FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[b0b]

I don't really doubt that cessna has admitted to both the RPI + BTP that he knew he was in 1st class without an appropriate ticket and apparently the RPIs initial demand for a PF was interpreted as a refusal to pay by the RPI/BTP.

The RPI/BTP can lie - so he might have been told he was going to get a PF demand in the mail in order to get him to confess to the fact he was knowingly in the first class section and he knowingly did not have the correct ticket ...

The OP needs to write down as much as possible about what he remembers from the encounter, specifically if he confessed. Also if he has written to FCC as he apparently has, he needs a copy of that, because I'm thinking now FCC has a written confession.

He's going to lose big if they take it to court, and it sounds like they are going to, since its an easy case now.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure the OP has now contacted FCC by email or phone, so we should wait and see what they said/say to him.

 

[cessna]

I wonder why cessna said;



First, why stand? There will always be seats.
Second, if it WAS a 317 then first class is in the middle so why were these the first seats you came to? You must have gone by loads!

Now, this morning, I was in first class (declassified though) and did look around and notice that on some 317s they only have the old-school 1st stickers on the windows on each side of the compartment. There was nothing on ANY window (as if they'd recently replaced the anti-etching film perhaps?) and most of the antimacassars were missing, two of which had been stuck to the wall!

So, if the circumstances were right (and boy do there have to be lots of coincidences) then you might just be able to argue that you might mistakenly think it was standard class if people were standing on both sides of the doorway.

On a 317, FCC could (and should) make it as obvious as it is on a 365 or 321. I accept that some of the 317s may be better marked than others. I doubt the OP would remember which one he was on! Nor would it likely be recorded on any paperwork, although FCC (or the OP if attending court) could perhaps find out the train that ran that night and seek to inspect how clearly marked it was. Of course, he has admitted (on here at least) that he knew all along.

Few points. Firstly, I don't know, or care about the classes of trains. The first class section was in the middle of the coach I happend to get on. The seat I sat in was right next to the door I entered through.

And I usually stand because I take trains between Cambridge and Peterborough, often in the mornings and afternoon.

 

[jon0844]

You don't need to know the class of train, but on some they're at the end(s) and the other it is in the middle - if you're a regular passenger, I'm sure you already know this. You must still go through an internal door, although it's a manual door. All you need to know is that on the exterior door is a '1' to signify where the first class section is, and inside there are stickers before you enter the compartment(s). There will be 'first class' on every available seat and there should also be stickers on the windows. I accept that you may not have all, and in the day, where all seats may be taken, it can be hard to tell you're in first class.

Did you sit by the door in order to make a quick getaway if you saw revenue staff? And did they approach from both side and close the doors to stop people leaving? If they're doing their job properly, this is what they'll do.

Also, if they remember who left, they'll still do them afterwards. The fact that the person moved makes it completely clear that they knew they were in the wrong section, yet only moved when they saw revenue staff. I'd say that this would be an immediate acceptance of guilt.

Sorry to sound harsh and arrogant, but because you knew it was first class and thought you wouldn't get caught, why do you think you should be offered a penalty fare and not a court appearance?

Also, on the more crowded daytime services, do you ever upgrade yourself to first class then?

 

[flymo]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but are there any trains about this time with declassified First Class. i.e., Sorry I usually travel on the xx : xx train and it has no First Class type of thing?

 

[Deerfold]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but are there any trains about this time with declassified First Class. i.e., Sorry I usually travel on the xx : xx train and it has no First Class type of thing?

Not to/from Peterborough unfortunately.

 

[flymo]

Not to/from Peterborough unfortunately.

Fair enough, just a thought.

 

[cessna]

You don't need to know the class of train, but on some they're at the end(s) and the other it is in the middle - if you're a regular passenger, I'm sure you already know this. You must still go through an internal door, although it's a manual door. All you need to know is that on the exterior door is a '1' to signify where the first class section is, and inside there are stickers before you enter the compartment(s). There will be 'first class' on every available seat and there should also be stickers on the windows. I accept that you may not have all, and in the day, where all seats may be taken, it can be hard to tell you're in first class.

Did you sit by the door in order to make a quick getaway if you saw revenue staff? And did they approach from both side and close the doors to stop people leaving? If they're doing their job properly, this is what they'll do.

