SWR Class 458 to be retained

[WarrenTManager]

I expect the 458's will be due a C6 overhaul soon, with interior panels and grab poles repainted.
I expect this will be combined with the planned refurbishment.
They can't possibly get away without installing power sockets on the pompey line though!

There were about 20 458s due C6 before hand back and is in progress now. As it was assumed they were going there wasn’t a massive scope, mainly air systems, brakes, sanding, nothing like the 2009-2012 C6. Anything inside in regards dilapidation would be covered by Porterbrook hand back inspection and any issues either repaired, replaced or Porterbrook compensated.

 

[Mikey C]

if it's just 28 being retained, is that likely the end for 458531-6, and as such the very end for the Class 460?

I'm looking forward to the Speculative thread debating where the ex Class 460 units will go

 

[43096]

I'm looking forward to the Speculative thread debating where the ex Class 460 units will go

They can stay where they are until Alstom and SWR sort out the Aventras.

 

[DorkingMain]

As the intention is to replace the 442s on Portsmouth Fast services and provide 2+2 seating on the 1Ps you would expect utilisation to be similar as was planned for the 442s.



Incorrect - I posted the restriction out the sectional appendix earlier today. It is no more than a single 444 or 450 permitted west of Poole there is no reason to expect a 458 would thus be allowed to be planned in multiple.

Whilst 8 car 450s had previously run to Weymouth in limited numbers that is no longer allowed in the 2014 sectional appendix update.

Interesting. There's an error in their material issued to staff then - the guide I have from before I left is from far later than 2014.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Interesting. There's an error in their material issued to staff then - the guide I have from before I left is from far later than 2014.

Aside from the Olympics there was an 8 car 450 booked for a timetable maybe it threw up problems.

The restriction does make sense though as the traction pack is the same on a 444 as a 450 so 8-450 draws the same power as 10-444.

8 car sets of 400 stock were fine as they drew less power with no A/

 

[WarrenTManager]

I wonder which carriage will be going then?

I guess if they keep the 2 with toilets it's the one with motors that would be going. Which I think would be similar to the original 458/0

The BZ vehicle which is the ex-460 vehicle will be going. The intermediate vehicle with the universal access toilet is a motored vehicle. 741xx also known as the BL vehicle.

458/5
current formation is BJ-BZx-BK-BL-BM for 8501-30

8531-8536 is AAx-AC-AF-AG-AHx the Codes are different as the 460 code was retained. The AB, AD, AE and remaining AC, AF and AG vehicles became BZB, BZC etc. With the last letter a clue of its 460 origin.

the driving vehicles got messier as 8531,8533,8534 and 8535 have the eight original AA cars so they have a AA and a AHA. 8532 and 8536 have AH (luggage vans), so they are AAH and AH.

getting shot of the 460 vehicles will make life a lot easier.

so the formation will be for the retained units BJ-BK-BL-BM

(one assumes 334 are CN-CO-CP)

 

[Pete_uk]

Are any of these still 'slab-ended' or have they all had more 'normal' looking front doors fitted?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are any of these still 'slab-ended' or have they all had more 'normal' looking front doors fitted?

They all have Desiro-like gangway cabs, which I believe was done for commonality of parts.

 

[Pete_uk]

Thanks Mr B

 

[43096]

They all have Desiro-like gangway cabs, which I believe was done for commonality of parts.

Sort-of. The units needed gangways as they were to operate on routes with short platforms / ASDO and access was needed between units. The original gangways had long been staff only so had to be replaced, and in any case the Class 460 conversions needed gangways fitting.

 

[JonathanH]

Sort-of. The units needed gangways as they were to operate on routes with short platforms / ASDO and access was needed between units. The original gangways had long been staff only so had to be replaced, and in any case the Class 460 conversions needed gangways fitting.

That doesn't stop the guards on class 458s generally locking the through gangways. Hopefully, the mainline guards won't have the same attitude as those on the Windsor lines.

 

[DorkingMain]

That doesn't stop the guards on class 458s generally locking the through gangways. Hopefully, the mainline guards won't have the same attitude as those on the Windsor lines.

Problem is the design of the cabs / gangways. The only guards panels on the trains are in coaches 3 and 8 (next to the PRM area) so for normal dispatch you need to be in the middle cab.

If you have the gangway open, the side areas of the middle cab are so small you basically can't move - by contrast on the Desiro they're just about spacious enough to use with the gangway open. The flaps on the sides are also very awkward to open and close meaning it quickly becomes a nightmare to work with the gangway open on a stopping service.

On long distance services you're doing far fewer stops. I would also hope they're adapted with more guards panels. That would eliminate the need to work from the middle with the gangway closed.

 

[bramling]

Aside from the Olympics there was an 8 car 450 booked for a timetable maybe it threw up problems.

The restriction does make sense though as the traction pack is the same on a 444 as a 450 so 8-450 draws the same power as 10-444.

