Train sitting in the station with doors locked, passengers waiting outside

[lachlan]

Hi all, I did a quick search but couldn't find anything discussing this issue so here goes

What is standard practice regarding keeping trains locked or unlocked while sitting on platforms? I showed up at Aberdeen 15 minutes early and tapped through the gates only to find the train locked and passengers sitting on the platform, despite it being "on" (engines running). I tweeted ScotRail about this at the time to ask if the doors could be unlocked but received no response, so submitted a complaint. After an initial "we'll pass that on" I asked again and today I was told that apparently the train needs to be locked as it was sitting there for a few hours and others depart from the same platform. Train crews don't attend the train until five minutes before departure so this is why it was locked.

While it's good ScotRail took the time to write a better response I'm a bit confused. I don't think they'd leave the engines on for "a few hours", why does two trains on the same platform mean one has to be locked, and if the traincrew were there to turn the engines on then why can't they have opened the doors?

I know in the grand scheme of things its only a small problem (a "first world problem"!) which is why I initially tweeted lightheartedly but was disappointed that this didn't receive a response from ScotRail's usually excellent team. Plus the issue is made worse by the low service frequencies (hourly), there being hardly any seats on the platform, and the adjacent Union Square having very little public seating and what is there is hard with no back rest, and much of it is closed due to coronavirus. It is an inconvenience for me but could be an accessibility issue for elderly and/or disabled people who may arrive early for their train.

Is locked trains a common occurrence? Usually, they're left unlocked at Aberdeen. I thought I'd make this thread in case others would like to share their experiences or knowledge. Thanks

 

[skyhigh]

Depends on the situation. For me - if the crew is staying with the train, I'll leave it open. If the crew is leaving the train, I'll lock it up. I might get to the train before the driver does - in which case I won't release the doors until they arrive and are all set up, as they may need to complete safety checks that require the doors to be closed. The train may also be left locked if cleaners are onboard to make their lives easier.

Basically I'll have the doors open as soon as possible, but sometimes that's unfortunately not practical until shortly before departure.

 

[Aictos]

Hi all, I did a quick search but couldn't find anything discussing this issue so here goes

What is standard practice regarding keeping trains locked or unlocked while sitting on platforms? I showed up at Aberdeen 15 minutes early and tapped through the gates only to find the train locked and passengers sitting on the platform, despite it being "on" (engines running). I tweeted ScotRail about this at the time to ask if the doors could be unlocked but received no response, so submitted a complaint. After an initial "we'll pass that on" I asked again and today I was told that apparently the train needs to be locked as it was sitting there for a few hours and others depart from the same platform. Train crews don't attend the train until five minutes before departure so this is why it was locked.

I've had it at plenty of locations where the train is there but the doors are still locked as they're either still preparing the train or the train crew haven't yet arrived, it's not the end of the world.

While it's good ScotRail took the time to write a better response I'm a bit confused. I don't think they'd leave the engines on for "a few hours", why does two trains on the same platform mean one has to be locked, and if the traincrew were there to turn the engines on then why can't they have opened the doors?

Because the other thing with trains sharing a platform that @skyhigh hasn't mentioned is the possibility of passengers getting confused and getting on the wrong train eg on Platform 5 you might have the train at the buffers end of the platform form the 12:30 to Glasgow but the train at the other end might form the 12:10 to Edinburgh so to prevent any confusion by having doors open on both trains, staff may only release the doors on the 12:10 departure first and once that train has departed then they may release the doors on the 12:30 departure.

I know in the grand scheme of things its only a small problem (a "first world problem"!) which is why I initially tweeted lightheartedly but was disappointed that this didn't receive a response from ScotRail's usually excellent team. Plus the issue is made worse by the low service frequencies (hourly), there being hardly any seats on the platform, and the adjacent Union Square having very little public seating and what is there is hard with no back rest, and much of it is closed due to coronavirus. It is an inconvenience for me but could be an accessibility issue for elderly and/or disabled people who may arrive early for their train.

The issue of Union Square should be the responsivity of the local council, as to actual seating on the station you've got seating in the main concourse and platforms 3 to 6S.

 

[24Grange]

Exmouth train at Exeter St Davids, happens quite frequently.

