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Can you take bikes on replacement buses?

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Bletchleyite

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Presumably, a separate van to meet every train, at every station ?

If it's an unexpected bustitution, yes. If it is planned, perhaps it could be on some services only clearly indicated in the timetable and available for reservation, but absolutely including the last service of the day.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Presumably, a separate van to meet every train, at every station ?

Yeah, that's obviously not very sensible in most cases - given that most of the time, the fact of engineering works will have been advertised well in advance so most cyclists will have made other travel arrangements anyway. Maybe you could work out something with a booking system, but I strongly suspect that would be complete overkill for the few times it's actually needed. My inclination is to just go with something more like, find a taxi company that has large black cabs and is willing to put a bike in them, and provide a taxi on those very rare situations where a short-notice bustitution means there are customers with existing booked tickets and bicycles. Ditto with any buggies that can't be carried on the buses.

If it's an unexpected bustitution, yes. If it is planned, perhaps it could be on some services only clearly indicated in the timetable and available for reservation, but absolutely including the last service of the day.

One issue could be that if it's an unexpected bustitution, the TOC is probably already going to struggle even to find the buses at short notice, without the additional hassle of finding vans and van drivers at, maybe a couple of hour's notice.
 

Jagdpanther

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Presumably, a separate van to meet every train, at every station ?
Is that so strange? It's not that long ago that every train already had a van area with plenty space for bikes luggage etc. No booking 3 years in advance, no being treated like a leper by other passengers, just turn up and throw your bike on. Unfortunately people have been conned into thinking that the crappy system we have now is the way it should be.
And it is easy to modify buses to carry bikes. Plenty buses in the US do so, on a rack on the front. And why should people believe that buses can't carry bikes - cars ( which I believe are smaller than buses) can be convrted to carry bikes by fitting a simple rack in a matter of minutes.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Is that so strange? It's not that long ago that every train already had a van area with plenty space for bikes luggage etc. No booking 3 years in advance, no being treated like a leper by other passengers, just turn up and throw your bike on. Unfortunately people have been conned into thinking that the crappy system we have now is the way it should be.
And it is easy to modify buses to carry bikes. Plenty buses in the US do so, on a rack on the front. And why should people believe that buses can't carry bikes - cars ( which I believe are smaller than buses) can be convrted to carry bikes by fitting a simple rack in a matter of minutes.
Well, stock like the Class 313 EMUs started coming in around 1976 (I lived in Enfield and had a bike at the time, so I remember it well) and the Pacers and Sprinters from the 1980s, so around 40 years.
 

philthetube

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How many people with decent bikes would allow them to be put in the back of a transit?

Yeah, that's obviously not very sensible in most cases - given that most of the time, the fact of engineering works will have been advertised well in advance so most cyclists will have made other travel arrangements anyway. Maybe you could work out something with a booking system, but I strongly suspect that would be complete overkill for the few times it's actually needed. My inclination is to just go with something more like, find a taxi company that has large black cabs and is willing to put a bike in them, and provide a taxi on those very rare situations where a short-notice bustitution means there are customers with existing booked tickets and bicycles. Ditto with any buggies that can't be carried on the buses.



One issue could be that if it's an unexpected bustitution, the TOC is probably already going to struggle even to find the buses at short notice, without the additional hassle of finding vans and van drivers at, maybe a couple of hour's notice.
YOu would be lucky to find a taxi service to do that, too much risk of damage to upholstery, certainly in London that would mean it was off the road until repaired.

I already pay £3k for an Annual Gold Card, and because of engineering work, usually on Sundays, I have to take a bicycle with me as there is no direct tube or rail replacement bus provided, otherwise I would be late for my shift.

How much more should I pay for a crap service?
That's £7.50 a journey assuming working 200 days a year, if you were happy to pay a fare which included the railways cost of providing transport for bikes I would have sympathy but as the bike travels free I don't. Sorry.
 
