Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Viscount702]

Should we be worried about this as I don't see what this scheme has to do with TRU NPR maybe

 

[Bald Rick]

Should we be worried about this as I don't see what this scheme has to do with TRU NPR maybe

You wouldn’t want to close this route and the main Transpennine route at the same time.

 

[Viscount702]

You wouldn’t want to close this route and the main Transpennine route at the same time.

Forgot about that.

 

[Killingworth]

Should we be worried about this as I don't see what this scheme has to do with TRU NPR maybe

This project came under the Manchester Hub umbrella and signalling of the line is currently controlled from Manchester up to Dore West junction. When the scheme is complete signalling control from east of Earles Sidings switches to York. Exactly when that section of line moves from LNW to LNE is unclear to me.

I see this as a reason to be cheerful, not to worry about - although all changes bring their own difficulties. Like the planned new signalling not fitting onto the originally intended panel. (Work has been going on in the relay room at Dore this week, probably routine.)

 

[Watershed]

signalling of the line is currently controlled from Manchester up to Dore West junction

The signal boxes might managerially fall under Manchester, but the lights on sticks (or rather, semaphore arms) aren't physically controlled there. I haven't seen any proposals for things to change from Earles Sidings westwards, where there's still a panoply of different installations ranging from the 5 Stockport mechanical boxes to the Hazel Grove panel.

 

[unlevel42]

How much of the construction work will require closure of the route?
The current single line working surely means that most of doubling, new platform and south curve work can be done in isolation.

There are no suitable alternatives for rail traffic between Sheffield and Manchester which does not treble the journey time.

 

[Watershed]

How much of the construction work will require closure of the route?
The current single line working surely means that most of doubling, new platform and south curve work can be done in isolation.

There will probably be a fair number of disruptive closures. The existing single line may need to be slewed in places, and there won't necessarily be enough clearance to safely lay new tracks whilst the single line remains open. And then of course you need to shut Dore West Junction and Dore Station Junction (though not necessarily at the same time) when it comes time to lay the new pointwork and connect it all up.

There are no suitable alternatives for rail traffic between Sheffield and Manchester which does not treble the journey time.

The journey time is normally 53-55 minutes. Diverting via Huddersfield increases that to about 90 minutes. So a 2/3 increase in journey time, but nowhere near trebling.

There were some very healthy loadings last weekend, when there were (unrelated) engineering works at Dore meaning all services were diverted. Clearly those passengers thought that the diversion was a suitable alternative.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are no suitable alternatives for rail traffic between Sheffield and Manchester which does not treble the journey time.

Worth remembering that not all passengers traveling on a train from Sheffield to Manchester are on a journey from Sheffield to Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

How much of the construction work will require closure of the route?
The current single line working surely means that most of doubling, new platform and south curve work can be done in isolation.

There are no suitable alternatives for rail traffic between Sheffield and Manchester which does not treble the journey time.

As mentioned, the chances of working adjacent line open is very very small. It will be all line blocks. Also remember that other disciplines will piggy back to make use of the available time that are not enhancement related.

 

[Killingworth]

There will probably be a fair number of disruptive closures. The existing single line may need to be slewed in places, and there won't necessarily be enough clearance to safely lay new tracks whilst the single line remains open. And then of course you need to shut Dore West Junction and Dore Station Junction (though not necessarily at the same time) when it comes time to lay the new pointwork and connect it all up.


The journey time is normally 53-55 minutes. Diverting via Huddersfield increases that to about 90 minutes. So a 2/3 increase in journey time, but nowhere near trebling.

There were some very healthy loadings last weekend, when there were (unrelated) engineering works at Dore meaning all services were diverted. Clearly those passengers thought that the diversion was a suitable alternative.

TOCs received details of scheduled blockades as long ago as October. Many nights, a lot of weekends, and longer ones over bank holiday weeks.

Last weekend there was a rail replacement bus between Sheffield and Bamford with Northern stopping services running from Piccadilly to Hathersage. (There's a bus turning circle near Bamford station.) The smart and large Andrews coaches, two of them, took 50 minutes between Bamford and Sheffield, against 23 minutes by train. I was out walking and saw them pass and didn't see a single passenger aboard. (The actual work seems to have been down the Sheaf Valley into Sheffield from Dore.)