 

[Darandio]

Was always the case at Darlington if a unit was there for a length of time. Doors locked until not long before departure then driver gets on and does brake checks etc, guard walks through the train then doors are released. Certainly doesn't warrant someone submitting a complaint.

 

[mmh]

There can't be any general rule on this as it's commonplace for trains to be left unlocked with no staff at the London terminals. In fact the timetable would probably be unworkable if they weren't.

 

[Crossover]

While it's good ScotRail took the time to write a better response I'm a bit confused. I don't think they'd leave the engines on for "a few hours", why does two trains on the same platform mean one has to be locked, and if the traincrew were there to turn the engines on then why can't they have opened the doors?

There is a possibility the engines were left running to keep certain things running, be it maintaining air, running the A/C etc - in the case of HST's, I don't think they can be cold started and either have their engines running or go on a shore supply to keep the engines warm

 

[Watershed]

Obviously it depends on the exact method of operation, who releases the doors etc. but at most TOCs, the doors won't be released until 5 mins or so before departure at the terminal stations if there is a crew change.

The crew that take the unit out are typically only given a 5-10 min allowance to prepare the train for departure, during which they need to undertake several checks before they can open the doors. If that's the first train of their shift or they're coming off a break, they won't book on/finish their break early just so people can sit down 10 mins before departure. In a number of cases it would break their diagram if they were given more time than that.

Other reasons for not opening until shortly before departure can include, as ScotRail alluded to here, there being another train further up the platform that's booked to depart earlier (to avoid confusion with people getting on the wrong train). Also if there is a turnaround clean, to give the cleaners space to get through the train and actually be able to reach all rows, rather than people milling about in the way.

I've certainly been in the OP's shoes, and there are situations where doors are kept shut for what seems like an unnecessarily long time (sometimes even delaying departure!) but there is usually a good reason behind it.

 

[Deepgreen]

I suppose it's similar to awaiting a train at a station en route - you can only board when it arrives. However, I do deplore the leaving of engines running for longer than necessary (yes, I know they can't simply be started and the train immediately depart) - long periods of engine running at stations wastes fuel, causes pollution and makes passengers believe they should be able to board because they perceive a train that's ready to accept them.

 

[PennineSuperb]

At our company it is standard procedure to have the train doors locked when trains are left in a station for more than 30 minutes due to the risk of terror attacks, trains which are left unattended by train crew, trains being cleaned and where a brake test/brake overcharge could take place.

If a Driver is booked to 'Start Up/Mobilise' a train, they are given an allocated time for the task (for example 20 minutes) this will include checking defect books, batts on, engines running/pan up, air to build, brake test etc...

A Guard could then be booked to 'Prepare Train/Safety Check' a train, they are also given an allocated time for the task (for example 10 minutes) this will include checking defect books, checking saloon status, ensuring train is clean, checking emergency equipment, check PA/PIS system, confirming with the Driver they have completed what they need to and station stops.

After all those tasks are completed the train doors can then be opened. If for example a member of train crew didn't turn up and everyone was sat on a train wondering why it wasn't going this would be more inconvenient for the station staff (where provided) who may not be trained to use the on train PA to inform passengers.

 

[cornishjohn]

I dont think there is a "normal".

Often have to wait in Newcastle until train checks have made by the new crew before we passengers can be allowed on.

Was once at Plymouth where the guard got off, locked the train up, and said to us "what are you all waiting for?". We said "the next train into Cornwall", he said "not this one!" and walked off. Five minutes later he came back, grinned, opened up and let us on, and took us off to Cornwall...

Makes sense to me to stop passengers getting on the wrong train if other units will be using the platform.

Lots of reasons to need to leave an engine running. Fairly sure I have an HST start up at station in the past, but yours might have only been switched shortly before you arrived.

 

[43066]

Is locked trains a common occurrence? Usually, they're left unlocked at Aberdeen. I thought I'd make this thread in case others would like to share their experiences or knowledge. Thanks

Generally if a train arrives into a platform as “empty coaching stock” it will be left locked. This is because it may be diagrammed to depart again ECS and would otherwise require locking out by platform staff to ensure no passengers were aboard. Engines will generally be left running unless a “disposal” is diagrammed.