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Robertj21a

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Is that so strange? It's not that long ago that every train already had a van area with plenty space for bikes luggage etc. No booking 3 years in advance, no being treated like a leper by other passengers, just turn up and throw your bike on. Unfortunately people have been conned into thinking that the crappy system we have now is the way it should be.
And it is easy to modify buses to carry bikes. Plenty buses in the US do so, on a rack on the front. And why should people believe that buses can't carry bikes - cars ( which I believe are smaller than buses) can be convrted to carry bikes by fitting a simple rack in a matter of minutes.
Yes, of course it is so strange, I can't believe that most people would think otherwise. You're harking back to many decades ago if you want to have a luggage van area on each train. Most of us have moved on somewhat since those days.
You can find a rack on the front (or back) of some buses in the US, and at least NZ, but I've only seen them used for pushchairs/buggies. I guess they could take 1 bicycle - what do they do if two people are cycling together?
 

jopsuk

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I've chucked a bike in the hold of a coach providing an emergency rail replacement service.

And it think that's perhaps an important distinction. If it's a planned replacement then a ban on bikes (on services/routes where bikes would normally be allowed) is annoying but can be coped with. If it's a replacement due to emergency engineering/other unplanned disruption then it's a different situation- in my case, I had a bike reservation on the train from Bournemouth to Edinburgh(!) and I was making something of a one way trip. The coach driver wasn't that happy but relented.
 

Robertj21a

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It would be interesting to hear what the terms of hire are for buses/coaches used on *planned* rail replacement work. Are they told that they must accept any bikes ?
 

lincolnshire

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Should we go back to the times when you had to pay to take a cycle or dog on a train again? Just how many would be honestly willing to pay for the transportation of a cycle or dog or even a pram that didn,t fold down? Remember back in the days of old when double decker buses had a storage area under the stairs behind where the conductor used to stand to put your suitcase or folded pram as there was no other space then. If you had a full size pram in them days you had to walk with it. Some people think its there god given right to demand something that they haven,t paid for in there ticket price.
 

duncombec

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I think things are a little awkward because of the fact that you can (within reason) take your bike on the train normally. I only started doing so last year, and only fairly locally, so although I'd be ready for the knackers yard when I got back, I could cycle back (or at least to the next bit with trains) if there was an emergency blockade. That obviously isn't possible if there is a landslip on the West Coast mainline and you find yourself with 50 miles to travel.

As others have said, I think more effort could be made at times on the part of the rail companies, especially given public transport and bikes should work together for fewer cars on the road (is that still policy, or did it get lost sometime over the last year?). However, I appreciate it would be difficult to come up with a consistent policy... if you said "they must be carried on coaches, but cannot be carried on buses", how would you make sure that you consistently had the same sort of vehicle available each journey, each time? There is a distinct lack of safe space on "normal buses".

Personally, I'd be happy if the situation was one of "reasonable adjustment" - where frequency isn't so much of an issue (i.e. not a rural branchline!), I'd be quite happy to wait until the next bus (30 minutes doesn't seem unreasonable) if that could take me. I think it fair to expect that I stood and held my bike throughout the journey, and if that meant I had to disembark and reembark at every station on my journey to allow other people to circulate, I'd consider that a small price to pay for the "convenience" of being permitted travel on the RRB.

Throwing another idea out, what if there was a minimum distance? You can't take your bike if the distance to be travelled by RRB is a couple of suburban stations, but you can as long as it is more than m miles or n stations?

Then again, perhaps I am unusual in thinking "reasonable" is even possible!

Should we go back to the times when you had to pay to take a cycle or dog on a train again? [...] Some people think its there god given right to demand something that they haven,t paid for in there ticket price.
I was surprised that I didn't! A nominal fee of a couple of pounds doesn't seem too bad to me - perhaps banded depending on price? (i.e. Bike cost of £1 for each £10 of fare paid after any railcards, discounts, etc.).