Trouble is a coach can't easily get near Hope Valley stations so they stop on adjacent roads, and there has to be a minibus feeder when Edale's involved. They can't linger when early without snarling up traffic and tend to dawdle. There was totally inadequate signage to tell there was a replacement bus, and none I saw to tell what times it ran. (Pre-Covid Northern carried heavy end to end loads at weekends, partly because their fares often undercut the others!)

EMR and freight ran via the Dore curve between Grindleford and Dronfield, missing out Dore and Sheffield. It's not surprising that Sheffield-Manchester traffic would be heavier than usual on the remaining TPE through services, despite the longer journey time. That won't be possible when the effective third track is being carved out of the hillside between Westview Lane (the new junction location) and the current Dore West Junction.

After Covid and the inevitable disruption of the work it's going to be a lot of years before 2019/20 loads are seen again

 

[ALEMASTER]

TOCs received details of scheduled blockades as long ago as October. Many nights, a lot of weekends, and longer ones over bank holiday weeks.

Last weekend there was a rail replacement bus between Sheffield and Bamford with Northern stopping services running from Piccadilly to Hathersage. (There's a bus turning circle near Bamford station.) The smart and large Andrews coaches, two of them, took 50 minutes between Bamford and Sheffield, against 23 minutes by train. I was out walking and saw them pass and didn't see a single passenger aboard. (The actual work seems to have been down the Sheaf Valley into Sheffield from Dore.)

Trouble is a coach can't easily get near Hope Valley stations so they stop on adjacent roads, and there has to be a minibus feeder when Edale's involved. They can't linger when early without snarling up traffic and tend to dawdle. There was totally inadequate signage to tell there was a replacement bus, and none I saw to tell what times it ran. (Pre-Covid Northern carried heavy end to end loads at weekends, partly because their fares often undercut the others!)

EMR and freight ran via the Dore curve between Grindleford and Dronfield, missing out Dore and Sheffield. It's not surprising that Sheffield-Manchester traffic would be heavier than usual on the remaining TPE through services, despite the longer journey time.

After Covid and the inevitable disruption of the work it's going to be a lot of years before 2019/20 loads are seen again

Technically I suppose you could run Chesterfield to Manchester via the Dore Curve with Sheffield passengers connecting at Dronfield or Chesterfield with buses only required for Dore & Totley station itself.

 

[Killingworth]

Technically I suppose you could run Chesterfield to Manchester via the Dore Curve with Sheffield passengers connecting at Dronfield or Chesterfield with buses only required for Dore & Totley station itself.

For a few shorter periods perhaps, but I doubt they'll bother.

Certainly not while the new chord/loop is being constructed below Poynton Wood between Westview Lane and the current Dore West Junction and they're taking a slice of undulating Sickleholme Golf Course and fields alongside the tracks for the Bamford loop. That work has to be done during the longer blockades, as will be connecting signalling and control of points at different stages of the scheme.

There's also work on the Sheaf Valley route to alter signalling for the Heeley up loop to accept longer trains and to connect new tracks for the revised Dore Station Junction.

 

[unlevel42]

The journey time taken by the overnight Sheffield to Manchester Airport train is not a good measure of how much longer the weekday services will take to go via Huddersfield.
When routes via New Mills Central and Hazel Grove were closed because of the threat of a dam breach, the diverted Sheffield Manchester trains were halved in number and used the stopping train path between Huddersfield and Manchester.
Routing EMR trains on the South curve at Dore (as was done last Sunday) and stopping all trains at Dronfield might provide a more reliable connection.

TPE trains to/from Doncaster could reverse on 3 at Chesterfield and make a stop at Swinton.

 

[Watershed]

The journey time taken by the overnight Sheffield to Manchester Airport train is not a good measure of how much longer the weekday services will take to go via Huddersfield.

The 14:09 from Piccadilly to Sheffield (via Huddersfield) last Sunday was timed to take 83 minutes, and that was with 3 minutes of pathing. So the journey time is 80 minutes plus whatever pathing you end up with - 90 minutes is about right.

