Big fare increase for Merseyrail

[nedchester]

I did wonder how long it would take Merseyrail to realise that the current TVM software isn't compatible with rangers/rovers! They only need to add 'northwirralines' as a destination though...
It's about £30k per machine just to get additional languages installed, so to add extra destinations may be too costly in their opinion, but I can only speculate.

I don't think they've intentionally set out to rip people off, probably more a case of someone not thinking about unstaffed station situations.

Just an early notice that Merseyrail/Northern should be introducing smartcard technology in Merseyside very similar to oyster from Summer 2011. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/newsarticle.asp?articleid=1751&catid=1

Well I emailed Merseyrail about this issue on Sept 5th about this, got a reply a couple of days later that I would get a detailed reply within 20 working days which I think are up on Tuesday.

I think that if they cannot modify their TVMs then a notice needs to be put on unmanned stations informing them of how to apply for a refund otherwise I would say that MerseyRail ARE intentionally setting out to rip off people.

They should also suspend penalty fares for those who cannot buy the day saver from the TVMs.

 

[First class]

Well I emailed Merseyrail about this issue on Sept 5th about this, got a reply a couple of days later that I would get a detailed reply within 20 working days which I think are up on Tuesday.

I think that if they cannot modify their TVMs then a notice needs to be put on unmanned stations informing them of how to apply for a refund otherwise I would say that MerseyRail ARE intentionally setting out to rip off people.

They should also suspend penalty fares for those who cannot buy the day saver from the TVMs.

People are best buying a single to wherever and excessing up to this new ticket.

I don't see the need to suspend PFs, because people can buy a (cheaper single) ticket to their destination and excess it up to the day saver. So people are only losing out if they choose to buy a return, and even then, they can get their money back, but obviously they should be told.

 

[supervalkoinen]

From another email reply 22/9:

"I have forwarded a copy of your email to the Station Manager, to see if they are able to arrange for a sign to be displayed, under the problem is sorted out."

Still waiting. It would be total chaos (e.g.on a Sat) if everyone bought the wrong tkts from TVMs and requested refunds or excesses.

May be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that the boss of Merseyrail travels from Bache.

 

[mickey]

I don't think they've intentionally set out to rip people off, probably more a case of someone not thinking about unstaffed station situations.

I agree, but it doesn't make it ok that they haven't sorted out an alternative, despite having been told almost immediately it was an issue.

"we are asking customers to purchase their tickets for whichever journey they are undertaking, and to exchange them at any Merseyrail station, for the Day Saver ticket. A refund of any difference will also be made."
No signs at Bache station and yesterday lots of casual travellers paying over the odds.

I think that if they cannot modify their TVMs then a notice needs to be put on unmanned stations informing them of how to apply for a refund otherwise I would say that MerseyRail ARE intentionally setting out to rip off people.
They should also suspend penalty fares for those who cannot buy the day saver from the TVMs.

I agree. It's their fault people are buying the wrong tickets and the least they could do is put a notice on the machine telling people what to do. How many people are realistically going to know they can get an excess or a refund? And given the reputation of the RPIs how many are likely to try it even if they know they should, given the chance they might accidentally get the wrong one?

People are best buying a single to wherever and excessing up to this new ticket.

And even if they do choose to get an excess, how many will actually bother? Especially since there is at best only one excess window at an arrival station and usually not even that. Think of the queues on a busy Saturday!

People are being conned and are losing out. Someone brave should mount a legal challenge of some kind - the resulting publicity is probably the only thing that would make them do anything about it.

 

[nedchester]

I agree, but it doesn't make it ok that they haven't sorted out an alternative, despite having been told almost immediately it was an issue.



I agree. It's their fault people are buying the wrong tickets and the least they could do is put a notice on the machine telling people what to do. How many people are realistically going to know they can get an excess or a refund? And given the reputation of the RPIs how many are likely to try it even if they know they should, given the chance they might accidentally get the wrong one?


And even if they do choose to get an excess, how many will actually bother? Especially since there is at best only one excess window at an arrival station and usually not even that. Think of the queues on a busy Saturday!

