8 car trains stopping at 12 car platform position

[flitwickbeds]

Was waiting for a train yesterday evening which was billed to be an 8 car train (instead of the usual 12). Through experience I know that the 8 car stop board is before the end of the platform but the train fills there right to the other (rear) end of the platform.

So, waiting at the rear as normal, the train went past me - clearly the driver thought they had a 12 car. This meant a run down the platform, well past the only staircase down onto it, to get into the rear carriage.

Is stopping at the correct stop board an absolute requirement for the driver or do they have discretion/flexibility to stop where they wish? What other impacts would this have - for example Harrington Humps?

 

[CyrusWuff]

The short version is that an eight coach train stopping at the twelve coach board, whilst inconvenient, isn't a safety issue. A twelve coach train stopping short at the eight coach board, on the other hand, will be...doubly so if the doors are released.

 

[Wolfie]

The short version is that an eight coach train stopping at the twelve coach board, whilst inconvenient, isn't a safety issue. A twelve coach train stopping short at the eight coach board, on the other hand, will be...doubly so if the doors are released.

Indeed. I imagine that the driver is so used to stopping at the 12 board.....

 

[ComUtoR]

clearly the driver thought they had a 12 car.

This is an assumption on your part. There are various factors that may have influenced the stopping point.

The short version is that an eight coach train stopping at the twelve coach board, whilst inconvenient, isn't a safety issue.

It is a safety issue at my TOC

 

[8J]

This is an assumption on your part. There are various factors that may have influenced the stopping point.



It is a safety issue at my TOC

Is that because of DOO or ASDO? I understand it for platform sighting. At a lot of TOCs, stop boards are a luxury!

 

[Ianno87]

Is that because of DOO or ASDO? I understand it for platform sighting. At a lot of TOCs, stop boards are a luxury!

Presumay it's a slips, trips and falls risk as passengers chase the train up the platform?

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Unless a guard or other staff reports it or a passenger tweets about it, nobody would know, and the driver probably noticed as soon as they looked back or checked their screens and kicked themself.
Whilst not a safety issue of itself, beyond inconvenience for a handful of passengers (no more than if short former and people have to run down from the 12 to the 4 board for example), some management might try to play the "what if you had stopped short instead of stopped long" card, so depends on the circumstances I suspect as to any bother about it.

 

[Aictos]

I've had it before, 8 car coming into platform so I position myself in the middle of the train to be closest to the exit and the driver for some reason stopped at the 12 car marker and not the 8 car marker.

Wasn't so much a big deal as all the doors were on the platform, was inconvenienced because I now was further from the exit then planned but hey ho (I try to be as close to the exit as possible because the station in question suffers big time with fare evaders doing the double shuffle behind you as just one reason)

 

[FOH]

If Thameslink the disabled humps would be in the wrong place

 

[ComUtoR]

Is that because of DOO or ASDO? I understand it for platform sighting. At a lot of TOCs, stop boards are a luxury!

DOO could potentially cause sighting issues because you stopped at the incorrect mark and SDO (in its various forms) could also lead to potential PTI risks.

Presumay it's a slips, trips and falls risk as passengers chase the train up the platform?

Indeed. By stopping incorrectly you are introducing risk that shouldn't be there.

and the driver probably noticed as soon as they looked back or checked their screens and kicked themself.

Maybe. Drivers don't always notice they have stopped at the wrong mark. Some have continued for multiple stops before realising.

some management might try to play the "what if you had stopped short instead of stopped long" card, so depends on the circumstances I suspect as to any bother about it.

Many Managers aren't that dismissive when it comes to potential safety risks. The "what if" games are played all the time and rightly so. "what if" the Driver hadn't noticed because they were away with the faires at the time and had, in fact, almost overrun the platform ? "what if" the next stop they were so busy thinking about their error that it lead to another incident ?

 

[Carlisle]

What other impacts would this have - for example Harrington Humps?

I’m pretty sure nothing longer than a 4 car has used the Harrington hump since it’s installation

 

[DorkingMain]

DOO could potentially cause sighting issues because you stopped at the incorrect mark and SDO (in its various forms) could also lead to potential PTI risks.

Same issue for trains dispatched by guards. If you've got stock where you can only dispatch from a limited number of positions (eg cabs, CCTV assisted dispatch), a driver stopping on the wrong mark can throw many spanners in the works.

There's also some stations where the number of locations you can safely board a wheelchair are limited, because of a narrow platform for example. Stopping on the wrong mark can mean your PRM-safe coach doesn't line up with those positions.

 

[Efini92]

This is an assumption on your part. There are various factors that may have influenced the stopping point.