Routing EMR trains on the South curve at Dore (as was done last Sunday) and stopping all trains at Dronfield might provide a more reliable connection.

That would require a bus connection to Dronfield, which would put off many people. Anyway, in most cases it would be faster to travel via Denby Dale, Leeds or Chesterfield.

TPE trains to/from Doncaster could reverse on 3 at Chesterfield

No they couldn't. How are you going to get a driver who has both route knowledge of Chesterfield, and traction knowledge of 185s, for a handful of diversions a year?

and make a stop at Swinton

Not happening.

 

[unlevel42]

During the threat of the flood the 50% service which went via Huddersfield used stopping train paths ie they were slower between Huddersfield and Manchester.
The demand and frequency of services on this line on a Sunday at 0900 is a bit different to 0900 on Monday.

Why mention Denby Dale?- that takes even longer

Passenger on EMR trains could stop at Dronfield and catch the trains to/from Sheffield- why would they need a bus?

If all it takes is "...a handful of diversions a year..." then I agree no point in TPE route knowledge via Barrow Hill. However from earlier in the thread people have indicated that significant closure will be required for the doubling, new platform and new junctions on the west curve. The East curve will not require anywhere near as much work and when it does the XC, Northern and EMR(London only?) drivers will know the Barrow Hill route.

What does "Not happening." mean in reference to stopping at Swinton? It would be very handy if trains could stop with the potential of solutions for travel problems to Sheffield, Doncaster, Leeds, Rotherham and Chesterfield.

 

[Watershed]

During the threat of the flood the 50% service which went via Huddersfield used stopping train paths ie they were slower between Huddersfield and Manchester.

Yes, because it was arranged at very short notice, in such a way as to minimise overall resource cost. When there is more time to create a considered plan, it might well be possible to palm off the local stops to the Hull service, as happens on Sundays. It all depends on what works best in the circumstances, but even if you stop at the local stations, the journey time is still around 90 minutes. So I don't know where you got trebling from.

Passenger on EMR trains could stop at Dronfield and catch the trains to/from Sheffield- why would they need a bus?

If Dore Station Jn is closed there won't be any trains between Dronfield and Sheffield. Meanwhile if Dore West Jn is closed there won't be any trains over the Hope Valley at all. The only time where this would be a relevant option is if both the aforementioned junctions remain open, but the West-Station chord is shut.

If all it takes is "...a handful of diversions a year..." then I agree no point in TPE route knowledge via Barrow Hill. However from earlier in the thread people have indicated that significant closure will be required for the doubling, new platform and new junctions on the west curve. The East curve will not require anywhere near as much work and when it does the XC, Northern and EMR(London only?) drivers will know the Barrow Hill route.

There will be numerous possessions required, but as @Killingworth has pointed out, they will be spread out - hence "a handful of diversions a year".

What does "Not happening." mean in reference to stopping at Swinton? It would be very handy if trains could stop with the potential of solutions for travel problems to Sheffield, Doncaster, Leeds, Rotherham and Chesterfield.

TPE don't stop at Swinton. If you are having to divert via Huddersfield then it probably means that, as on the weekend just gone, there isn't the capacity to run services to Doncaster as well as to Manchester. And therefore your best option between Sheffield and Doncaster is taking any remaining train services (or replacement buses). If travelling further afield then changing at Leeds or Wakefield is likely better.

 

[Killingworth]

If Dore Station Jn is closed there won't be any trains between Dronfield and Sheffield. Meanwhile if Dore West Jn is closed there won't be any trains over the Hope Valley at all. The only time where this would be a relevant option is if both the aforementioned junctions remain open, but the West-Station chord is shut.


There will be numerous possessions required, but as @Killingworth has pointed out, they will be spread out - hence "a handful of diversions a year".

The blockades are already known to TOCs and plans must already be being roughed out taking full account of the above.

Work is scheduled for all sites to progress together during most of the blockades so nothing gets through. The professionals worked that out many months, even years, ago.

 

[unlevel42]

My focus is moving people between Chesterfield/Sheffield and Manchester.
I am uncertain as to the extent and number of closure required, "handful" and "numerous" would require different solutions.

