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Train sitting in the station with doors locked, passengers waiting outside

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Llanigraham

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That's why the old Southern Region said "barrier" instead at termini.

If you can't recognise the platform end buffers you likely aren't going to identify which way the train is going to depart, and thus front/back either :) .

More straightforwardly, there has been so much effort and fuss in recent years to installing/retrofitting internal destination indicators on trains, but few seem capable of showing the different destinations in different carriages where the train is going to split en route - something which Old School Railway readily handled by having different paper destination labels pasted up at the doors.

What happens when the barriers are in the middle of a platform, such as Hereford, Ludlow or Leominster?
 
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Steve Harris

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No, that's not a comparable case. In general, when arriving at somewhere, the front is nearest to us and the rear furthest away. I think the front train/rear train confusion is entirely understandable. Referring to nearest train/furthest train from the buffers removes any confusion
It was a question to make the person who I quoted "think". It wasn't a straight comparison, it was to prove the point.
Most people know what front seats are in a car (a person sits in one and drives it), therefore, wherever the driver sits is the "front". I can't think of many cases in the uk where a driver doesn't drive at the front especially since Gronks pushing coaching stock (with passengers on board) onto the back of another service have all gone now. So, if the driver sits at the front, it's the front train (that's providing the other units are truely empty ie no staff on board).
 

stuu

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It was a question to make the person who I quoted "think". It wasn't a straight comparison, it was to prove the point.
Most people know what front seats are in a car (a person sits in one and drives it), therefore, wherever the driver sits is the "front". I can't think of many cases in the uk where a driver doesn't drive at the front especially since Gronks pushing coaching stock (with passengers on board) onto the back of another service have all gone now. So, if the driver sits at the front, it's the front train (that's providing the other units are truely empty ie no staff on board).
The question is not about the front of any train, it is which one is the front train from the point of view of someone stood at the barriers.
 

Bow Fell

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It’s all well an good coming out with garbage like, “it wasn’t like this back in BR days” or “let’s make things less convenient for passengers”


But it’s different when it’s your job and you have responsibility to follow instructions.

If your docket says “DISP” - dispose, then believe it or not, you do it. That’s the instruction. If you don’t and unfortunately in the unlikely event that something happens, then it won’t be the armchair critics in here, getting a please explain, or worse, will it?!
 

Steve Harris

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The question is not about the front of any train, it is which one is the front train from the point of view of someone stood at the barriers.
I'm well aware of that ! But if you have 2 Class 158 units sitting 6 feet apart in 1 platform with buffer stops at one end. It doesn't matter if you look at the front of the train nearest the buffer stops. It ain't going nowhere until the one in front of it has moved out of the way ! I'm sure some people think the one nearest the buffers/barrier/concourse is going to magically jump over the other one !! (Yes the one in front might be an ECS but in the majority of cases the one furthest from the buffers will form the next service). Which of course ties in with my earlier analogy (the front of s train will always lead, as that is were it is driven from). It really isn't Rocket Science.
 

stuu

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I'm well aware of that ! But if you have 2 Class 158 units sitting 6 feet apart in 1 platform with buffer stops at one end. It doesn't matter if you look at the front of the train nearest the buffer stops. It ain't going nowhere until the one in front of it has moved out of the way ! I'm sure some people think the one nearest the buffers/barrier/concourse is going to magically jump over the other one !! (Yes the one in front might be an ECS but in the majority of cases the one furthest from the buffers will form the next service). Which of course ties in with my earlier analogy (the front of s train will always lead, as that is were it is driven from). It really isn't Rocket Science.
If at a hypothetical terminus, an announcement is made that "The train to A is the front train on platform 1, the train to B is the rear train on platform 1", then from the point of view of the concourse/barriers/buffers, it is entirely understandable to me that someone might assume front train means nearest, especially if they didn't pay attention to the departure times of both trains

It is just possible that people have different opinions and there is not one right answer.
 

