ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[alangla]

Oh dear. More strike ballots over pay & this time it seems to be all 3 rail unions plus Unite

'Astonishing': Strike threat over 'scandalous' failure to pay ScotRail staff after expected £1bn Covid subsidy

SCOTRAIL faces strike action over a "slap in the face" pay deal while the cost of Scotland's railways to the taxpayer is set to soar by…

www.heraldscotland.com

 

[380101]

Oh dear. More strike ballots over pay & this time it seems to be all 3 rail unions plus Unite

'Astonishing': Strike threat over 'scandalous' failure to pay ScotRail staff after expected £1bn Covid subsidy

SCOTRAIL faces strike action over a "slap in the face" pay deal while the cost of Scotland's railways to the taxpayer is set to soar by…

www.heraldscotland.com

It should be noted that whilst ASLEF are mentioned in this article, it is only depot fleet drivers represented by ASLEF that are included in this threatened action. Mainline ScotRail drivers negotiate their pay separately from all other grades and at a different time of the year. No mainline driver will be balloted on the issues mentioned in the above article.

 

[father_jack]

If you're talking about what we were talking about, this is in relation to people who just don't turn up to work their Sunday, putting out the employer, their colleagues and passengers if too many were at it... It would seem to be entirely at odds with the premises of "The Angry Silence".

Indeed. It's sad to see how polarised people get about unions as a result of their programming since the 1970s by the polpular press/beano/dandy etc. The unions are far from the monolith and are real people.

Back on topic but connected to the human element mentioned above, my biggest thing about the whole Sunday shambles is that the management still get two days off every week, one being Sunday so are never about when the "excrement collides with the cooling device". And while their "Mirabelle and Tarquin" get to see granny or go to the park on a Sunday "Gary and Sophie's" dad or mam are off to work again............

 

[43096]

Oh dear. More strike ballots over pay & this time it seems to be all 3 rail unions plus Unite

'Astonishing': Strike threat over 'scandalous' failure to pay ScotRail staff after expected £1bn Covid subsidy

SCOTRAIL faces strike action over a "slap in the face" pay deal while the cost of Scotland's railways to the taxpayer is set to soar by…

www.heraldscotland.com

The Unite spokesman does himself not favours with a spectacular lack of understanding of where the extra subsidy has gone: covering the wages of his members.

Back on topic but connected to the human element mentioned above, my biggest thing about the whole Sunday shambles is that the management still get two days off every week, one being Sunday so are never about when the "excrement collides with the cooling device". And while their "Mirabelle and Tarquin" get to see granny or go to the park on a Sunday "Gary and Sophie's" dad or mam are off to work again............

Oh the usual anti-management nonsense. Remind me how many days the workers work per week? How many hours do they do?

 

[father_jack]

Oh the usual anti-management nonsense. Remind me how many days the workers work per week? How many hours do they do?

The prosecution rests, hook line and etc....

 

[Starmill]

Aren't most railway management grade staff on annual salaries rather than working an hourly rate too? That is to say that if overtime is in the interest of the business it is part of the job, and doesn't come with extra pay. Indeed most office jobs work on this basis. Wheras overtime among customer facing staff is likely to be paid?

 

[43096]

The prosecution rests, hook line and etc....

Didn’t answer the questions, I see.

 

[Scotrail88]

Do enjoy the public ownership argument - especially when Transport Scotland have told them no to pay any more.
why would it bother Abellio if there is a EMA in place abs the legacy is with the government.

they are just running it and being puppet until the official franchise runs out

 

[43066]

Indeed. It's sad to see how polarised people get about unions as a result of their programming since the 1970s by the polpular press/beano/dandy etc. The unions are far from the monolith and are real people.

Fully agree with this - a point that is lost on many.

Back on topic but connected to the human element mentioned above, my biggest thing about the whole Sunday shambles is that the management still get two days off every week, one being Sunday so are never about when the "excrement collides with the cooling device". And while their "Mirabelle and Tarquin" get to see granny or go to the park on a Sunday "Gary and Sophie's" dad or mam are off to work again............