8 car sets of 400 stock were fine as they drew less power with no A/

I remember a railtour which ran CEP+CIG+VEP to Weymouth, seemed to pull okay on the climb out of Weymouth.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I remember a railtour which ran CEP+CIG+VEP to Weymouth, seemed to pull okay on the climb out of Weymouth.

There’s a difference between one special working which can be closely managed and ran at a time before the Weymouth service was doubled in frequency and running something in excess of the power draw regularly.

 

[bramling]

There’s a difference between one special working which can be closely managed and ran at a time before the Weymouth service was doubled in frequency and running something in excess of the power draw regularly.

I was sort of expecting the train to be a bit sluggish on the run, but they flew up the bank. Agreed it was a one-off.

 

[antharro]

Weymouth also sees the odd 450, I took one during strike action 2-3 years ago.

Weymouth sees more 450s than you'd think. Especially a couple of years back when some fasts were comprised of 444+450 with the 450 on the country end.

Funnily enough, there was a 450 at Weymouth at the same time the last 442 service arrived down there back in January 2007.

 

[Snow1964]

The restriction does make sense though as the traction pack is the same on a 444 as a 450 so 8-450 draws the same power as 10-444.

8 car sets of 400 stock were fine as they drew less power with no A/

Although they are both same traction pack, I thought they had different limits as won’t get three 5car sets coupled

From memory the 450s are restricted to 1500amps, the 444s are 1800, design max is 2050 amps (but has never been used as substations were never upgraded)

There certainly used to be 2 or 3 older weaker substations on Portsmouth direct where 3 x 458s on unrestricted power would be more iffy than 2 x 458 to Weymouth.

 

[43096]

There certainly used to be 2 or 3 older weaker substations on Portsmouth direct where 3 x 458s on unrestricted power would be more iffy than 2 x 458 to Weymouth.

12-450 formations run on the Portsmouth direct, so can’t see why 12-458 would be any more of a problem?

 

[DelW]

In their original (4 car) form, 458s were prohibited from south of Haslemere on the Direct (I remember that the pre-refurb-farewell railtour had to turn back there). Which poses some questions that someone on here might be able to answer:

Does that restriction still apply in rebuilt (5 car) form?

Was/is it based on an actual issue on the route, or was it just that since there's no need for them to use the line, there was no point in carrying out the relevant checks?

If there was/is an actual issue, what work may now be needed to remove it?

TIA for any information.

 

[pompeyfan]

5 cars made it to Fratton regularly for door mods, and 10 cars have called at every station as part of ASDO calibration.

 

[swt_passenger]

12-450 formations run on the Portsmouth direct, so can’t see why 12-458 would be any more of a problem?

I suppose it depends if a 458 has the same software power capping automatically applied. A 12.450 is capped at about 55% of its theoretical power. The worst case scenario at the moment is an unleashed 12.458 is a much higher draw than that. But as ever, won’t they sort that out before they start running?

 

[43096]

I suppose it depends if a 458 has the same software power capping automatically applied. A 12.450 is capped at about 55% of its theoretical power. The worst case scenario at the moment is an unleashed 12.458 is a much higher draw than that. But as ever, won’t they sort that out before they start running?

When they were 4-car units the power consumption setup on the 458s was configured for 12 car formations. It’ll be a configuration option in the TMS.

 

[dingdinger]

That doesn't stop the guards on class 458s generally locking the through gangways. Hopefully, the mainline guards won't have the same attitude as those on the Windsor lines.

Not about attitude but more about what is practical. As a previous poster has mentioned with the many stops and lack of saloon gops and space in the cabs most guards will lock the gangway doors out on 458. If you ask to come through I'm sure they would open them to let you.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not about attitude but more about what is practical. As a previous poster has mentioned with the many stops and lack of saloon gops and space in the cabs most guards will lock the gangway doors out on 458. If you ask to come through I'm sure they would open them to let you.

Something which won’t be possible on the Portsmouth Direct anyway due to the whole series of short platforms requiring passengers to often move through the train.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Wow! This is awesome news! Why would you want to replace a young train that is comfortable and a great rain to ride?

The Class 458 is a great train, and I'm glad it will still be in service. Even better, it will be used on faster routes now! The only question is: what will happen to the fifth coach that is being removed from the train?

 

[Bayum]

Why are they reducing to 4 car if they’re replacing 5/10 car 442s?

 

[JonathanH]

Why are they reducing to 4 car if they’re replacing 5/10 car 442s?

Different carriage lengths. Think of it as how would a 100m / 200m train best replace a 115m / 230m one.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Anyway, having done some calculations, reconfiguring the 458s to 4 car would come at the expense of losing 36 carriages of a current total of 180 carriages. However, this can create 9 more 4-car 458s, bringing the the total of class 458s in 4 car formation to 45. The only issue might be the missing of a cab carriage.

 

[bramling]

Why are they reducing to 4 car if they’re replacing 5/10 car 442s?

10/442 = 230m
10/458 = 200m
12/458 = 240m

 

[Goldfish62]

10/442 = 230m
10/458 = 200m
12/458 = 240m

And the small issue of being restricted to 75mph in 5-car form.