People are being conned and are losing out. Someone brave should mount a legal challenge of some kind - the resulting publicity is probably the only thing that would make them do anything about it.

OK it's only 40p extra for an Anytime from say Capenhurst to Liverpool but it's 40p more than people should be paying. How many 40p's have they fraudulently got off people for the past month? I agree that even if they put notices then Merseyrail know that many people will not bother.

As I say penalty fares should be withdrawn for people wishing to buy this ticket and instructions issued that these will be available on the train.

Both the Merseyrail website and leaflets say the ticket is available on the train. This is a lie. And before anyone says that Merseyrail didn't intend this, maybe so but they should have checked before making such a statement!

 

[radamfi]

Is there a technical reason why Day Savers are not available from the machines?

It is the same in GM where you have to queue up to buy a System One Day Saver or GM Rail Ranger. Are you allowed to buy a single from the machine at say Manchester Victoria and upgrade it on the train to a Day Saver or Rail Ranger?

 

[First class]

Is there a technical reason why Day Savers are not available from the machines?

It is the same in GM where you have to queue up to buy a System One Day Saver or GM Rail Ranger. Are you allowed to buy a single from the machine at say Manchester Victoria and upgrade it on the train to a Day Saver or Rail Ranger?

The destination "northwirrallines" is missing from the national list of stations available for TVMs which enables the issuing of the ME Day Saver.

The cost for adding this is potentially into the hundreds of thousands making it an unattractive option to add or modify the TVM software.

 

[ukrob]

The destination "northwirrallines" is missing from the national list of stations available for TVMs which enables the issuing of the ME Day Saver.

The cost for adding this is potentially into the hundreds of thousands making it an unattractive option to add or modify the TVM software.

I absolutely understand that you were just answering the question which was asked, however, it is of no concern to the passengers WHY it is not available, nor is it the customers fault that it would cost money to get it added.

 

[radamfi]

The cost for adding this is potentially into the hundreds of thousands making it an unattractive option to add or modify the TVM software.

But that is crazy! That means it is uneconomic to add any new station. What about the new stations between Airdrie and Bathgate? Is this also the reason why SWT machines don't have the full list of stations?

 

[First class]

I absolutely understand that you were just answering the question which was asked, however, it is of no concern to the passengers WHY it is not available, nor is it the customers fault that it would cost money to get it added.

Absolutely.

Merseyrail should at least update their website for this product:

From the 5th September 2010 Cheap day return tickets will be replaced with an all day rail ticket which allows unlimited off peak travel across Merseyrail Wirral and Northern line services. You can purchase your Day Saver Ticket at any Merseyrail ticket office or any ticket vending machine.

I'd go with Passenger Focus personally. They were the ones that forced Merseyrail to make a single cheaper than a return for Liverpool-Chester, hence the introduction of the CDS.

 

[mickey]

As I say penalty fares should be withdrawn for people wishing to buy this ticket and instructions issued that these will be available on the train.

Both the Merseyrail website and leaflets say the ticket is available on the train. This is a lie. And before anyone says that Merseyrail didn't intend this, maybe so but they should have checked before making such a statement!

No tickets are available on Merseyrail trains - you're either given a Penalty Fare (or UFN) or told to go to the ticket office on arrival. I would absolutely love to test this by trying to buy a Rover (a proper one, not a Day Saver or Saveaway) but I won't cos I'm too scared of the RPIs!

 

[First class]

The website doesn't say available on the train?!

 

[radamfi]

No tickets are available on Merseyrail trains - you're either given a Penalty Fare (or UFN) or told to go to the ticket office on arrival. I would absolutely love to test this by trying to buy a Rover (a proper one, not a Day Saver or Saveaway) but I won't cos I'm too scared of the RPIs!

What are the rules about 'testing' an RPI? I don't have the balls for this experiment myself but in theory I can't see anything wrong with this.

Buy a ticket as 'insurance' but tell the RPI that you didn't get a ticket because you wanted to buy a Rover at the other end. If you get threatened with a Penalty Fare or worse, just whip out your ticket. Obviously this experiment means you have to pay for a ticket you don't need.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail RPIs are generally quite generous.