As for your final comment... what have they paid for in their ticket price? Should there also be a charge for suitcases? 'Corkage' for eating your own food? Using the powerpoints (where available for the public)? Given the demonization of public transport as a mobile petri dish over the last year, I really don't think we need to go any further down the Ryanair-isation of any part of our public transport network where it isn't strictly necessary, do you?
 

unlevel42

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In the "good old days" when travelling long distances with the bike (holiday/Uni) I used to dismantle the bike and wrap it up.
This would protect the bike and other train users and get the bike on the train even if there were bikes on already.
When the HST going south stopped at Chathill the three cyclists(reserved) were not allowed on because the luggage bit of the train was not at the platform and he was no longer allowed to pull the train forward. He let me on to the busy train. Presumably they cycled up to Berwick.

If taking the bike with you is essential because of a holiday/moving house, then think of the bike as luggage and plan ahead eg avoid when engineering work is common eg Sundays and Bank Holiday weekends.
If there is a crisis think yourself lucky- you won't have to walk.
Above all, don't rely on the goodwill of the railway to allow cycling to be part of your commute.

Taking your bike on the train is not "normal" in the UK and the carriage of which is covered by regulation.
Simply put, you may only take a bike on a train if you can satisfy certain conditions and subject to the decision of local staff/guard and facilities are available.
Clearly the Replacement transport does not have the ability to convey bicycles and very importantly staff and the other passengers and their possessions are not adequately protected and insured.

Luggage including suitcases have regulation on size number and weight which could result in them not being carried on Replacement transport.
 
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Wolfie

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Is that so strange? It's not that long ago that every train already had a van area with plenty space for bikes luggage etc. No booking 3 years in advance, no being treated like a leper by other passengers, just turn up and throw your bike on. Unfortunately people have been conned into thinking that the crappy system we have now is the way it should be.
And it is easy to modify buses to carry bikes. Plenty buses in the US do so, on a rack on the front. And why should people believe that buses can't carry bikes - cars ( which I believe are smaller than buses) can be convrted to carry bikes by fitting a simple rack in a matter of minutes.
Good luck with firstly sticking a bike rack on top of a double decker and secondly avoiding bridge strikes....
 

Robertj21a

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The only logical conclusion seems to be to only take bikes that can fold down. Nothing else is going to work in practice and there's no good reason for ordinary bus companies to modify their vehicles just in case they have to help out on a rail replacement.
 

peteb

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I don't cycle myself but can see the huge health benefits in encouraging folks out of towns and cities when it becomes safe to do so, travelling by train then cycling rural roads to places not served by train and back again, especially at weekends. I can also see there's temporary issues in accommodating bikes on rail replacement transport, however, which often runs at weekends. You just cannot get bikes into minibuses or taxis. Maybe if cycles were charged at a simple flat rate of say £1 per journey at weekends, then the booking computer would reject a cycle booking when rrb services are scheduled? This would not solve the frustration, disappointment, logistical nightmare for walk (cycle!!) up passengers though. And yes you can (in theory) take bikes on buses as I've seen them being loaded at Kidderminster station car park dozens of times.
 

Robertj21a

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I don't cycle myself but can see the huge health benefits in encouraging folks out of towns and cities when it becomes safe to do so, travelling by train then cycling rural roads to places not served by train and back again, especially at weekends. I can also see there's temporary issues in accommodating bikes on rail replacement transport, however, which often runs at weekends. You just cannot get bikes into minibuses or taxis. Maybe if cycles were charged at a simple flat rate of say £1 per journey at weekends, then the booking computer would reject a cycle booking when rrb services are scheduled? This would not solve the frustration, disappointment, logistical nightmare for walk (cycle!!) up passengers though. And yes you can (in theory) take bikes on buses as I've seen them being loaded at Kidderminster station car park dozens of times.
When you say that you've seen bikes loaded on buses dozens of times, I assume you really mean rail replacement coaches with luggage facilites, rather than ordinary service buses?
 

richw

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False. It is possible to make provision.
We have a specialist Dart at First southwest adapted to carry bikes. Other operators do too.
As a driver of rail replacement I was given instruction I can convey them if I have luggage room in the under lockers of the coach at my discretion. The lockers aren’t particularly wide so require the wheels to pop off, so generally only suitable for those with quick release wheels.
saying that more often than not the lockers become full with luggage and as such a cycle wouldn’t fit. I believe most TOCs don’t allow them in terms of travel