Need2

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First it was “what is a train” and now it’s “what is the front of a train ?”
Only on this forum :rolleyes:
 

Steve Harris

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If at a hypothetical terminus, an announcement is made that "The train to A is the front train on platform 1, the train to B is the rear train on platform 1", then from the point of view of the concourse/barriers/buffers, it is entirely understandable to me that someone might assume front train means nearest, especially if they didn't pay attention to the departure times of both trains

It is just possible that people have different opinions and there is not one right answer.
Now why am I not surprised you answered with more excuses. The cynic in me just thinks your having an argument just for the sake of it. If people don't take notice of departure times or where their train leaves from and they get on the wrong train then it's down to them, no one else, it is called personal responsibility!
Something I admit is lacking in the modern world becsuse even politicians blame everyone else, even though it was their decision which made the sh!t hit the fan. Give it a few more years and people will be employing someone else to wipe their bottom, becuse they'll have no personal responsibility to do it themselves !!

First it was “what is a train” and now it’s “what is the front of a train ?”
Only on this forum :rolleyes:
Indeed.

You only have to look at the 'What is a train' thread. Some of the posters on here really should be on 'Question Time' !!
 

YorksLad12

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First it was “what is a train” and now it’s “what is the front of a train ?”
Only on this forum :rolleyes:
I did used to joke that I can tell one end of a train (multiple unit) from another. The front is the end with the white lights...
 

XAM2175

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Give it a few more years and people will be employing someone else to wipe their bottom, becuse they'll have no personal responsibility to do it themselves !!
Employing somebody to attend to one's backside seems like the very finest expression of this Buccaneering Britain spirit-of-free-enterprise lark we're all embarked on, if you ask me.

(If - on the other hand - this is a talking point you've taken from the Daily Mail, you may wish to amend it to read 'demanding the state employ somebody...' in order to better cover all the reductio ad absurdum bases)
 

lachlan

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Now why am I not surprised you answered with more excuses. The cynic in me just thinks your having an argument just for the sake of it. If people don't take notice of departure times or where their train leaves from and they get on the wrong train then it's down to them, no one else, it is called personal responsibility!
Something I admit is lacking in the modern world becsuse even politicians blame everyone else, even though it was their decision which made the sh!t hit the fan. Give it a few more years and people will be employing someone else to wipe their bottom, becuse they'll have no personal responsibility to do it themselves !!


Indeed.

You only have to look at the 'What is a train' thread. Some of the posters on here really should be on 'Question Time' !!
Your argument is ridiculous. For a start, the "front" of the train does not always lead, for example when travelling from Doncaster to Beverley the train changes direction at Hull. And secondly, not everyone speaks English, or is familiar with trains. The passenger may be in a rush, or have a disability, or mishear an announcement or whatever. The railway has a duty to be accessible and easy to use, taking a train is not a test. Every announcement, display, and helpful staff member is welcome IMO and you shouldn't need "personal responsibility" (whatever that means) to take the train.
 

jon0844

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The fact it is possible to argue what front means suggests it is better to remove any chance of confusion - and use wording like 'furthest from the concourse' or similar. Also make sure the next train indicators are as clear as possible.

In the case of Norwich, they have those fancy new colour screens with loads of (IMO pointless and distracting) animations, but surely such displays could show a visual representation of the platform and show the services accordingly in visual form. At the very least, ensure the PIS on the train is operating too so people boarding can see what train they're getting on.

Sure, you'd still get some people totally oblivious, but I think you'd reduce the problem as much as possible for the situations where you can't shut a train down.
 

lachlan

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The fact it is possible to argue what front means suggests it is better to remove any chance of confusion - and use wording like 'furthest from the concourse' or similar. Also make sure the next train indicators are as clear as possible.

In the case of Norwich, they have those fancy new colour screens with loads of (IMO pointless and distracting) animations, but surely such displays could show a visual representation of the platform and show the services accordingly in visual form. At the very least, ensure the PIS on the train is operating too so people boarding can see what train they're getting on.

