Junction on HS2 Manchester spur for Manchester – Liverpool services
6 South facing junction on HS2 mainline for London – Liverpool services

Where exactly are these junctions going to be? There's a lot of debate about the routing of HS2 through Cheshire and it looks like these two points would add further new rail routes, without necessarily creating new stations.

HS2 Phase 2b Western Leg Design Refinement Consultation

The Minister of State for Transport is consulting on 4 proposed refinements to the design of the Western Leg of HS2 Phase 2b.

www.gov.uk

The relevant junctions are in the HS2 plans. If you click on the first report, you’ll see the maps as to where they are located plus the junction from Piccadilly HS2 towards Leeds.

 

[peters]

That sketch map has been knocking around for some time. Someone will have looked at alignments in more detail but they won't be publishing this information, because to do so they really need some arrangements in place to compensate anyone who is "blighted" when a map appears showing their house is planned for flattenment.

The idea is that heading out of Manchester, a Liverpool train would diverge to the right off the HS2 line somewhere after the Airport station and continue heading westwards. A curve would trail in from the south for London-Liverpool trains. You may well be able to guess (with or without the aid of a set of crayons) where these junctions are, but don't expect confirmation from any official source just yet.

A thought that's often occurred to me is this: a lot of people have argued that NPR should be given priority over HS2 and may be under the impression that there is not a lot of opposition to NPR. But that is likely to change once there are detailed plans to object to.

There's recently been objections from the Green Party relating to a spur which was dropped as part of the HS2 plans being reinstated which would create a triangle. They claim that would have a detrimental effect on High Legh (7 miles from Warrington) so I was wondering if the spur marked as a new line with a number 5 next to it was possibly what they were referring to.

I gather WY unveiled their Rail vision today but I haven't got Zoom so missed the webinar

For future reference Zoom is a free download on a computer, tablet or mobile. You only need to pay if you want to host meetings with 3+ participants which last over 40 minutes.

 

[Greybeard33]

The relevant junctions are in the HS2 plans. If you click on the first report, you’ll see the maps as to where they are located plus the junction from Piccadilly HS2 towards Leeds.

In fact DfT published the detailed plans of the Liverpool junctions in the previous October 2020 HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation response, which can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation

Seeks views on proposed refinements to the Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester and West Midlands to Leeds) line of route.

www.gov.uk

See Section 2.4, Passive provision for two junctions at High Legh, Cheshire.
The map, Fig.6, shows that the east facing junction will be just south of M56 J7/8 and the south facing one pretty much co-located with the junction between the HS2 Golborne spur and Manchester spur.

It also shows provision for a bridge where the NPR line crosses the Golborne spur.

 

[snowball]

In fact DfT published the detailed plans of the Liverpool junctions in the previous October 2020 HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation response, which can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation

Seeks views on proposed refinements to the Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester and West Midlands to Leeds) line of route.

www.gov.uk

See Section 2.4, Passive provision for two junctions at High Legh, Cheshire.
The map, Fig.6, shows that the east facing junction will be just south of M56 J7/8 and the south facing one pretty much co-located with the junction between the HS2 Golborne spur and Manchester spur.

It also shows provision for a bridge where the NPR line crosses the Golborne spur.

A lot of proposed infrastructure in an area recently impacted by the construction of the realigned A556 - and more to come when the NPR route is published.

 

[edwin_m]

In fact DfT published the detailed plans of the Liverpool junctions in the previous October 2020 HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation response, which can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation

Seeks views on proposed refinements to the Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester and West Midlands to Leeds) line of route.

www.gov.uk

See Section 2.4, Passive provision for two junctions at High Legh, Cheshire.
The map, Fig.6, shows that the east facing junction will be just south of M56 J7/8 and the south facing one pretty much co-located with the junction between the HS2 Golborne spur and Manchester spur.

It also shows provision for a bridge where the NPR line crosses the Golborne spur.

Thanks for that, must have missed that one.

 

[Purple Orange]

Either no new build at all except what is planned for the TRU or no tunneling. And serving Bradford I thought would add a fair amount to the cost

If it was just TRU, would that be a bad thing? With full electrification, the journey times are intended to be 39 minutes with 6 fast, 2 semi+fast and 2 stoppers on the mainline Huddersfield. I have a feeling the most amount of new build line will be through east Manchester then reconnecting with the existing line, perhaps east of Stalybridge.

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm not convinced there will be much new build or any electrification of the most difficult terrain (Huddersfield- Stalybridge)

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not convinced there will be much new build or any electrification of the most difficult terrain (Huddersfield- Stalybridge)

I’m convinced there will be.

 

[Glenn1969]

I hope you're right but am not convinced the Treasury will commit to the full cost

 

[snowball]

It’s definitely a Bradford proposal. TfN would find it hard not to support it, but notice Tim Wood’s carefully chosen words.

Now I'm really confused. I thought TfN was on record as wanting a route via the centre of Bradford.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'm not convinced there will be much new build or any electrification of the most difficult terrain (Huddersfield- Stalybridge)

Oh there will definitely be electrification. Politically and environmentally we need to see our railways decarbonised.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now I'm really confused. I thought TfN was on record as wanting a route via the centre of Bradford.

They do. And work has, I’m sure, been done to provide options for that.

This proposal by Bradford City Council is not one of them, and I’d bet a dozen pints of Landlord it hasn’t been done to a level of detail anywhere near that which has been done by the NPR project.

 

[Roast Veg]

They do. And work has, I’m sure, been done to provide options for that.