When you say that you've seen bikes loaded on buses dozens of times, I assume you really mean rail replacement coaches with luggage facilites, rather than ordinary service buses?
Blanket rule not permitted on service buses, or within the same area as passengers
 

richw

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Germany allows them in the multipurpose areas in many cities. However you rarely see one, as usually cycling is faster than riding on a stopping service bus.
We’re not in Germany. Unless the vehicle has the appropriate bike fittings in the U.K. they are not permitted under legislation in the saloon
 

Bletchleyite

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We’re not in Germany. Unless the vehicle has the appropriate bike fittings in the U.K. they are not permitted under legislation in the saloon

Is there specific legislation prohibiting bicycles, out of interest? Or is this interpretation of something like "dangerous luggage"?
 

duncombec

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Good luck with firstly sticking a bike rack on top of a double decker and secondly avoiding bridge strikes....
Who said anything about the top? US/Canadian bike racks are fitted to the front... [Edit: in fairness, Cycling UK do say that as a result of differing legislation, some fittings acceptable in the US would be illegal in the UK.]

Nothing else is going to work in practice and there's no good reason for ordinary bus companies to modify their vehicles just in case they have to help out on a rail replacement.
Nothing else is going to work, or we don't want to make anything else work? There are numerous possibilities raised on this thread that could work in the right circumstances.

I agree there is no good reason for "ordinary" bus companies to modify vehicles "just in case". But where companies work extensively, week in, week out on rail replacement, it may be worth investigating making provision on a couple of vehicles in the fleet that could then be used on specified, labelled workings, only for holders of bicycles holding a reservation (for example). If such a thing exists, make it removable, or removable in conjunction with the sort of removable seating that we now see on coaches to make space for wheelchair users in an otherwise fully-seated vehicle.

As I said... reasonable adjustment is all that would be necessary. Reasonable on the part of the rail companies to consider provision in some way rather than just folding arms and saying no, reasonable on the part of the cyclist to be prepared to make changes or wait for a suitable vehicle rather than remonstrating with staff, reasonable on the part of the RRB driver to assist both parties in making that happen.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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You can find a rack on the front (or back) of some buses in the US, and at least NZ, but I've only seen them used for pushchairs/buggies. I guess they could take 1 bicycle - what do they do if two people are cycling together?

I've seen them used for bicycles in the US. In fact I'm coming from from opposite perspective: I'd only ever seen them used for bicycles, so until your post, I hadn't realised they could also be used for buggies!

I'm not sure they're an ideal solution: They require the bus to be stopped while you load them, and I'd be a bit nervous of the possibility of a thief removing it while the bus is stopped at a traffic light or bus stop. In the case of buggies, it's not going to work if the child needs to stay in the buggy while travelling! Having said that, it's definitely better than nothing, and might not be a bad idea for RRPs - which tend not to stop as frequently as service buses, and from the point of view of theft, are less predictable so less likely to be of interest to organised crime gangs.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Not normally because the vehicles are not equipped to carry them. Fold ups perhaps. It can be done with the right vehicle - Chiltern had cycle equipped buses for their Oxford Parkway to Oxford services some years back.
It's very common for RRBs operating from Oxford to carry bikes - I must have seen it a dozen times, and not just on Chiltern services. These are invariably coaches with undercrofts.
 

richw

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Is there specific legislation prohibiting bicycles, out of interest? Or is this interpretation of something like "dangerous luggage"?
First, Stagecoach and go ahead websites all cite Safety considerations to not permit non folding bikes.
 

Robertj21a

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Who said anything about the top? US/Canadian bike racks are fitted to the front... [Edit: in fairness, Cycling UK do say that as a result of differing legislation, some fittings acceptable in the US would be illegal in the UK.]


Nothing else is going to work, or we don't want to make anything else work? There are numerous possibilities raised on this thread that could work in the right circumstances.