Sure, you'd still get some people totally oblivious, but I think you'd reduce the problem as much as possible for the situations where you can't shut a train down.
What would be ideal would be multiple displays along the length of the platform that each say what the train/carriage/door is adjacent to that display. So wherever you are, the display nearest you says what the train nearest you is doing. I don't know if this is technically feasible however. Platform staff can kind of do this already, of course.
 

stuu

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Now why am I not surprised you answered with more excuses. The cynic in me just thinks your having an argument just for the sake of it. If people don't take notice of departure times or where their train leaves from and they get on the wrong train then it's down to them, no one else, it is called personal responsibility!
No, you are being narrow minded. If I walk up to your house from the street, do I get to the front first or the back first? Traditionally, when referring to things, the front is the first thing we come to. This is standard English usage
 

XAM2175

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In the case of Norwich, they have those fancy new colour screens with loads of (IMO pointless and distracting) animations, but surely such displays could show a visual representation of the platform and show the services accordingly in visual form.
What would be ideal would be multiple displays along the length of the platform that each say what the train/carriage/door is adjacent to that display.

You could divide the platform into sectors that would be identified by letters, perhaps, and then signpost these sectors on the platform, and then show on the platform displays the sectors with which the train is aligned.

You could perhaps even then show on the same displays the sectors with which different classes of accommodation are aligned, especially where longer trains are involved, or to show in advance how a train will be divided at a station down the line.

Regrettably however this practice is already in use in foreign lands and as such can never hope to be of any use in meeting the totally and completely unique challenges we face here in Britain.

753px-ICE-International_1826_Bahnsteiganzeige.jpg

Image from Wikimedia Commons showing the electronic display at the entrance to a platform at Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof in Germany. The display shows the platform is occupied by a train that will later divide into two portions, and that the portion destined for Amsterdam will be boarded from platform sectors D, E, and F, while the portion for Dortmund will be boarded from sectors A, B, and C.
 

jon0844

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Modern Infotec dot matrix screens could show something like that (many new ones now show the coaches in graphical form), and colour screens/LCDs would have no issue.
 

infobleep

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You would never have to stay with the unit. That’s not an official place to have a break. Has to be an agreed messroom with all available facilities.
So how do they keep the doors open given so many other places need to close them?

Agreed entirely, but that doesn't mean you have to unlock the train - better comms, better shelters and better seats would go a long way. maybe don't advertise platforms at termini until the train is ready to be unlocked as well.
Maybe those stations where trains are left open should be locking them up. At least it would be uniform across the industry then
 
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Aictos

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Only frustrating to the railway cognoscenti. To the general public, FRONT is the first one you come to. REAR is the one at the back of it.

The Southern cracked this long ago for their many portioned trains, it was then "4 coaches nearest the barrier", along with "4 coaches furthest from barrier". Useful expressions probably eliminated by the same managerial approach that finds leaving the passengers out on the platform, when they could be comfortably sat down waiting for departure, is somehow a good thing (see multiple posts above).
Not elsewhere, the FRONT is always the train at the FRONT of the platform and the REAR is always the train by the buffers so if you're coming though the concourse and though the ticket barriers eg Kings Cross then the train on the buffers is the REAR not the FRONT as you have stated.

Not rocket science to work out which train will leave first but then again people struggle with the concept that if there are two trains in the platform (using bay platforms here) that the train at the rear eg by the buffers cannot leave until the train at the front eg furthest away from the buffers has departed first.
 

24Grange

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I know the many reasons why the train is locked with the passengers waiting on the platform, and I'm OK with that. However a little nagging devil on my shoulder tells me "the railways are run for the benefit of the railway - not the ticket paying passengers" ( who only want to sit down!) and that thought comes to mind when we are all standing there like lemons. Are there less and less seats ( apart from covid stickers on the ones that remain) on stations now?- my perception is there seems to be.
 

ExRes

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Based on my past experiences at Nottingham, you can have as many platform staff, announcements and information displays as you want but you'll still get Skegness bound passengers trying to board London bound trains, keeping the doors locked until the Skeggy left was the only real option
 

dosxuk

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At Norwich catching the Liverpool train is always great for this. First you get the Cambridge train on top of the Liverpool train, so loads of people for that try the doors on the Liverpool one but generally keep going until they realise there's a separate train up ahead. Then once that's left and the doors are unlocked, there's always a few people who have to jump back off at the last minute when they realise it's going to Liverpool and not Liverpool Street.