Also, if they remember who left, they'll still do them afterwards. The fact that the person moved makes it completely clear that they knew they were in the wrong section, yet only moved when they saw revenue staff. I'd say that this would be an immediate acceptance of guilt.

Sorry to sound harsh and arrogant, but because you knew it was first class and thought you wouldn't get caught, why do you think you should be offered a penalty fare and not a court appearance?

Also, on the more crowded daytime services, do you ever upgrade yourself to first class then?

I've said it a few times, but I'll say it again, I took the first seat I saw, which happened to be in first. I didn't sit by the door to make a quick getaway but rather because it was the first seat I came to. If it happened to be a standard seat, I would have sat there anyway.
I didn't sit there because I wanted to sit in first, I say there because it was the first seat I came to, as I've said many times before.

The internal doors were slid open on both sides. Infact, I didn't even realise there where doors untill I was made to stand in the external doorway.

And no, I don't ever 'upgrade' myself to first if it's busy. I have never sat in first class in my life.

 

[jon0844]

Okay, please accept my apologies. I thought you were the same person as the OP that wrote:

I had a standard class ticket and as I boarded the train I grabbed the first seat that came to view, a first class seat. I knew it was first class and I know I was in the wrong but often taking late trains I didn't expect a ticket inspector to come through the train.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but are there any trains about this time with declassified First Class. i.e., Sorry I usually travel on the xx : xx train and it has no First Class type of thing?

No, it's usually only trains that have started from somewhere like Welwyn Garden City, although there are some that go to/from Hitchin or Letchworth.

The ones for Peterborough and Cambridge will always have first class.

 

[EltonRoad]

The OP seems to be making it quite clear that he sat in the first seat he came to, which was in First Class, despite knowing it was wrong to do so.

Frankly, what he knew and what he didn't know is irrelevant, because he can't really prove it. What matters is what he said to the guard. This is the part I'm not clear about. Did he admit guilt, or not?

On seeing the RPI he could have thought quickly and just said he wanted to upgrade to First. But presumably he didn't do that otherwise they wouldn't have made an issue out of it. My guess is he did, in some way, indicate he knew he shouldn't be there. In which case, maybe this gives them grounds to prosecute.

Apologies to cessna if this is completely not what happened.

 

[cessna]

Sorry to sound harsh and arrogant, but because you knew it was first class and thought you wouldn't get caught, why do you think you should be offered a penalty fare and not a court appearance?

Because I was clearly given the option and chose to pay a penalty fare. If it was always their intention to prosecute then fair enough, but tell me that and don't give me an option if one clearly doesn't exist.

EltonRoad, I fessed up to the inspector that I knew it was first class.

 

[radamfi]

cessna, have you contacted FCC yet?

 

[cessna]

cessna, have you contacted FCC yet?

I sent off my sheet that came with the notice of intention to prosecute within a couple of hours of reading the letter. I phoned the prosecutions dept. a number of times on Monday, got no answer. Tried again yesterday, again no answer, so I left a message explaining the situation and stating that I wanted to pay the penalty fare. I left my number and reference number so they can get back to me, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[jon0844]

I had to smirk this morning when someone was let through the gateline with an off-peak ticket, but warned he couldn't use his ticket on the next (peak) service. I was there and witnessed it.

He boarded it anyway and it was funny to see him caught by the very person who had warned him - having boarded himself to grip the train.

What surprised me is that after a lot of arguing, with the person claiming he wasn't warned, even though the RPI said he had been warned BY HIM, having been let through after the gate rejected his ticket, he was told not to do it again, had his ticket stamped and was let off!

He was accompanied by my 'favourite FCC RPI' who was heading straight for first class... He would definitely take no prisoners.

 

[bengolding]

I just wish that your favourite RPI boarded my FCC Thameslink service from St Pancras to Harpenden yesterday. If they did, they would have got at least 6 penalty fares in my First Class compartment!

 

[asylumxl]

I just wish that your favourite RPI boarded my FCC Thameslink service from St Pancras to Harpenden yesterday. If they did, they would have got at least 6 penalty fares in my First Class compartment!

I rarely see RPI on TL services. When I do it's usually south of the river.

 

[jon0844]

I am getting checked at least once every single day now, on the trains themselves, so FCC must be on a real mission at the moment (on the GN side at least). The gatelines have been left open a few times at Hatfield, suggesting that they're moving gateline staff onto trains to make up numbers. I presume this is only temporary, but with the gates open it is probably paying dividends as people get tempted to try it on.