The crew working the train in passenger service will unlock the doors as and when they reach the train, but won’t necessarily be there as much as 15 minutes prior to departure.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Keeping one train locked during permissive working is fairly commonplace. Otherwise you get people just getting on the nearest door of the nearest train without checking if it’s that one that is actually forming the service. Keeping the doors of that rear train locked stops passengers getting on the wrong train, and hopefully a hint to move further up the platform to the open train when they see others walking there.

The “delay” in opening doors can be for a number of reasons, but in the case of somewhere like Aberdeen this could include crew just starting work so might not even be due to sign on until a relatively short time before departure, during which time other tasks including setting up ticket machine and reading latest notices must also be undertaken. Alternatively crew may be on their break which can be a minimum length of 20 mins at my TOC, so not a lot of time to use loo and eat, let alone then go out earlier than diagrammed to open train doors (although admittedly breaks are usually a bit longer than the minimum time in practice).

At some locations crew also travel as a passenger (“PASS”) from one place to another to pick up their next working. Depending on how tight the connection is, they might not physically even be at the station until as little as 10 minutes prior to departure, so by time they’ve walked from their arriving PASS train to the platform of their next working, that’ll bring you down to 5-8 minutes or so.

 

[Horizon22]

Very dependent on each station and a whole range of other factors. For instance is the train similar stock to an adjacent platform which is boarding and might cause confusion? Has the set come from the depot empty and the driver hasn't opened the doors? Is it awaiting the driver / guard to the set to open the doors? Have the platform staff locked it up because its been sitting there for a while?

 

[S&CLER]

It's very common at Manchester Piccadilly for the Sheffield stopper on platform 1 to be kept locked until the TPE train further down the platform has left, to avoid mistakes by passengers.

 

[scotraildriver]

If the train is sitting at the buffers for a while and other trains are using the top of the same platform you can absolutely guarantee that passengers will get on the wrong train if its unlocked. No one reads the "front train" signs and you'd be surprised how long someone will sit on a train before they realise. Unfortunately station staff within Scotrail are not permitted to operate doors so the train will be locked until the crew arrive and are probably on an incoming service with a short turnaround. It's quite simply to prevent folk boarding the wrong train. Even if I'm at a train if there's another one in front I won't release the doors until it is away. The grief we get because people board the wrong train is terrible, and can be prevented by keeping it locked. It's not ideal but it's better everyone's on the right train. Also all of Scotrails fleet shut down automatically after roughly 10 minutes of the driver removing their key so it wouldn't have been left running for hours.

 

[Scotrail314209]

CrossCountry tend to leave their trains unlocked at Glasgow Central, however they don't appreciate passengers boarding before they platform the train because the crew are having a break/the cleaners are doing their job.

TPE keep the trains locked as their crew leave.

It doesn't warrant complaining about though as it does seem standard.

 

[lachlan]

Thank you for all your responses. FWIW it was a 170.

Was always the case at Darlington if a unit was there for a length of time. Doors locked until not long before departure then driver gets on and does brake checks etc, guard walks through the train then doors are released. Certainly doesn't warrant someone submitting a complaint.

I love taking the train but when there are frustrations I think it's important these are logged rather than simply moaning about them but doing nothing. In this case, I think there is an accessibility issue too and its important the railway does all it can to be accessible. If rail companies find a lot of passengers are inconvenienced by this (some may end up taking the bus or not using public transport at all), they may find ways to avoid keeping doors locked or simply provide more seating on platforms.

I suppose it's similar to awaiting a train at a station en route - you can only board when it arrives. However, I do deplore the leaving of engines running for longer than necessary (yes, I know they can't simply be started and the train immediately depart) - long periods of engine running at stations wastes fuel, causes pollution and makes passengers believe they should be able to board because they perceive a train that's ready to accept them.

Engines are often turned off at Aberdeen so I can't complain here! I know this as I have often boarded a train with the engines off and they've been turned on while I'm sitting on it.

Keeping one train locked during permissive working is fairly commonplace. Otherwise you get people just getting on the nearest door of the nearest train without checking if it’s that one that is actually forming the service. Keeping the doors of that rear train locked stops passengers getting on the wrong train, and hopefully a hint to move further up the platform to the open train when they see others walking there.

I didn't think about it that way and that makes a lot of sense, thank you. Though if possible it would benefit the passenger experience if someone can come in and unlock the train once the one in front of it has departed.

Something else that could help the issue is more platform seating, and hopefully the TOCs can take that feedback on board.