But not so much with this. This kind of talk is unhelpful and plays into those exact same polarised, stereotypical views that people outside the industry hold about unions.

Sadly these discussions always end up with the same people arguing from entrenched positions. As informed union members the best thing we can do is try to educate/explain what is going on behind the headlines in a neutral way (frustrating as that can be at times!).

 

[father_jack]

Fully agree with this - a point that is lost on many.



But not so much with this. This kind of talk is unhelpful and plays into those exact same polarised, stereotypical views that people outside the industry hold about unions.

Sadly these discussions always end up with the same people arguing from entrenched positions. As informed union members the best thing we can do is try to educate/explain what is going on behind the headlines in a neutral way (frustrating as that can be at times!).

A balanced voice but up to a point. I'll work every Sunday if I get a replacement day off in the week. And not even two days off together like a lot of "normal" people (not just manglement ) have every week.

All the people who turn up at a station for a train on a Sunday don't care whether Satan has sold them a ticket for it or whether he is driving or guarding it, they just want to get where they are going and the pay or industrial relations are irrelevant to them.

But something has to give and I can assure you that the trade union movement as a whole is open to negotiate Sunday into the week for all grades.

However as long as there are enough individuals within to keep the show going in it's current format the TOCs will be happy to bumble along while still pushing the blame back on the whole trade union movement when a situation like at Scotrail at present arises.

 

[Unstoppable]

They need to get a grip and just do their job. They haven't lost any pay or their jobs and they're still moaning. The sooner the railway becomes public the better

 

[Watershed]

The sooner the railway becomes public the better

I don't see what difference the ownership makes in this dispute. How would the Scottish OLR (which is taking over Scotrail in a year's time) be able to handle it any better than Abellio?

 

[43066]

A balanced voice but up to a point. I'll work every Sunday if I get a replacement day off in the week. And not even two days off together like a lot of "normal" people (not just manglement ) have every week.

Ha at “manglement”!!!

I guess my way of looking at that is that if your Sundays are truly inside then they are effectively absorbed into your average four day week (albeit you can end up with some long runs of consecutive days worked). I can understand committed Sundays being more of an issue for people because if you can’t get cover for them you are then in effect working an extra day that week.

But something has to give and I can assure you that the trade union movement as a whole is open to negotiate Sunday into the week for all grades.

However as long as there are enough individuals within to keep the show going in it's current format the TOCs will be happy to bumble along while still pushing the blame back on the whole trade union movement when a situation like at Scotrail at present arises.

Yep. People generally (and especially on here) don’t seem to realise that it’s the TOCs who want Sundays kept outside the the base roster, and dependent on overtime, because that works out cheaper. But of course it’s much easier to blame the unions for everything.

 

[Scotrail88]

I don't see what difference the ownership makes in this dispute. How would the Scottish OLR (which is taking over Scotrail in a year's time) be able to handle it any better than Abellio?

This is the biggest laugh.
Abellio cannot give away pay increases as are in a standstill transfer period for the franchise.
This is ultimately transport Scotland nee Government pulling the strings.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there, by any chance, an election in Scotland soon?

 

[father_jack]

Ha at “manglement”!!!

I guess my way of looking at that is that if your Sundays are truly inside then they are effectively absorbed into your average four day week (albeit you can end up with some long runs of consecutive days worked). I can understand committed Sundays being more of an issue for people because if you can’t get cover for them you are then in effect working an extra day that week.



Yep. People generally (and especially on here) don’t seem to realise that it’s the TOCs who want Sundays kept outside the the base roster, and dependent on overtime, because that works out cheaper. But of course it’s much easier to blame the unions for everything.

"Manglement" is a great word, especially when I use it to their faces when they are making mischief instead of dealing with the real things wrong in the job !!!

I did 33 sundays out of 52 in a year period only recently (time and a fifth pay) with never a replacement day off in the week instead. Plus inevitable rest day works (flat rate pay). We used to worry about running up to the 14th day in a row and having to take a day off and letting the place be short staffed and colleagues working harder. And all because we were fools trying to pay off mortgages quickly or pay for nice holidays where you spent the first 3 days in bed recovering from the doing the overtime !!!