Your certainty is perhaps a little understated, I suspect.

This begs the question though - what are Bradford afraid of? Do they still think they might lose out to Huddersfield, or some descoping that writes out a near-city-centre station?

 

[Bald Rick]

This begs the question though - what are Bradford afraid of? Do they still think they might lose out to Huddersfield, or some descoping that writes out a near-city-centre station?

Well I’m guessing now, and set my Cynic-ometer up to 11, but Bradford must have seen the work done to date, and the benefits / costs, and worked out that it doesn’t look good for them. (i.e. the £4bn extra discussed previously). So they commission their own work to find a cheaper answer and publicise it in a way that even the well informed Joe Public won’t notice is not an official NPR proposal. That makes it a harder sell for the IRP when they make their announcement if it doesn’t have a route via Bradford.

In short - politics.

 

[Glenn1969]

Unfortunately I think they will be disappointed. I had wondered whether Sunak will veto any new line completely but suspect they will stick to the main line route to save money

 

[matacaster]

Well I’m guessing now, and set my Cynic-ometer up to 11, but Bradford must have seen the work done to date, and the benefits / costs, and worked out that it doesn’t look good for them. (i.e. the £4bn extra discussed previously). So they commission their own work to find a cheaper answer and publicise it in a way that even the well informed Joe Public won’t notice is not an official NPR proposal. That makes it a harder sell for the IRP when they make their announcement if it doesn’t have a route via Bradford.

In short - politics.

Leeds and Manchester aren't really bothered which route is taken, but they really do want a fast link. The going via bradford idea was only agreed to by NPR to make Bradford happy. The local big councils are all labour run, so wypta (or whoever) felt obliged to support via Bradford. The Bradford route is more expensive and even in crayonista form likely holds no advantage from giver ments point of view. It should also be noted that Bradford has rejected joining the two stations and built obstacles on several occasions since 1911 one only a few years ago. They also have a history of non-rail mega projects which all fall by the wayside (eg odsal Wembley of the North)

 

[snowball]

In fact DfT published the detailed plans of the Liverpool junctions in the previous October 2020 HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation response, which can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b design refinement consultation

Seeks views on proposed refinements to the Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester and West Midlands to Leeds) line of route.

www.gov.uk

See Section 2.4, Passive provision for two junctions at High Legh, Cheshire.
The map, Fig.6, shows that the east facing junction will be just south of M56 J7/8 and the south facing one pretty much co-located with the junction between the HS2 Golborne spur and Manchester spur.

It also shows provision for a bridge where the NPR line crosses the Golborne spur.

Larger scale plans of the Hoo Green/ High Legh/ Rostherne/ Ashley area here. Lots of development in the rural area but no Manchester to the north curve.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806362/DRC_-_Passive_provision_for_two_junctions_at_High_Legh_wm.pdf

 

[Bald Rick]

Lots of development in the rural area but no Manchester to the north curve.

Personally I don’t see the need for a Manchester to north curve. It would be a long way round, and even at 230kph that the Manchester branch and much of the route north of the new junction to Golborne will be, the stop at the airport means that I suspect Manchester - Preston will still be quicker via Bolton.

 

[Ianno87]

Personally I don’t see the need for a Manchester to north curve. It would be a long way round, and even at 230kph that the Manchester branch and much of the route north of the new junction to Golborne will be, the stop at the airport means that I suspect Manchester - Preston will still be quicker via Bolton.

And the HS2 spur via Manchester Airport is likely to be busy enough with HS2 services from Euston/Curzon Street, and NPR services from Liverpool.

 

[Glenn1969]

You seem convinced NPR to Liverpool and the new line to Leeds will get the go ahead in full. So why do I still have doubts that Sunak won't scale them back to save the Treasury money. The WYCA Rail Vision also included CP8 and CP9 improvements to all existing routes so all 5 district hubs can have 6 trains an hour to Leeds, and all stations can have increased frequency (2tph minimum and 4 at the likes of Hebden Bridge and Todmorden). But will Sunak let us have both ?

 

[Purple Orange]

You seem convinced NPR to Liverpool and the new line to Leeds will get the go ahead in full. So why do I still have doubts that Sunak won't scale them back to save the Treasury money. The WYCA Rail Vision also included CP8 and CP9 improvements to all existing routes so all 5 district hubs can have 6 trains an hour to Leeds, and all stations can have increased frequency (2tph minimum and 4 at the likes of Hebden Bridge and Todmorden). But will Sunak let us have both ?

Optimist v pessimist outtake.

I am pessimistic that the government will deliver a completely new NPR line, but I am optimistic that they will back it in a fanfare, with a phased proposal. Perhaps only 1 stage will be built.

I am optimistic that HS2 will be delivered to Manchester, but I am pessimistic that the eastern branch will be built in the same timeframe and that it will be delivered in phases, like the western branch is.

I am optimistic that there will be full electrification of the Trans Pennine mainline between York & Manchester, but pessimistic that the government will back a new line towards Liverpool via Warrington.

I am optimistic that there will be a stretch of new high speed line (perhaps 10-15 miles) heading east from Manchester Piccadilly to the existing Trans Pennine mainline and will form ‘phase 1’ of what will be a new NPR line, but I am pessimistic that phase 2 (and 3) will ever be built.

 

[Roast Veg]

I am optimistic that there will be full electrification of the Trans Pennine mainline between York & Manchester, but pessimistic that the government will back a new line towards Liverpool via Warrington.

Liverpool might not like it, but the line via Fiddler's Ferry is ready and waiting.