 

[40129]

Not sure if this is still the case , but there used to be a peak hour (ECS) train from Tyseley TMD to New Street which upon arrival at New Street would divide. The front 3-4 cars would form a Rugeley TV services and the rear 3 cars a Shrewsbury service departing five minutes later.

As a result of being uncoupled, the trains were extremely close to each other at New Street and it was therefore considered good practice for the conductor of the Shrewsbury train NOT to release his/her doors until the Rugeley TV train had departed. Whilst this may have been somewhat frustrating for passengers waiting to board the Shrewsbury train it did (usually) prevent passengers from being on the wrong train

 

[Taunton]

This appears to be just another of the "let's make things less convenient for passengers" attitudes of the railway. Time was, of course, when trains were readily left unlocked on the platform, both slam-door and early power door sets; the old Wirral units, for example, always did so at their termini without any problem. Nobody ever came to grief. Unlocking just a few minutes before departure, with the passengers all standing outside, would have been seen as unreasonable all round.

At our company it is standard procedure to have the train doors locked when trains are left in a station for more than 30 minutes due to the risk of terror attacks

Unless you are in Belfast, that really is from someone at HQ with a ludicrous sense of imagination.

 

[yorksrob]

This is one of the many reasons why the old slam door trains were much better.

 

[Highlandspring]

What is standard practice regarding keeping trains locked or unlocked while sitting on platforms? I showed up at Aberdeen 15 minutes early and tapped through the gates only to find the train locked and passengers sitting on the platform, despite it being "on" (engines running). I tweeted ScotRail about this at the time to ask if the doors could be unlocked but received no response, so submitted a complaint. After an initial "we'll pass that on" I asked again and today I was told that apparently the train needs to be locked as it was sitting there for a few hours and others depart from the same platform. Train crews don't attend the train until five minutes before departure so this is why it was locked.

At Aberdeen you're lucky to have got on the platform at all, they usually barricade off the platforms and make people wait in the space between the barriers and the platforms until a minute before departure (Blackpool North style)

 

[scotraildriver]

This appears to be just another of the "let's make things less convenient for passengers" attitudes of the railway. Time was, of course, when trains were readily left unlocked on the platform, both slam-door and early power door sets; the old Wirral units, for example, always did so at their termini without any problem. Nobody ever came to grief. Unlocking just a few minutes before departure, with the passengers all standing outside, would have been seen as unreasonable all round.


Unless you are in Belfast, that really is from someone at HQ with a ludicrous sense of imagination.

It's much less convenient if they end up on the wrong train. Unfortunately these days people seem less capable of reading screens or understanding the concept of 2 trains at a platform. Long before I worked on the railway it was obvious to me if there were 2 trains in a platform the first departure HAD to be the front train. That seems lost on people these days. The grief we get because "no one told me" is awful.

 

[trebor79]

Hi all, I did a quick search but couldn't find anything discussing this issue so here goes

What is standard practice regarding keeping trains locked or unlocked while sitting on platforms? I showed up at Aberdeen 15 minutes early and tapped through the gates only to find the train locked and passengers sitting on the platform, despite it being "on" (engines running). I tweeted ScotRail about this at the time to ask if the doors could be unlocked but received no response, so submitted a complaint. After an initial "we'll pass that on" I asked again and today I was told that apparently the train needs to be locked as it was sitting there for a few hours and others depart from the same platform. Train crews don't attend the train until five minutes before departure so this is why it was locked.

While it's good ScotRail took the time to write a better response I'm a bit confused. I don't think they'd leave the engines on for "a few hours", why does two trains on the same platform mean one has to be locked, and if the traincrew were there to turn the engines on then why can't they have opened the doors?

I know in the grand scheme of things its only a small problem (a "first world problem"!) which is why I initially tweeted lightheartedly but was disappointed that this didn't receive a response from ScotRail's usually excellent team. Plus the issue is made worse by the low service frequencies (hourly), there being hardly any seats on the platform, and the adjacent Union Square having very little public seating and what is there is hard with no back rest, and much of it is closed due to coronavirus. It is an inconvenience for me but could be an accessibility issue for elderly and/or disabled people who may arrive early for their train.