It is a safety issue at my TOC

Surely that’s just creating needless paperwork. If the train is fully accommodated on the platform what’s the issue?
I thought stop boards were introduced as a point to stop the train where passengers would be able to alight nearer to the exit of the station.

 

[Ianno87]

I thought stop boards were introduced as a point to stop the train where passengers would be able to alight nearer to the exit of the station.

Nope, that's only part of the consideration. Others might include:
-Avoiding stopping trains on curved parts of platforms (e.g. to minimise stepping distance or sightlines for dispatch)
-Signal sighting of the platform end signal
-Positioned correctly for track circuits to allow permissive working
-Etc

 

[hello]

Stop marks are guide only, aslong as the full train is platformed

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely that’s just creating needless paperwork. If the train is fully accommodated on the platform what’s the issue?

There may be underlying factors as to why the Driver stopped incorrectly. Those issues cannot be ignored just because the unit was on the platform.

I thought stop boards were introduced as a point to stop the train where passengers would be able to alight nearer to the exit of the station.

Stop boards at my TOC are also associated with DOO monitors. You need to stop at the correct mark because it aligns the train up correctly so that all doors can be seen.

Infrastructure has a huge impact on where stop markers are placed.

If you take the Thameslink core. The doors won't open if you miss your stopping point. Regardless of any delays, you introduce risk because you have to manually override the system. Potentially leading to door release incidents.

As @DorkingMain also points out there may be issues with wheelchair/PRM access because set doors may also be aligned to allow clearance.

 

[Hadders]

Did the train actually stop in the wrong position?

At my local station the 700s all stop at the far end of the platform, regardless of whether they are 8 or 12 car. If an 8-car turns up it's a bit inconvenient from a passenger point of view.

I'm not 100% certain (I'll check when I'm next there) but I think non 700 trains still stop at their historical positions.

 

[Ianno87]

Stop marks are guide only, aslong as the full train is platformed

Not necessarily. On a curved platform (for example), it may not be possible to dispatch the train if there are not enough platform staff to see the full length of the train, or the train cannot be fully seen by the person operating the CD/RA plunger.

 

[choochoochoo]

There may be underlying factors as to why the Driver stopped incorrectly. Those issues cannot be ignored just because the unit was on the platform.



Stop boards at my TOC are also associated with DOO monitors. You need to stop at the correct mark because it aligns the train up correctly so that all doors can be seen.

Infrastructure has a huge impact on where stop markers are placed.

If you take the Thameslink core. The doors won't open if you miss your stopping point. Regardless of any delays, you introduce risk because you have to manually override the system. Potentially leading to door release incidents.

As @DorkingMain also points out there may be issues with wheelchair/PRM access because set doors may also be aligned to allow clearance.

It makes me chuckle that the health and safety bods claim such accurate stopping at stop boards is required when there can be at least 2 metres margin of error depending on the driver's perspective of the stop board (Driver's height/seat position/whether they're leaning forwards etc.)

At some stations 2m is going to make a huge difference in whether a door lines up for a wheelchair or the onboard DOO cameras give a safe view. I really can't believe that the stop board positions are so accurately placed to factor in all the possible perspective issues. If they were they'd need to at least get the tallest and shortest medically permissible drivers allowed to be involved in the testing when they were first signed off safe.

 

[43066]

Stop marks are guide only, aslong as the full train is platformed

That’s not correct.

Stopping short at an incorrect stop car mark is deemed to be an incident, even where the train is fully platformed. On the other hand stopping beyond the correct stop car mark isn’t seen as an issue (albeit bad practice).

 

[bengley]

Stopping point accuracy isn't a big deal really as long as the train is accommodated but it seems in the last couple of years it's become more of an issue for some people for no particularly good reason.

If a train comes into a station permissively it will stop before the train in the platform and the doors will be released wherever the train stands, so it really isn't that big a deal in most places.

 

[ComUtoR]

At my local station the 700s all stop at the far end of the platform, regardless of whether they are 8 or 12 car.

RLU - Reduced Length Unit (8)
FLU - Full (12)
ALL - For both.

I've seen many platforms with a mixture of stop board types. Plenty of threads about them.

 

[Hadders]

RLU - Reduced Length Unit (8)
FLU - Full (12)
ALL - For both.

I've seen many platforms with a mixture of stop board types. Plenty of threads about them.

They're diamond shaped as well rather than square. I'm certain Stevenage has the 'ALL' diamond sign at the far end of the platform.

 

[bramling]

Did the train actually stop in the wrong position?

At my local station the 700s all stop at the far end of the platform, regardless of whether they are 8 or 12 car. If an 8-car turns up it's a bit inconvenient from a passenger point of view.

I'm not 100% certain (I'll check when I'm next there) but I think non 700 trains still stop at their historical positions.