Far too many people just assume the train in front of them is going where they want. If keeping doors locked until there are staff around helps reduce the number of problems then I see nothing wrong with it - even ignoring all the other good reasons listed above.
 

strawbrick

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No, you are being narrow minded. If I walk up to your house from the street, do I get to the front first or the back first? Traditionally, when referring to things, the front is the first thing we come to. This is standard English usage
Except that, whichever way you approach, the front of the house is the front and the back of the house is the back. The same as a car or a bus. In the later case, irrespective of whether the entrance is at the back or the front!

With respect to two trains standing standing waiting to depart, if the platform entrance is at the buffers the front train is the second one you come to. If it is at the other end of the platform then the front train is the first one you come to. If it is the middle, then, unless it is a terminal platform when the first train is the one with clear track in front of it - which you may not be able to see, otherwise it can be anyone's guess!

Irrespective of the actual location of the "front train", it is quite possible that passengers who are not familiar with the system will make a mistake. Even "experienced" passengers in a hurry have been known to misread the departure boards and get on the wrong train!

To counter this, on the commuter trains out of Euston they used to lock-off the second unit and put a marker board on the platform at the end of the first unit. Mention of locking-off brings me back to the topic.

Again at Euston, on many occasions I and many others who have arrived early have stood for a considerable period of time by the closed doors of our train, waiting for the crew to arrive and open the doors, whilst on other occasions the doors have were open and so we could sit down. I never understood why.

Finally, about five years ago I spent 10 days on a grand train tour of England, Scotland and Wales. AFAIR, apart from the first trains from the terminus in the mornings very few were locked-off when we arrived, but the majority of those DMU's which were had the engines running ...
 

dk1

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At Norwich catching the Liverpool train is always great for this. First you get the Cambridge train on top of the Liverpool train, so loads of people for that try the doors on the Liverpool one but generally keep going until they realise there's a separate train up ahead. Then once that's left and the doors are unlocked, there's always a few people who have to jump back off at the last minute when they realise it's going to Liverpool and not Liverpool Street.

Far too many people just assume the train in front of them is going where they want. If keeping doors locked until there are staff around helps reduce the number of problems then I see nothing wrong with it - even ignoring all the other good reasons listed above.
Exactly, it makes perfect sense although it's often the XX:45 Sheringham on top of the East Mids these days in platform 4. The Stansteds at 27 or 33 tend to go from 2 or 3.
 

BrianW

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Exactly, it makes perfect sense although it's often the XX:45 Sheringham on top of the East Mids these days in platform 4. The Stansteds at 27 or 33 tend to go from 2 or 3.
Getting clearer?
At Norwich catching the Liverpool train is always great for this. First you get the Cambridge train on top of the Liverpool train, so loads of people for that try the doors on the Liverpool one but generally keep going until they realise there's a separate train up ahead. Then once that's left and the doors are unlocked, there's always a few people who have to jump back off at the last minute when they realise it's going to Liverpool and not Liverpool Street.

Far too many people just assume the train in front of them is going where they want. If keeping doors locked until there are staff around helps reduce the number of problems then I see nothing wrong with it - even ignoring all the other good reasons listed above.

- not only do we have front trains behind but trains on top ... and trains sitting and standing and sat and stood ...

I'm reminded of some 'direction' being given by a member of staff to a passenger at Heathrow- you go down here... meaning along here; the poor passenger is to my mind understandably looking for some stairs to go down.

Also wondering whether referring to the train for London rather than Liverpool Street would help ... I came in my mind to Cambridge- is it possible to have trains to Liverpool, London/Liverpool Street and London/Kings Cross/ St Pancras International in mind?
 
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Steve Harris

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Employing somebody to attend to one's backside seems like the very finest expression of this Buccaneering Britain spirit-of-free-enterprise lark we're all embarked on, if you ask me.