Is locked trains a common occurrence? Usually, they're left unlocked at Aberdeen. I thought I'd make this thread in case others would like to share their experiences or knowledge. Thanks

Why on earth did you think this warranted a complaint? The train doors will be unlocked when the crew is onboard and happy everything is ready for passengers.
Do you complain to airlines when they don't let you on the plane the instant it rolls up to the stand?

Happened to me a couple of weeks back going from Newcastle to Carlisle, I just went and sat down somewhere until it was ready. Honestly, what's the big deal here?

 

[Jonny]

Why on earth did you think this warranted a complaint? The train doors will be unlocked when the crew is onboard and happy everything is ready for passengers.
Do you complain to airlines when they don't let you on the plane the instant it rolls up to the stand?

Happened to me a couple of weeks back going from Newcastle to Carlisle, I just went and sat down somewhere until it was ready. Honestly, what's the big deal here?

It can mess up eating and drinking (even pre-pandemic), especially if you have a relatively short journey. It is also unhelpful if there is a crowd build-up (and that was before the pandemic).

 

[seagull]

Plenty of stations where trains only arrive 60 seconds before departure...
Plenty of bus stations where the bus is only opened when the driver arrives a minute or two before departure.

 

[lachlan]

Why on earth did you think this warranted a complaint? The train doors will be unlocked when the crew is onboard and happy everything is ready for passengers.
Do you complain to airlines when they don't let you on the plane the instant it rolls up to the stand?

Happened to me a couple of weeks back going from Newcastle to Carlisle, I just went and sat down somewhere until it was ready. Honestly, what's the big deal here?

I've already said why I submitted a complaint, and I think it's always a good idea to get in touch rather than just moan and get on with things. I know I'd rather my customers tell me if something is bad rather than say nothing and decide not to come back or worse write a negative review about something that could have been fixed.

Aircraft boarding is often a poor experience too but generally there is indoor seating. I already said, there is hardly any seating at Aberdeen which is part of the problem.

Also am not sure why the tone when you have also submitted complaints in the past and posted about it here...

Plenty of stations where trains only arrive 60 seconds before departure...
Plenty of bus stations where the bus is only opened when the driver arrives a minute or two before departure.

Indeed, though that is not the case here.

 

[davews]

Once at Waterloo our Reading train came in, believe from the depot. Various of us on the platform pressing the (unlit) button obviously with no luck. Driver walked past and told us the doors would be released when the guard arrived - which he did a few minutes later. Yes, a common situation even in this case just for a few minutes.

 

[bb21]

I love taking the train but when there are frustrations I think it's important these are logged rather than simply moaning about them but doing nothing. In this case, I think there is an accessibility issue too and its important the railway does all it can to be accessible. If rail companies find a lot of passengers are inconvenienced by this (some may end up taking the bus or not using public transport at all), they may find ways to avoid keeping doors locked or simply provide more seating on platforms.

You are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with providing the company with constructive feedback, which can be in the form of a complaint. Indeed the more people raise a particular issue, the more likely it will be treated with a higher priority. Volume of complaint is not a guarantee that a solution will necessarily be found, but it should help bring it onto the agenda for most companies. All complaints are logged, so yes you are doing absolutely the right thing.

I didn't think about it that way and that makes a lot of sense, thank you. Though if possible it would benefit the passenger experience if someone can come in and unlock the train once the one in front of it has departed.

I suspect that one may be a non-starter in the current environment given staffing constraints especially since the fallout of Covid, but again if you have useful feedback on how customer journey experience can be improved I am sure most companies will be appreciative of the comments.

Something else that could help the issue is more platform seating, and hopefully the TOCs can take that feedback on board.

All good points.

 

[Need2]

This appears to be just another of the "let's make things less convenient for passengers" attitudes of the railway. Time was, of course, when trains were readily left unlocked on the platform, both slam-door and early power door sets; the old Wirral units, for example, always did so at their termini without any problem. Nobody ever came to grief. Unlocking just a few minutes before departure, with the passengers all standing outside, would have been seen as unreasonable all round.


Unless you are in Belfast, that really is from someone at HQ with a ludicrous sense of imagination.

Your first sentence beggars belief or you are living in the very distant past.
If you leave unlock stock unattended round my way you will soon have it vandalised or have homeless sleepers in it.
Unfortunately in this day and age you cannot leave anything unlocked and unattended.