I've spoken to a few, including their (now) boss, who has said anyone wanting unavailable tickets from these stations would be sold them or told to get them at their destination.

Technically, you are actually liable I believe as I think you need to buy a valid ticket, (single), and when you reach your destination (or earliest opportunity) change it for the required ticket.

Other TOCs may not be as generous as Merseyrail RPIs who IMO genuinely try to pursue deliberate evasion, (hence all RPIs being PACE trained).

 

[vjm1975]

I also emailed Merseyrail a couple of weeks ago, and had a reply of them on Monday just gone.

They told me that there had been some technical issues in updating the TVM's to make the day tickets available, and they would be available by the end of the week.

Unfortunately, having tried yesterday and today this has not been the case, so it looks like another email to Merseyrail I think.

They did say you can change your ticket at the destination, but from experience so far, it seems staff are either unaware of this, or just simply don't want the hasssle of having to do it. I have been refused twice so far, claiming it isn't possible to change the ticket type.

Also, Merseyrail said you will be unable to change the ticket at Chester as this is operated by ATW, so anyone travelling to Chester would have to send their tickets by post to Merseyrail to claim the difference back.

 

[nedchester]

I also emailed Merseyrail a couple of weeks ago, and had a reply of them on Monday just gone.

They told me that there had been some technical issues in updating the TVM's to make the day tickets available, and they would be available by the end of the week.

Unfortunately, having tried yesterday and today this has not been the case, so it looks like another email to Merseyrail I think.

They did say you can change your ticket at the destination, but from experience so far, it seems staff are either unaware of this, or just simply don't want the hasssle of having to do it. I have been refused twice so far, claiming it isn't possible to change the ticket type.

Also, Merseyrail said you will be unable to change the ticket at Chester as this is operated by ATW, so anyone travelling to Chester would have to send their tickets by post to Merseyrail to claim the difference back.

And the cost of the postage will be more than the refund claimed. Very poor.

There is no reason why Chester cannot offer the refund.

If I was refused a refund/excess to Day Saver at Liverpool Central for example I would not move until they did.

 

[mickey]

Technically, you are actually liable I believe as I think you need to buy a valid ticket, (single), and when you reach your destination (or earliest opportunity) change it for the required ticket.

Again, if this is expected they need to make it clear. The only Ts+Cs I've ever seen on or near a TVM are in font too small to read and are usually sundrenched anyway.

 

[scrapy]

The NRCOC state:-

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Therefore it would be reasonable to expect if you bought a single this could be excessed to a daysaver. If not I would ask for this in writing from the booking office where the excess is requested. The passenger would have kept to their part of the NRCOC, and RPIs have to work within the rules.

 

[Greenback]

if you bought a single this could be excessed to a daysaver. If not I would ask for this in writing from the booking office where the excess is requested. The passenger would have kept to their part of the NRCOC, and RPIs have to work within the rules.

It can be done, of course, but it is a pain for all concerned. It means the passenger has to waste time at their destination, or en route, by (probably) queuing up to exchange their ticket, when all they want is for the proper ticketing facilities to be available at their origin.

Frankly, this is a mess, and it is a mess of Merseyrail's own making. They really should be taken to task over this fiasco.

 

[radamfi]

The NRCOC state:-

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted

Does this apply even if the ticket office sells the full range of tickets but the ticket machine doesn't? Are you allowed to use the ticket machine to buy some kind of ticket to avoid the queue and then excess on the train?

 

[nedchester]

Finally (after a month) got a reply from Merseyrail

Thank you for your email, regarding the self-service ticket machines at our unstaffed stations.

As you are aware, we have recently withdrawn Cheap Day Return tickets, and replaced them with an off peak Day Saver. This is priced at £3.20 for one area, and £4.40 for an all area pass.

These tickets were scheduled to be available on our ticket machines from September 5th, and should have appeared on the top destination screen for ease of purchase. Unfortunately, however, due to software problems, this has not yet been possible. I can, however, promise you that the firm responsible for inputting data into the systems is working on this problem, and doing all that they can to resolve the matter.