I agree there is no good reason for "ordinary" bus companies to modify vehicles "just in case". But where companies work extensively, week in, week out on rail replacement, it may be worth investigating making provision on a couple of vehicles in the fleet that could then be used on specified, labelled workings, only for holders of bicycles holding a reservation (for example). If such a thing exists, make it removable, or removable in conjunction with the sort of removable seating that we now see on coaches to make space for wheelchair users in an otherwise fully-seated vehicle.

As I said... reasonable adjustment is all that would be necessary. Reasonable on the part of the rail companies to consider provision in some way rather than just folding arms and saying no, reasonable on the part of the cyclist to be prepared to make changes or wait for a suitable vehicle rather than remonstrating with staff, reasonable on the part of the RRB driver to assist both parties in making that happen.
Any operator working rail replacements week in week out should now be using accessible coaches, as per the legislation. These will all have luggage facilities.
There are still not enough such vehicles available across the whole country, so not all coach operators who only do occasional rail replacements will have them.
 

unlevel42

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The biggest problem for operators of trains, buses, trams etc is insurance indemnity against claims by passengers and staff for personal and property damage caused by bicycles ie injury, damage and dirt.
While prams and luggage are covered by insurance, bicycles are not unless secure provision is provided in a separate area-even in holds.
Road traffic regulations also require that bicycles, prams and luggage do no block passageways and egresses.
Coaches, buses and trams operators would have to pay out substantial sums for this kind of insurance.
 

duncombec

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Any operator working rail replacements week in week out should now be using accessible coaches, as per the legislation. These will all have luggage facilities.
Accessible coaches, or accessible vehicles? Does the legislation actually specify coaches, or are standard low-floor double-deckers still acceptable?
(Edit: or for that matter any other accessible bus - we have a few stations here that are only accessible by "MPD"-length single deckers, Solos, etc.)
 

AB93

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And it is easy to modify buses to carry bikes. Plenty buses in the US do so, on a rack on the front. And why should people believe that buses can't carry bikes - cars ( which I believe are smaller than buses) can be convrted to carry bikes by fitting a simple rack in a matter of minutes.

US/Canadian bike racks are fitted to the front... [Edit: in fairness, Cycling UK do say that as a result of differing legislation, some fittings acceptable in the US would be illegal in the UK.]
Indeed, pedestrian safety laws in the UK do not allow buses to carry round a web of metal hanging off their fronts, with good reason. They can go on the back, but realistically that's not a sensible proposition in all but some niche examples.
 

Bletchleyite

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First, Stagecoach and go ahead websites all cite Safety considerations to not permit non folding bikes.

Yes, but is there *specific* legislation that would apply to a bicycle and not something of similar construction that isn't a bicycle, such as a large ironing board?

Accessible coaches, or accessible vehicles? Does the legislation actually specify coaches, or are standard low-floor double-deckers still acceptable?
(Edit: or for that matter any other accessible bus - we have a few stations here that are only accessible by "MPD"-length single deckers, Solos, etc.)

Any PSVAR vehicle is acceptable. This does create another piece of discrimination, though. It seems to be acceptable to discriminate against people requiring frequent toilet use (e.g. Crohn's) for some reason I do not understand, and this is the effect of the rule change, because buses (without toilets) are now used on some very long runs.
 

richw

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Accessible coaches, or accessible vehicles? Does the legislation actually specify coaches, or are standard low-floor double-deckers still acceptable?
(Edit: or for that matter any other accessible bus - we have a few stations here that are only accessible by "MPD"-length single deckers, Solos, etc.)
Accessible vehicle
 

Robertj21a

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Accessible coaches, or accessible vehicles? Does the legislation actually specify coaches, or are standard low-floor double-deckers still acceptable?
(Edit: or for that matter any other accessible bus - we have a few stations here that are only accessible by "MPD"-length single deckers, Solos, etc.)
Correct, accessible vehicle (one that meets the PSVAR conditions). I emphasised coaches as they will usually have the luggage compartments underneath whereas buses (double deck or single deck) would not normally be equipped to carry bikes or carry lots of luggage.
 
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