overlapping advance tickets

[OwlMan]

What do people think of travelling with overlapping advance tickets - from
Coventry - Carlisle - the cheapest tickets being Coventry - Preston advance & Crewe - Carlisle advance. (The tickets being on the same train). The only problem I can see is not being able to sit in two seats at the same time!!

Pete

 

[John @ home]

At first sight it seems to conform to both NRCoC and the Advance ticket conditions (as long as you book adjacent seats and sit in both!)

 

[YorkshireRider]

Great idea if your saving £££. Is it compulsary to sit in your reserved seat anyway??

 

[moonrakerz]

Great idea if your saving £££. Is it compulsary to sit in your reserved seat anyway??

Strictly speaking your ticket is only valid if you travel on the train, and in the seat, shown on your ticket.

I often occupy a "better" seat when I have a reservation - I have NEVER been asked to move seats - in fact, in the vast majority of cases I am not even asked for that part of the ticket to check I am even on the right train !

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The only problem I can see is not being able to sit in two seats at the same time!!

. . . when purchasing I make sure the same seat is available
The trick here is to see if it will book between the complete travel points

Yes, rail-britain does seem to have misunderstood the question, but these 2 quotes raise another possibility . . .
Can we get the booking engine to assign us two adjacent seats for the leg of the journey for which we have the 2 tickets?
(If so, we could sit across 2 seats with full authority!).

But to return to the question - I'm struggling to find any reason why this shouldn't be permitted. The nearest to a challenge would be along the lines of " you are either stopping short on this ticket or starting late on this one and we don't allow either of those abuses of travel" to which the passenger replies " but I'm not - I didn't alight early and I didn't board late".

I am of the opinion that the passenger is entitled to travel with 2 tickets which, when combined, cover the entire journey, and where also both tickets cover the same part of the overall journey.

 

[MikeWh]

Really the only issue is that you won't be sitting in the right seat for the whole of one of the tickets (unless you can get adjacent seats ), but I can't see how they can complain about just that. You are not occupying a seat that was available for others to use because you had booked it for yourself. As Dave says, you clearly haven't either started late or stopped short.

I'd love to see the press if Virgin tried to issue an UPFN for that!

 

[Lampshade]

Hmm, it could be seen as travelling short on the first ticket or starting late on the next, although strictly speaking they do cover the whole journey so it's a bit of a grey area.

 

[MikeWh]

Hmm, it could be seen as travelling short on the first ticket or starting late on the next, although strictly speaking they do cover the whole journey so it's a bit of a grey area.

There is nothing in the advance ticket terms that says you can't have another ticket to cover part of your journey, unless you know different and can find it. You clearly neither start late nor stop short because you don't get off the train.

 

[12CSVT]

Great idea if your saving £££. Is it compulsary to sit in your reserved seat anyway??

I don't see how they can actually force you to sit even if you do have a reservation - anyway you would need to vacate your seat to go to the toilet or buffet/shop/m's bar (depending on which TOC)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thinking about it.......

You have not missed the first booked train...................................check

You are on the booked service(s) shown on the ticket....................check

You are on the TOC (or geographic route) shown on the ticket........check

You are in the class of accommodation shown on the ticket............check

You are in the seats shown on the ticket.....................................possibly, see below

You are using two or more tickets to make one journey..................check

The tickets cover the entire journey...........................................see below

With regard to the last one, do they cover the entire journey? I guess they do (under condition 19) if they are valid. So are they valid? Well, are you starting, breaking and resuming, or ending your journey short of the origin and/or destination printed on the ticket? In this case no. So the only condition you might break is that of being in the seat shown on the ticket (unless both seats are together and you manage to sit in both between Crewe and Preston).

I guess it would be allowed 99 times out of 100 in anycase.

I suspect the only remaining sticking point is if the train (due to disruption) doesn't call at Coventry, in which case we get into the "you missed your first booked train on the second ticket" arguement again. Ofcourse this is another case of what is supposed to happen and what actually happens.

 

[tony_mac]

it doesn't say you have to travel in the reserved seat for the entire journey. or it would make going to the toilet a bit messy!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe, but if you were to sit in a seat other than your reserved one you would not be adhering to the conditions of the ticket. So, when you are not on the loo, at the buffet/shop, or standing up/walking, you should really be occupying both reserved seats.