If you’re referring to Stevenage, I think you’re right it only applies to 700s. As you say it’s pretty inconvenient, and in fact not wonderful in the up direction as anyone waiting at the northern end of the platforms will end up running as the back of the train passes them. I know it was done for “stop short” reasons, but it’s still a pain.

Originally there were separate FLU and RLU marks. It changed about a year ago.

 

[Hadders]

If you’re referring to Stevenage, I think you’re right it only applies to 700s. As you say it’s pretty inconvenient, and in fact not wonderful in the up direction as anyone waiting at the northern end of the platforms will end up running as the back of the train passes them. I know it was done for “stop short” reasons, but it’s still a pain.

Originally there were separate FLU and RLU marks. It changed about a year ago.

Yes, Stevenage. The 5-car Azumas also stop at the far end of the platform (at least in the up direction) which is also a bit of a pain but I'm sure 4 car and 8 car marker boards are retained for the 365s and 387s (thinking about it my 365 operated train of choice on my morning commute is an 8 car and doesn't stop at the far end of the platform).

I think you're right about it changing a year or so ago. The 8 car 700s haven't always stopped at the far end of the platform.

 

[choochoochoo]

That’s not correct.

Stopping short at an incorrect stop car mark is deemed to be an incident, even where the train is fully platformed. On the other hand stopping beyond the correct stop car mark isn’t seen as an issue (albeit bad practice).

Although stopping way beyond a correct stop car mark in a permissive through-platform could be an issue. The on-coming train might not fit. Could that be fixed with a walk of shame to the other end of the train and asking the signaller if you can move it?

 

[43066]

Although stopping way beyond a correct stop car mark in a permissive through-platform could be an issue. The on-coming train might not fit. Could that be fixed with a walk of shame to the other end of the train and asking the signaller if you can move it?

Yes that’s true. As you say a call to the signaller would be necessary, although you’d hope that platform staff would make arriving drivers aware (usually by waving a green light as you enter a platform, slowing the waving down as you approach, and then showing red when they want you to stop).

You still need to check you’re correctly accommodated because guess whose fault it will be if you aren’t, and the doors are opened! Permissive working into platforms like this causes nothing but trouble, generally.

 

[choochoochoo]

Yes that’s true. Permissive platforms cause nothing but trouble. As you say a call to the signaller would be necessary, although you’d hope that platform staff would make arriving drivers aware (usually by waving a green light as you enter a platform, slowing the waving down as you approach, and then showing red when they want you to stop).

No platform staff at Peterborough Platform 1 for that. Just a stop car mark.

 

[Efini92]

There may be underlying factors as to why the Driver stopped incorrectly. Those issues cannot be ignored just because the unit was on the platform.



Stop boards at my TOC are also associated with DOO monitors. You need to stop at the correct mark because it aligns the train up correctly so that all doors can be seen.

Infrastructure has a huge impact on where stop markers are placed.

If you take the Thameslink core. The doors won't open if you miss your stopping point. Regardless of any delays, you introduce risk because you have to manually override the system. Potentially leading to door release incidents.

As @DorkingMain also points out there may be issues with wheelchair/PRM access because set doors may also be aligned to allow clearance.

Fair enough, I’ve never driven a DOO train. Plus up north most of our platforms aren’t that long.
I didn’t know that about the Thameslink core, makes sense what you’re saying.

 

[flitwickbeds]

If Thameslink the disabled humps would be in the wrong place

This station doesn't have a Harrington Hump, but yes as I understand it the wheelchair area is in a specific place on the 8/12 car trains and I assume the humps would line up with that area.

I’m pretty sure nothing longer than a 4 car has used the Harrington hump since it’s installation

I don't fully follow this comment, but Thameslink doesn't have any 4 car trains (since the class 700 introduction a few years ago).

Did the train actually stop in the wrong position?

At my local station the 700s all stop at the far end of the platform, regardless of whether they are 8 or 12 car. If an 8-car turns up it's a bit inconvenient from a passenger point of view.

I'm not 100% certain (I'll check when I'm next there) but I think non 700 trains still stop at their historical positions.

Yes. At this station the staircase is maybe 50m from the north end of the platform. 12 car trains use the entire length of the platform as the 12 car stop board is at the extreme south end. The 8 car stop board is (quick maths!) about 80m from the southern end of the platform, so that the end of the train (back of the rear coach) should always line up with the northern end of the platform... if all that makes sense! So when an 8 coach train unexpectedly stops at the 12 car position, there is a ~30m walk from the staircase, or 80m walk from the north end of the platform, to board the first available (rear) coach. Yes, inconvenient for fit, healthy me - but potentially other people might not be able to board the train as a result.