In the meantime, we are asking customers to either purchase the standard priced ticket, and exchange it at their destination. This is, however, only possible if you are travelling to or through a Merseyrail station, or alternatively, keep hold of the tickets, and send them into this office using our freepost address. We will then refund the overcharge. Our freepost address is; Merseyrail Customer Relations, FREEPOST NWW3380, Liverpool, Merseyside, L1 1BR.

Please accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience and upset caused, and be assured that everything possible is being done to resolve this problem as quickly as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Debbie Hunter
Customer Relations

 

[supervalkoinen]

Finally (after a month) got a reply from Merseyrail

Thank you for your email, regarding the self-service ticket machines at our unstaffed stations.

As you are aware, we have recently withdrawn Cheap Day Return tickets, and replaced them with an off peak Day Saver. This is priced at £3.20 for one area, and £4.40 for an all area pass.

These tickets were scheduled to be available on our ticket machines from September 5th, and should have appeared on the top destination screen for ease of purchase. Unfortunately, however, due to software problems, this has not yet been possible. I can, however, promise you that the firm responsible for inputting data into the systems is working on this problem, and doing all that they can to resolve the matter.

In the meantime, we are asking customers to either purchase the standard priced ticket, and exchange it at their destination. This is, however, only possible if you are travelling to or through a Merseyrail station, or alternatively, keep hold of the tickets, and send them into this office using our freepost address. We will then refund the overcharge. Our freepost address is; Merseyrail Customer Relations, FREEPOST NWW3380, Liverpool, Merseyside, L1 1BR.

Please accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience and upset caused, and be assured that everything possible is being done to resolve this problem as quickly as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Debbie Hunter
Customer Relations

But they aren't - the vast majority of passengers are clueless, because there is absolutely no info at the stations.

 

[nedchester]

But they aren't - the vast majority of passengers are clueless, because there is absolutely no info at the stations.

Agree. This makes it very underhand/dishonest

 

[mickey]

Given that they have in your letter admitted their systems are not up to scratch and offering a freepost service so people don't lose out claiming, I would be mightily tempted to demand an 'admin fee' of the time and paper, etc., used to submit a refund request. Using the courts' standard rate (pro rata) of course.

 

[supervalkoinen]

6 weeks on and I'm convinced that Merseyrail are taking the p on this one.

At Bache tkt machine it is now possible to buy the "all stations saver", but only if you go through "popular destinations", look at the last option and realise that "Menorthernwirral" means any station on N/W lines.
Vast majority of ignorant punters still paying pounds over the odds for "anytime savers" to named stations.

Still no info on platform boards or trains.

 

[First class]

Positive news:

This ticket now has a more flexible Y7 restriction.

NORTHERN or WIRRAL LINE by any
train except those timed to
depart Monday - Friday between
0631 and 0929

So now valid pre-peak period. I suspect the B1 restriction was a mistake originally. Whoever inputted this ticket hashed it up because the route has the cross London marker on it for starters, when really a more suitable route (available in the system) is "RAIL ONLY NO BUS".

TVMs now list this ticket as 'northwirrallines'. Eventually, this will be on popular destinations. I believe the TVM does this automatically based on sales to the various destinations.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Positive news:

This ticket now has a more flexible Y7 restriction.



So now valid pre-peak period. I suspect the B1 restriction was a mistake originally. Whoever inputted this ticket hashed it up because the route has the cross London marker on it for starters, when really a more suitable route (available in the system) is "RAIL ONLY NO BUS".

TVMs now list this ticket as 'northwirrallines'. Eventually, this will be on popular destinations. I believe the TVM does this automatically based on sales to the various destinations.

Already on "Popular destinations", but well-hidden and nowhere else.
Does not automatically "do" anything when you request any destination.
See my previous post.

 

[Pumbaa]

Has the Liverpool - Chester Rte Any Permitted CDR at £4.40 now been withdrawn as well? It's not coming up on the WebTIS.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Had another look at the tkt machine at Bache - offers a 7-day Merseyrail Season Tkt for a bargain £1050.

 

[First class]

An internal Merseyrail ticket to Bootle Stns used to cost £9999.99 and appeared in the TVMs until they withdrew the CDRs...

That £1050 is an annual Bache-Liverpool Any Permitted Season I think...