For decades engineering work and the possibility of long term closure of one of the three long tunnels should have focused minds on alternative provision. I have asked on this forum about the planning in place for a long term closure of one of the three big tunnels.
The failure to provide timely or adequate alternatives during threat from the dam is still fresh. One train instead of three per hour.

The question I still ask is can the civil and railway work be planned in stages which would allow continued partial use.

Last Sunday trains were diverted via Dore south curve(EMR)or via Huddersfield(TPE) but there were no Northern trains or the constraints of a normal Monday Friday timetable.

A train swap at Chesterfield, or better still Dronfield would be an attractive proposition if it helped maintain frequency and capacity.

 

[Killingworth]

The question I still ask is can the civil and railway work be planned in stages which would allow continued partial use.

Last Sunday trains were diverted via Dore south curve(EMR)or via Huddersfield(TPE) but there were no Northern trains or the constraints of a normal Monday Friday timetable.

A train swap at Chesterfield, or better still Dronfield would be an attractive proposition if it helped maintain frequency and capacity.

You fail to appreciate that the whole point of the work is to reduce the bottleneck that is centred on Dore West Junction. The work on that blocks everything.

The work at Bamford is carefully choreographed to ensure maximum progress during the minimum of blockades, weather permitting.

It's 12 months before the heavy work starts but the framework is all in place. All the TOCs have a very good idea of what they'll need to do.

 

[edwin_m]

During the closure due to the dam problems, didn't EMR use the units made spare to strengthen Crewe-Derby services? These provide an alternative route between Nottingham/beyond and Manchester or Liverpool, although capacity issues would still force a change at Crewe. I think this service is extended back to Nottingham by the time these works happen, so would be one change rather than two.

 

[unlevel42]

You fail to appreciate that the whole point of the work is to reduce the bottleneck that is centred on Dore West Junction. The work on that blocks everything.

The work at Bamford is carefully choreographed to ensure maximum progress during the minimum of blockades, weather permitting.

It's 12 months before the heavy work starts but the framework is all in place. All the TOCs have a very good idea of what they'll need to do.

I also fail to believe that the three TOCs, the railway and the civils have a plan that will enable people to get onto three services per hour into Manchester in a reasonable time, particularly as there is no road alternative and the previous failure to cope during the dam threat.

I also prefer to listen to the concerns of my vastly experienced Civil Engineering pals, that the balance between a very costly 24/7 shorter blockade and lengthier, cheaper daytime, weekday closures is something that the TOCs and Railway operations will NOT have a say in until after the substantial contracts have been signed. There advice will be taken but costs drive everything.

You and I do not know that balance.
My concern is that the interests of Sheffield passengers will not be a high priority and an assumption that the TOCs have a plan in place that responds to passenger need is highly optimistic.

 

[Killingworth]

I also fail to believe that the three TOCs, the railway and the civils have a plan that will enable people to get onto three services per hour into Manchester in a reasonable time, particularly as there is no road alternative and the previous failure to cope during the dam threat.

I also prefer to listen to the concerns of my vastly experienced Civil Engineering pals, that the balance between a very costly 24/7 shorter blockade and lengthier, cheaper daytime, weekday closures is something that the TOCs and Railway operations will NOT have a say in until after the substantial contracts have been signed. There advice will be taken but costs drive everything.

You and I do not know that balance.
My concern is that the interests of Sheffield passengers will not be a high priority and an assumption that the TOCs have a plan in place that responds to passenger need is highly optimistic.

The contracts have been signed and project management is already underway. TOC operating departments had the timetable of closures in early October 2020 so plenty of time to get organised with major work not starting until April 2022. Those living locally have had this project hanging over them for many years, at least since the first consultations in 2013, and the details are now being firmed up .

Minimising blockades was one of the biggest determining factors. Timings around two Easter bank holidays will particularly have had to be adjusted because the original target date was completion in 2018. Freight comes very much into this as well. The FOCs have had a lot to say about timing of blockades.

As a user of the line I'm only too well aware of the all too frequent late running and cancelled trains, and long gaps between some stops on the Northern services. (The cancellation of all trains for about 5 days seemed to be ultra cautious when there was a threatened dam burst that might have damaged the railway in the Goyt valley, but that's another story!)