I even saw BTP at Hornsey station yesterday on the way home, so it seems they're being deadly serious. And, good on them. As long as they play by the rules.

Nabbing people who upgraded to first class is a pretty open and shut case I would have thought. The upside might be that anyone who felt there was no point in having a FC ticket because it was a free-for-all will now continue to buy them, which is good for all of us.

With regards to my friendly RPI, I sometimes get on the 321 and stand in the doorway between the two first class compartments. It's quiet there and it's quickest off at King's Cross. Had I done so today, I wonder if he'd have considered me to be in first class and tried to give me a ticket!!

 

[b0b]

With regards to my friendly RPI, I sometimes get on the 321 and stand in the doorway between the two first class compartments. It's quiet there and it's quickest off at King's Cross. Had I done so today, I wonder if he'd have considered me to be in first class and tried to give me a ticket!!

sounds like a pretty open and shut case that you're in first class...

 

[jon0844]

There are doors separating each compartment, so I am sure that this area is NOT first class. If you stood in the doorway, with no seats or carpets, and no stickers warning you that you're in first class - I would find it hard to believe that it is counted as first class.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Silverlink always deemed that part to be First Class too.

 

[jon0844]

I shall have to check what FCC says then. I'm sure this has been discussed on here before. Both compartments are closed off by sliding doors, to give privacy to those inside first class, so I really don't believe that a doorway (which isn't marked as first class only - or there would be stickers on the outer doors) is first class.

But, I'll stand (literally) corrected.

 

[Flamingo]

In FGW, the entire carriage, including doorways and vestibule areas is First Class. Para 39 of the CoC

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.

We've been told to enforce it now, and although the message is starting to get through (except for one to$$er with a folding bike from Reading in the mornings, who is a slow learner), there were LOTS of arguments in the beginning.

 

[yorkie]

An HST with FC at one end of the train is a world away from a pair of 321s with First scattered around the train.

Also vestibules on 321s are intended for people to regularly have to stand in them. This isn't really the case on Mk3s.

 

[jon0844]

I am 99.99% sure I am correct, but given there's doubt on here - I just know that I would have been given a penalty fare, or had the police called, had I stood there this morning!

 

[daikilo]

I sent off my sheet that came with the notice of intention to prosecute within a couple of hours of reading the letter. I phoned the prosecutions dept. a number of times on Monday, got no answer. Tried again yesterday, again no answer, so I left a message explaining the situation and stating that I wanted to pay the penalty fare. I left my number and reference number so they can get back to me, but I'm not holding my breath.

As you will have seen, I was concerned by what you were putting in print, but this time you are spot on in your defence.

That said, pity I previously saw your admitted thinking as you boarded the train.

 

[Flamingo]

An HST with FC at one end of the train is a world away from a pair of 321s with First scattered around the train.

Also vestibules on 321s are intended for people to regularly have to stand in them. This isn't really the case on Mk3s.

Fair enough, just giving the view from Western region

 

[Helvellyn]

Now in the days when the yellow stripe was universal I think it was pretty obvious what was First Class and what wasn't! I wouldn't stand in the vestibule of a FGW First Class coach, as that yellow stripe does go above the doors. On a 321 though, it's not clear, especially as FCC don't use the yellow stripe to denote First Class. From a SWT viewpoint, on 158/159 and 444 stock, the vestibule by the First Class accommodation isn't treated as First Class. Don't try sneak in though and grab a seat - the commuters are sometimes better than the Guards/RPIs at spotting this trick and don't take kindly to it!

 

[Fred26]

Now in the days when the yellow stripe was universal I think it was pretty obvious what was First Class and what wasn't! I wouldn't stand in the vestibule of a FGW First Class coach, as that yellow stripe does go above the doors. On a 321 though, it's not clear, especially as FCC don't use the yellow stripe to denote First Class. From a SWT viewpoint, on 158/159 and 444 stock, the vestibule by the First Class accommodation isn't treated as First Class. Don't try sneak in though and grab a seat - the commuters are sometimes better than the Guards/RPIs at spotting this trick and don't take kindly to it!

There are doors between first class and standard class on an FCC 321. No need for a 'yellow stripe', doors are much clearer.

 

[Aictos]

Plus the vestibule between the two first class sections on the 321s which FCC have doesn't count as first class and therefore anyone can use it.

 

[Fred26]

Well that's outside the doors.