(If - on the other hand - this is a talking point you've taken from the Daily Mail, you may wish to amend it to read 'demanding the state employ somebody...' in order to better cover all the reductio ad absurdum bases)
Sorry I don't read the Daily Mail, actually I don't read any tabloids and the spin and bull they sell.

Your argument is ridiculous. For a start, the "front" of the train does not always lead, for example when travelling from Doncaster to Beverley the train changes direction at Hull. And secondly, not everyone speaks English, or is familiar with trains. The passenger may be in a rush, or have a disability, or mishear an announcement or whatever. The railway has a duty to be accessible and easy to use, taking a train is not a test. Every announcement, display, and helpful staff member is welcome IMO and you shouldn't need "personal responsibility" (whatever that means) to take the train.
Sorry, your argument is the one which is ridiculous. As I said previously, like a bus, the driver drives from the front. Using that analogy, at Hull when the train changes direction the back (on arrival) becomes the front (on depature to Beverley) and thereby the front (on arrival) becomes the back !

Btw, personal responsibility is responsibility for ones own actions (or lack thereof). It's the one the boss uses to sack you when you try and blame someone else for something you did.
It is also the responsibility you use when your not sure of something and you ask. People who have a disability who don't have the cognitive ability for personal responsibility will have a carer who will act on there behalf. Does that clear it up ?

If not try https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-sequence-of-personal-responsibility/

Getting clearer?


- not only do we have front trains behind but trains on top ... and trains sitting and standing and sat and stood ...

I'm reminded of some 'direction' being given by a member of staff to a passenger at Heathrow- you go down here... meaning along here; the poor passenger is to my mind understandably looking for some stairs to go down.

Also wondering whether referring to the train for London rather than Liverpool Street would help ... I came in my mind to Cambridge- is it possible to have trains to Liverpool, London/Liverpool Street and London/Kings Cross/ St Pancras International in mind?
I don't think there are any direct trains from Cambridge to Liverpool Lime Street anymore. There used to be in the 80's though.
 
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PeterC

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When you had a great big kettle billowing smoke and steam it was pretty obvious that the "front" was at the "country end". With modern trains constructed along the lines of Dr Doolittle's pushme-pullyu a novice traveller, confronted by a driving cab facing the barriers, could easily assume that that is the "front".

When giving any sort of advice or instruction in any field it is important to eliminate the risk of multiple interpretations.
 

Factotum

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I had an annoying experience at Man Pic earlier this year.
About ten minutes before departure the board announced that the front train on platform 1 was for Glossop, my destination.
I went along the platform climbed aboard and dozed off for fifteen minutes. When I woke up, five minutes after the tabled departure time we had not moved. I queried a passing functionary and was informed that the train from Glossop had arrived five minutes ago, thus becoming the front train, and had left almost at once.
How we laughed.
 

skyhigh

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I had an annoying experience at Man Pic earlier this year.
About ten minutes before departure the board announced that the front train on platform 1 was for Glossop, my destination.
I went along the platform climbed aboard and dozed off for fifteen minutes. When I woke up, five minutes after the tabled departure time we had not moved. I queried a passing functionary and was informed that the train from Glossop had arrived five minutes ago, thus becoming the front train, and had left almost at once.
How we laughed.
Which is a perfect example for why doors may be left locked.
 

scrapy

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The biggest problem with front train only (or furthest from concourse) was the which front train is when the front train hasn't arrived.

Manchester Piccadilly used to have all from the same platform, a Hull service from the far end, a New Mills Central in the middle, and then a Rose Hill Marple train nearest the concourse. To complicate things more, the Rose Hill was formed of a 150 and a 142, two different looking trains.

The Rose Hill train would arrive first, yet the departure screens would show the next departure being 'Hull front train only'. If it was left open then some passengers would quite reasonably board the front unit for Hull. The train crew had other booked work, so would not be with the train.

The New Mills train would then arrive so some passengers would board that for Hull, after all that's now the front or furthest train.

The Hull train only had a few minutes turnaround, often arriving late. Announcements would be made that the Hull train was the front train only, but passengers already sat on the other two trains wouldnt be bothered because when they boarded they were on the front train.

The front train then leaves without them.
 
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