In hindsight we should never have done it because all it served to do was entrench the said manglement into not recruiting and making excessive overtime be the norm.

 

[Starmill]

I've never seen the office managers working on Sundays, they work Monday to Friday.
Traincrew work a 4 or 5 day week over Monday to Saturday but Sunday is a non working day, as a result Sunday is overtime & will remain that way until it is made a working day.

Perhaps I'm just lucky in my past experience of professional services, but it was the case that urgent client deadlines would result in weekend working if the business need were great enough and people could rearrange their lives around it. This would be exchanged for a day off in a quieter period however rather than taken as overtime. I'm surprised to hear no railway manager would work an exceptional Sunday if the business need were overwhelming.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've never seen the office managers working on Sundays, they work Monday to Friday.

Most ‘office managers’ I know do rather more than their contracted hours, often working at weekends, late into the evening etc. You might them see them do this, as they’ll be at home.

 

[320320]

The guards are quite right to take this action IMO, although they’ve probably picked the worst possible time to have an effect.

If scotrail want to run a service dependant on enforced overtime then they should be paying a suitable premium to the people covering the shifts.

 

[Bald Rick]

The whole point of this post is about traincrew working Sundays as overtime, if they worked the Sundays as part of a 4 day week then the work in the week they are booked to work would also need covering. This would be solved by overtime or employing more staff.

If traincrew worked the Sundays & got the days back by gaining more leave days, then that would need more staff or rest day work to cover their work days.

The traincrew side of the railways is not comparable to the office workers side of the industry, the managers work 8am - 3pm over Monday to Friday but are sometimes more flexible as long as the work is completed.

The traincrew side of the job is 24/7 jobs worked via shifts averaging 35hrs over usually a 4 or 5 day week, it's comparing chalk & cheese.

Yes I know all that. I was simply responding to your statement that ‘Office Managers don’t work Sundays’. They do, sometimes, to keep the job going, and they’re not paid for it either (unless specifically through an allowance for on call duties).

 

[northernbelle]

Yes I know all that. I was simply responding to your statement that ‘Office Managers don’t work Sundays’. They do, sometimes, to keep the job going, and they’re not paid for it either (unless specifically through an allowance for on call duties).

Indeed. The last 12 months have shown how important both front line and "back of house" management staff are. Many of those work on an annual salary basis and regularly exceed their contracted hours and days with no reward.

The train service wouldn't have been delivered without the front line, but the planning and reorganisation required wouldn't have happened with dedicated managers, planners and administrators in the background.

The fact that there is no revenue to pay the wages further shows the value of those managers/commercial posts when negotiating finances and operating terms with government.

 

[scotraildriver]

A person I know who works in planning /diagramming has been working silly hours, at home, unpaid any extra to accommodate the frequent timetable changes over the last year. If there's one thing I really noticed when I joined the railway is that front line staff think that all the managers/office staff are unecessary, get paid too much and don't really do anything. I don't know why they think that, as most have no idea what managers do, the responsibility they have or hours they work , but it is a very common train of thought.

 

[InOban]

Whereas in the NHS the frontline staff have also been working unpaid overtime, not just the management.

 

[cakefiend]

A person I know who works in planning /diagramming has been working silly hours, at home, unpaid any extra to accommodate the frequent timetable changes over the last year. If there's one thing I really noticed when I joined the railway is that front line staff think that all the managers/office staff are unecessary, get paid too much and don't really do anything. I don't know why they think that, as most have no idea what managers do, the responsibility they have or hours they work , but it is a very common train of thought.

They often forget that many office staff and management (because many aren't managers either) are actually paid less - sometimes significantly less. Still, that's got no bearing on this discussion.

 

[father_jack]

A person I know who works in planning /diagramming has been working silly hours, at home, unpaid any extra to accommodate the frequent timetable changes over the last year. If there's one thing I really noticed when I joined the railway is that front line staff think that all the managers/office staff are unecessary, get paid too much and don't really do anything. I don't know why they think that, as most have no idea what managers do, the responsibility they have or hours they work , but it is a very common train of thought.

I don't say this to inflame but maybe that person needs a union or a stronger union.