Unless you are suggesting that the Op sits in the toilet cubicle of a Pendelino (not reknowned for it's comfy seat, window view or 'pleasant' aroma) between Crewe and Preston?hock::eek:

 

[Bedpan]

I've never yet had a problem sitting in the wrong seat. It's surprising how often I fins somebody already sitting in my seat when I join a train and how brgrudging they often are when I ask them to move. I find it easier to look for a nicer seat with a better window view in an emptier carriage if that happens (and often when it doesn't).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So, when you are not on the loo, at the buffet/shop, or standing up/walking, you should really be occupying both reserved seats.

I agree that the passenger should be occupying their allocated seat. But, Note that this requirement does not apply if the passenger does not travel.
Now I understand that deciding to travel or not is an entirely free choice for a ticket holder. They may decline the offer of travel and have no need to inform the TOC that they won't be occupying their reserved seat. (This happens hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day, and is just something rail staff have to manage as best they can).
I believe that this interpretation is crucial in understanding ticket regulations.

So, in the case of overlapping tickets, we could argue either that the passenger is travelling under the authority of BOTH tickets simultaneously (and is therefore expected to occupy both seats simultaneously), or, they are simply declining to take up the offer which is noted on one of the tickets throughout the journey, which would result in the unnoccupied reserved seat which staff can and do deal with (when other passengers don't step in to "manage" the situation themselves!).

I know which interpretation I'd feel happier defending!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ah, but if we are dealing with the same Guard/TM who may or may not remember the Op travelling before his current ticket is valid, may note that he may infact not be using his 'old' ticket which is not 'right', he has started the 'journey' so he must finish it!

Anyway, like I said previously (it appears some persons may have missed it), in 99% of cases like this, it'd probably be fine.

 

[MikeWh]

Ah, but if we are dealing with the same Guard/TM who may or may not remember the Op travelling before his current ticket is valid, may note that he may infact not be using his 'old' ticket which is not 'right', he has started the 'journey' so he must finish it!

Anyway, like I said previously (it appears some persons may have missed it), in 99% of cases like this, it'd probably be fine.

But he is finishing the journey. The only issue is that he's paid for the middle bit twice. There's nothing in the rules saying you can't do that!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But there is a bit that says you should occupy the seat shown on the ticket so it's fine if you are on the loo, at the shop/buffet, or walking/standing between Crewe and Preston, but as soon as you sit in a seat that is not shown on the ticket it is, technically, not a valid ticket anymore (connecting services on '& Connections' tickets and non-reservable services excepted).

I'm just saying is all, it's not like it is ever likely to be noticed and enforced, so if you are taking all this 100% seriously, then you need a breath of fresh air and a stretch of your legs.

 

[YorkshireRider]

But there is a bit that says you should occupy the seat shown on the ticket so it's fine if you are on the loo, at the shop/buffet, or walking/standing between Crewe and Preston, but as soon as you sit in a seat that is not shown on the ticket it is, technically, not a valid ticket anymore (connecting services on '& Connections' tickets and non-reservable services excepted).

I'm just saying is all, it's not like it is ever likely to be noticed and enforced, so if you are taking all this 100% seriously, then you need a breath of fresh air and a stretch of your legs.

WELL SAID, not even the most jobs worth guard/conductor would care less

 

[yorksrob]

Unless you are suggesting that the Op sits in the toilet cubicle of a Pendelino (not reknowned for it's comfy seat, window view or 'pleasant' aroma) between Crewe and Preston?hock::eek:

I don't think so. Whilst strictly speaking, one is not allowed to sit in a seat that hasn't been reserved, there is nothing to stop someone not sitting in a seat that they have reserved - as posters above have pointed out, the traveller could just be spending a long time at the buffet or in the loo, therefore, on the overlapping section, as long as they sat on one of the seats that they had reserved, there would presumably be nothing forcing them to sit on the other seat!

Or at least that's the way it looks to me

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . it's not like it is ever likely to be noticed and enforced, so if you are taking all this 100% seriously, then you need a breath of fresh air and a stretch of your legs.

WELL SAID, not even the most jobs worth guard/conductor would care less

It might help to add that this thread was started by the OP after a light hearted discussion about some of the other, more serious, attempts to interpret the CoC in particular cases.
Its regrettable that internet fora are poor at conveying the tone / spirit of a post.
I will admit that I laughed at the original proposition, but knowing the OP's knowledge and experience, it was clear that it was an amusing test of our knowledge, our balance between strict interpretation and pragmatic reality, and our response to an unlikely off-the-wall situation which wouldn't have been anticipated in the Regulations.