Hopefully by mid 2023 the doubled tracks through Dore will be operational, but there's a lot to connect up, both track and signalling. New services probably can't be safely planned before the May 2024 review. Improved current services should be happening by then.

And yes, I agree that the alternatives during blockades are likely to be poor! I'm glad I have a car. And that's the current situation. Observation of loadings suggests the majority of previous regular users are staying at home or using cars.

 

[td97]

There's a 9 day blockade in Apr 2023 (not coinciding with Easter). Otherwise possessions planned every weekend in Jul 2022 plus others periodically throughout 2021/22/23.

 

[unlevel42]

There's a 9 day blockade in Apr 2023 (not coinciding with Easter). Otherwise possessions planned every weekend in Jul 2022 plus others periodically throughout 2021/22/23.

I appreciate the factual information in the above posts.
I hope Hulleys know to keep the X57 bus running- if only to Glossop.

 

[The Planner]

I also fail to believe that the three TOCs, the railway and the civils have a plan that will enable people to get onto three services per hour into Manchester in a reasonable time, particularly as there is no road alternative and the previous failure to cope during the dam threat.

I also prefer to listen to the concerns of my vastly experienced Civil Engineering pals, that the balance between a very costly 24/7 shorter blockade and lengthier, cheaper daytime, weekday closures is something that the TOCs and Railway operations will NOT have a say in until after the substantial contracts have been signed. There advice will be taken but costs drive everything.

You and I do not know that balance.
My concern is that the interests of Sheffield passengers will not be a high priority and an assumption that the TOCs have a plan in place that responds to passenger need is highly optimistic.

The costs for compensating the operators is not cheaper during the week though, it is more expensive than at weekends. Also, commercial agreements can be made for longer blocks that also reduce the costs.

You also vastly misunderstand the process for arranging disruptive access to the railway, if NR and the TOCs come to an agreement for the best outcome for the industry then the contractors are working to that, not the other way around. Simple fact is that if the disruptive access isn't agreed then you are not getting on the tracks to do stuff. The pro's and con's of the construction options are taken into account but you are mistaken if you think NR and TOCs will roll over to the contractor.

 

[unlevel42]

The costs for compensating the operators is not cheaper during the week though, it is more expensive than at weekends. Also, commercial agreements can be made for longer blocks that also reduce the costs.

You also vastly misunderstand the process for arranging disruptive access to the railway, if NR and the TOCs come to an agreement for the best outcome for the industry then the contractors are working to that, not the other way around. Simple fact is that if the disruptive access isn't agreed then you are not getting on the tracks to do stuff. The pro's and con's of the construction options are taken into account but you are mistaken if you think NR and TOCs will roll over to the contractor.

I don't care about how the interested parties get their act together.

I do care about me and thousands of others going about their business between two of the largest cities in England.
I do know something about how Civil Engineering projects evolve having been around civil engineers all my adult life. I have also seen how complex project can falter. Much has changed in fifty years including the attitude toward the public.
Proper, qualified Civil Engineers and Civil Engineering Companies no longer pour scorn on plebs like me for asking "stupid" questions and I respect them for that.
Ignoring the public and getting bad publicity has become a real monetary factor in business including constructions.
The assumption that the public shouldn't show concern and nothing can be done has long gone.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't care about how the interested parties get their act together.

I do care about me and thousands of others going about their business between two of the largest cities in England.
I do know something about how Civil Engineering projects evolve having been around civil engineers all my adult life. I have also seen how complex project can falter. Much has changed in fifty years including the attitude toward the public.
Proper, qualified Civil Engineers and Civil Engineering Companies no longer pour scorn on plebs like me for asking "stupid" questions and I respect them for that.
Ignoring the public and getting bad publicity has become a real monetary factor in business including constructions.
The assumption that the public shouldn't show concern and nothing can be done has long gone.

From my own experience of civil engineering contractors they will seek to get the job done in the most cost-effective way possible consistent with constraints imposed by the client and those of law and good practice. If they had the freedom to choose, the quickest, safest and cheapest way would be to blockade the whole route for as long as necessary, because that allows 24/7 working in a building site environment. The alternative is shorter closures, working at unsocial hours and having to put everything back to restore the operational railway at the end of each one. And/or working close to a live railway which requires all sorts of costly safety precautions and even so carries significant extra risks to the workforce, which is something reputable civil engineering contractors also care about.