However it cannot be denied that there are such things as management bean counting jobs and plenty of hidden managers after "falls from grace" or whose faces no longer fit in "projects"/made up roles.

Whereas in the NHS the frontline staff have also been working unpaid overtime, not just the management.

Again, I'm not saying this to inflame but application forms and careers websites have always been available for railway jobs.

 

[Starmill]

I don't say this to inflame but maybe that person needs a union or a stronger union.

What makes you say that? In general people working unpaid overtime are committed to the long term success of the business, and often have a direct stake in it. What would their being in a stronger union do, apart from damage the long term success of the business?

Again, I'm not saying this to inflame but application forms and careers websites have always been available for railway jobs.

What do you think would happen when you or yours need healthcare if we deny funding such that there's a mass exodus of staff from the NHS?

In both of the above cases the question is how do we make the most effective use of limited public resources. Unfortunately some trade unions are much better than others at engaging with that.

 

[father_jack]

What makes you say that? In general people working unpaid overtime are committed to the long term success of the business, and often have a direct stake in it. What would their being in a stronger union do, apart from damage the long term success of the business?

I was addressing the initial post that said-

A person I know who works in planning /diagramming has been working silly hours, at home, unpaid any extra to accommodate the frequent timetable changes over the last year.

As for the rest of your post I don't agree that the railway works that in a way that gives people "direct stakes".

My reference to a "stronger union" referred to the TSSA compared to the RMT......

What do you think would happen when you or yours need healthcare if we deny funding such that there's a mass exodus of staff from the NHS?

In both of the above cases the question is how do we make the most effective use of limited public resources. Unfortunately some trade unions are much better than others at engaging with that.

But the debate is not about that, it's about how one industry pays it's employees for the work they do and that how may be the fault of a pesky trade union.

 

[43066]

Most ‘office managers’ I know do rather more than their contracted hours, often working at weekends, late into the evening etc. You might them see them do this, as they’ll be at home.

Unfortunately corporate culture in the U.K. is such that people are generally expected to sell their soul to their jobs, and to work considerable amounts of unpaid and unappreciated overtime. This culture extends to people judging their colleagues for “clock watching” or “not pulling their weight”. Of course this plays into the hands of employers who can get away with employing less staff than they need.

I did it myself for years and frankly, it’s a mug’s game.

Whereas in the NHS the frontline staff have also been working unpaid overtime, not just the management.

Well more fool them. People in safety critical/responsible roles should not be exhausted when they are at work. Maybe this is part of the reason why the NHS is unfit for purpose.

I don't say this to inflame but maybe that person needs a union or a stronger union.

Indeed. It’s an extraordinary and pathetic mentality we have in this country, where people actively resent workers trying to protect themselves, and despise trade unions, often while working copious amounts of unpaid overtime themselves! As you said above this is down to daily mail programming in many cases. Or perhaps it’s a form of snobbery where unions are seen as “working class” and everyone aspires to be middle class these days. Even when they’re earning £25k in a dull office job with a car on finance and credit card debt!

Of course the usual suspects on here have been jealously complaining about train crew wages and Ts and Cs for years, Covid is just the latest vehicle to do this. All the faux concern about needing to save public money makes me laugh. I doubt these same people would begrudge nurses getting a pay rise, or mind the government spending billions paying people £30k to sit at home doing nothing.

What’s the saying? “They’d rather steal their neighbour’s last fiver then split a tenner with them”.

 

[Starmill]

But the debate is not about that, it's about how one industry pays it's employees for the work they do and that how may be the fault of a pesky trade union.

Well it sounds like there's an outright demand for more pay to me, because it's not paid overtime that's being demanded by industial action, but premium rate overtime. Where would the RMT propose the resources come from? Cuts to the salary of other employees? How would a sustainable solution be found? What effective resolutions are available?

As for the rest of your post I don't agree that the railway works that in a way that gives people "direct stakes".

Why not? A large number of people in senior leadership appear to be personally invested in the industry to me. People like Mark Hopwood for example.

 

[father_jack]

The industry has had 20 years to sort the sundays out.

We started talking about a train planner and your for example is an MD ?