So, hhf and YR, its a fair question when having a sideways look at rail Terms and Conditions. It was asked with a smile and in good humour, so let's reply in the same vein.
But having said that, I still find it a very good twist on helping us all to read the NCoC in a realistic way!
Don't you?

 

[YorkshireRider]

Fair point, sorry.

 

[route:oxford]

Overlapping Advance tickets is something that everyone does isn't it?

Certainly, I've never had any issue going into a station, buying overlapping advance tickets, and a straight through reservation. Suspect that the ToC would be acting illegally if they refused to sell you the cheapest valid ticket for the journey.

As to the matching reservation, even on advance tickets on-train staff tend to act reasonably...

Recently, on a trip from Scotland to Oxford, I left my advance-reserved first class seat at Banbury and stood in the vestibule in order that a blind man (with guide-dog) could sit down. The XC guard thanked me rather than fined me...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Suspect that the ToC would be acting illegally if they refused to sell you the cheapest valid ticket for the journey....

Ticket office staff are obliged only to offer the cheapest through fare for the journey being made, unless the customer requests a specific ticket.

 

[John @ home]

I've never had any issue going into a station, buying overlapping advance tickets, and a straight through reservation.

That's interesting. I hadn't previously considered that that might be possible.

Can I ask whether you were issued with one reservation ticket for the whole journey, or several for the same seat which together added up to the whole journey?

And can you remember whether the overlapping part, that is the part for which you had more than one valid travel ticket, was for the reserved main part of the journey or the & Connections part?

 

[route:oxford]

That's interesting. I hadn't previously considered that that might be possible.

Can I ask whether you were issued with one reservation ticket for the whole journey, or several for the same seat which together added up to the whole journey?

And can you remember whether the overlapping part, that is the part for which you had more than one valid travel ticket, was for the reserved main part of the journey or the & Connections part?

Regularily on the rare through service from Edinburghxford. The reservation is for the full Edinburgh to Oxford or vice versa.

My split varies regularily depending on availability, so may be travelling on two tickets at any point between Birmingham & Newcastle.

Advance tickets have sold out in the 10 mins it takes me to walk to the station to buy them before - so if you're in urgent need of a bargain fare, don't leave it to chance.

 

[Halsebee]

Is this permissible within the rules on advance tickets?

Taking a hypothetical journey, Bristol - Leeds for example.
Could I buy an advance ticket from Bristol to, say, Derby, and another on the same train from Birmingham to Leeds, if these worked out cheaper than one through ticket (this is a hypothetical example, I've no idea if this would ever be cheaper). I wouldn't be leaving the train at Derby, but would have a valid ticket to continue the journey. I'd have two tickets for the Brum Derby section, could I be deemed to have travelled short by not "using" one of the tickets for this section?

 

[SS4]

Technically no due to break of journey restrictions but who's going to check? IMO where you split is changing from one ticket to another so you'd have to either stop short or join late

 

[yorkie]

The thread of the same title 9 months ago produced inconclusive results but it appears that the majority of respondents appeared to be in agreement that there is no rule that prevents it, and therefore it should be permitted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Technically no due to break of journey restrictions

Depends on how you define 'break of journey' and whether you can only be considered to be using one ticket at any one moment in time. I think that anyone would struggle to create such an interpretation that says this breaches break of journey rules.

but who's going to check?

Depends on where ticket checks take place. In the example given by the OP it would not be a problem due to the guard changing at [stn]BHM[/stn]. So the first ticket would be shown to the first guard, and the second guard would only need to see the second ticket. In another scenario it could of course be quite different.

I was once doubly-valid between two stations, and when presenting both tickets to the guard he looked confused and said I must have paid more than I should. However I pointed out the reasons why I did this, and that it was still cheaper than a through ticket. He was trying to be helpful but ended up quite confused. Some guards don't seem to realise quite how ludicrous our fares structure is, until they encounter people on bizarre tickets.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From The Fares Manual:

Introduction

Most passengers accept that cheaper tickets such as ‘Advance’ come with tight conditions. However, there are numerous questions that will arise from these conditions. These FAQs assume that passengers are travelling on “TOC X and Connections” or “TOC X only” routed tickets, and is in addition to what is shown on the main Advance ticket conditions page.

If the answer to your question is not shown below, then the bottom line is:
If it doesn’t say on the Conditions Card (or in the NRCoC) that ticket holders cannot do something, then they can do it!

It doesn't say anywhere that you can't overlap!

 

[b0b]

From The Fares Manual:



It doesn't say anywhere that you can't overlap!

Not going to argue with a gripper, here's hoping your colleagues are similarly enlightened.