So the comment above that the work will be done in multiple shorter possessions indicates that the industry is already planning to spend more than strictly necessary, to minimise the disruption to passengers and freight customers compared with a single blockade.

Amongst all the general vitriol you are throwing about, I've rather lost track of what you are actually wanting to see, other than some rather vague idea of a better service between Manchester and Sheffield during the time the route is closed. Others have explained that the various options of changing at Dronfield and Chesterfield are only possible for a few (if any) of the closures. I don't know what is planned via Huddersfield but the fact this was done at short notice during the closure for dam work suggests it could be done again. It may take be a bit longer than you'd like unless the much busier Manchester-Leeds service is also messed around with, which would disrupt things as far away as Liverpool and Edinburgh, so inconvenience many passengers not directly affected by Hope Valley. I've mentioned strengthening of Derby-Crewe which gives another option for Sheffield and particularly Chesterfield, although with two changes of train.

Unfortunately, other than re-opening Woodhead, at the end of the day the only rail alternatives involve going 20 miles north or south and using lines that are very busy with other services.

 

[unlevel42]

From my own experience of civil engineering contractors they will seek to get the job done in the most cost-effective way possible consistent with constraints imposed by the client and those of law and good practice. If they had the freedom to choose, the quickest, safest and cheapest way would be to blockade the whole route for as long as necessary, because that allows 24/7 working in a building site environment. The alternative is shorter closures, working at unsocial hours and having to put everything back to restore the operational railway at the end of each one. And/or working close to a live railway which requires all sorts of costly safety precautions and even so carries significant extra risks to the workforce, which is something reputable civil engineering contractors also care about.

So the comment above that the work will be done in multiple shorter possessions indicates that the industry is already planning to spend more than strictly necessary, to minimise the disruption to passengers and freight customers compared with a single blockade.

Amongst all the general vitriol you are throwing about, I've rather lost track of what you are actually wanting to see, other than some rather vague idea of a better service between Manchester and Sheffield during the time the route is closed. Others have explained that the various options of changing at Dronfield and Chesterfield are only possible for a few (if any) of the closures. I don't know what is planned via Huddersfield but the fact this was done at short notice during the closure for dam work suggests it could be done again. It may take be a bit longer than you'd like unless the much busier Manchester-Leeds service is also messed around with, which would disrupt things as far away as Liverpool and Edinburgh, so inconvenience many passengers not directly affected by Hope Valley. I've mentioned strengthening of Derby-Crewe which gives another option for Sheffield and particularly Chesterfield, although with two changes of train.

Unfortunately, other than re-opening Woodhead, at the end of the day the only rail alternatives involve going 20 miles north or south and using lines that are very busy with other services.

Sheffield to Manchester is very busy.
Sheffield loses both fast services and has to carry the passengers on the stopper path between Huddersfield and Manchester.
Sheffield has no satisfactory road alternative.
Recent history proved that the railway was unprepared for the dam closures and failed to provide anything for nearly two weeks.

If the solutions are to be going via Leeds(dam advice) going via Derby and changing twice or replacing three trains with one slow then I do not think enough consideration has been given to users.

Hulley's X57 is looking a good option.

 

[edwin_m]

Sheffield to Manchester is very busy.
Sheffield loses both fast services and has to carry the passengers on the stopper path between Huddersfield and Manchester.
Sheffield has no satisfactory road alternative.
Recent history proved that the railway was unprepared for the dam closures and failed to provide anything for nearly two weeks.

If the solutions are to be going via Leeds(dam advice) going via Derby and changing twice or replacing three trains with one slow then I do not think enough consideration has been given to users.

Hulley's X57 is looking a good option.

So if you think it's not good enough, please suggest what else the rail industry could do.

 

[30907]

Sheffield to Manchester is very busy.

Yes

Sheffield loses both fast services and has to carry the passengers on the stopper path between Huddersfield and Manchester.

You are making a prediction based on what happened in an emergency situation. Neither you nor I know what will be provided for a planned closure.

Sheffield has no satisfactory road alternative.

Yes