Aviation Discussion

[Bald Rick]

First how are airlines managing to survive the pandemic?

In addition to the replies above, the cost base of an airline is highly marginal. Fuel alone represents about a third of the costs, with staff about another third. If you’re not flying, you don’t spend money on fuel, and most (if not all) airlines have been absolutely ruthless about staff costs - ie enforced unpaid leave, redundancies, pay cuts etc.

 

[najaB]

In addition to the replies above, the cost base of an airline is highly marginal. Fuel alone represents about a third of the costs, with staff about another third. If you’re not flying, you don’t spend money on fuel, and most (if not all) airlines have been absolutely ruthless about staff costs - ie enforced unpaid leave, redundancies, pay cuts etc.

True. I forgot to mention, for a lot of legacies it's true that they make almost as much with what's under the seats as what's in them. Hence we've seen a lot of "empty" aircraft flying - empty of passengers but the holds (and in some cases the cabin) filled with time-sensitive freight.

Some airlines have even started routes that they didn't/couldn't serve as passenger routes. As an example, VS has been tagging on a BGI-SJU-BGI round trip to their existing LHR-BGI route so that they can offer a SJU/LHR freight service. BA have done ANU-SJU at least a few times, not sure if they've continued it.

 

[berneyarms]

Stobart Air (who operate the Aer Lingus Regional franchise) have gone into liquidation this morning.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Stobart Air (who operate the Aer Lingus Regional franchise) have gone into liquidation this morning.

Their website is still functional to an extent but for how much longer I'm unsure.

 

[berneyarms]

Their website is still functional to an extent but for how much longer I'm unsure.

They are definitely gone into liquidation. They didn't operate flights in their own right so the website being live isn't really an issue.

Some Aer Lingus Regional flights to resume tomorrow

Aer Lingus said it has developed plans to replace some of the Aer Lingus Regional schedule disrupted by the decision of Stobart Air to terminate its contract to run the service.

www.rte.ie

Aer Lingus cancels all Stobart Air regional flights​

All Aer Lingus regional flights operated by Stobart Air have been cancelled with immediate effect after Stobart Air announced it has ceased operations.

Aer Lingus said the airline informed them last night it was terminating its franchise agreement with Aer Lingus and was in the process of appointing a liquidator.

Aer Lingus said it is now communicating to customers to advise them of their options for refund or rebooking.

Customers who were booked to travel on flights operated by Stobart Air are advised not to go to the airport and to check the Aer Lingus website for updated information on refund or rebooking options.

Among the first flights to be cancelled were the 9.10am from Dublin to Glasgow and the 12.25pm from Dublin to Kerry this afternoon.

All Stobart Air flights on the following routes are cancelled: Dublin/Kerry; Dublin/Donegal; Dublin/Glasgow; Dublin/Edinburgh; Dublin/Manchester; Dublin/Newquay; Belfast City/Manchester; Belfast City/Birmingham; Belfast City/Edinburgh; Belfast City/Leeds Bradford, Belfast City/Exeter; Belfast City/East Midlands.



In a statement this morning, Stobart Air referred to the continuing impact of the Covid-19 pandemic which has resulted in almost no flying since March 2020.

"Last April, Stobart Air announced that a new owner had been identified. However, it has emerged that the funding to support this transaction is no longer in place and the new owner is now unable to conclude the transaction," the statement said.

"Given the continued impact of the pandemic which has virtually halted air travel since March 2019 and in the absence of any alternative purchasers or sources of funding, the Board of Stobart Air must take the necessary, unavoidable and difficult decision to seek to appoint a liquidator."

The company said all it s 480 staff have been informed of the decision.

Yesterday, Aer Lingus also announced it has cancelled a number of flights to European destinations due to poor demand from customers.

The routes have been cancelled for the remainder of 2021.

 

[najaB]

I wonder how Aer Lingus will fill the gap in their schedules? Wet lease in the short term I guess. Maybe Logan Air in the longer term.

Edit: Found the answer, seems it's a new player: https://www.blueskynews.aero/issue-...rald-Airlines-already-showing-its-mettle.html

 

[berneyarms]

Emerald are due to take over at the end of 2022. But that may happen sooner.

Some routes might see limited service using an A320, but the PSO routes to Donegal and Kerry are the real issue.

 

[Butts]

Glad I booked my upcoming trips to Belfast and Dublin before Stobart went under.

It may just be a coincidence but both have shot up in price today.

BA must be the only happy people about this unfortunate development.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I can see Loganair eventually stepping in to secure the links to/from Scotland.

 

[ainsworth74]

As an example, VS has been tagging on a BGI-SJU-BGI round trip to their existing LHR-BGI route so that they can offer a SJU/LHR freight service. BA have done ANU-SJU at least a few times, not sure if they've continued it.

Where? Who? What?

 

[najaB]

Where? Who? What?

LOL. I thought a sub-sub forum would be okay to use acronyms. VS = Virgin Atlantic, LHR = London Heathrow, BGI = Barbados Grantley Adams International, SJU = Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport, San Juan, BA = British Airways , ANU = VC Bird International Airport, Antigua.

 

[daodao]

LOL. I thought a sub-sub forum would be okay to use acronyms. VS = Virgin Atlantic, LHR = London Heathrow, BGI = Barbados Grantley Adams International, SJU = Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport, San Juan, BA = British Airways , ANU = VC Bird International Airport, Antigua.

Ideally abbreviations should be defined on first use, but "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer (why the smilie?). BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from London airports (City/Gatwick/Heathrow), and it is wholly owned by a company (International Airlines Group) registered in Madrid.

 

[berneyarms]

Ideally abbreviations should be defined on first use, but "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer (why the smilie?). BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from Heathrow, and it is wholly owned by a company (International Airlines Group) registered in Madrid. It does not fly to the six counties at all, and leaves the Irish flag carrier Air Lingus (also part of the International Airlines Group) to provide services to Belfast (City Airport).

That’s not correct.
BA do fly from Heathrow to Belfast City, and BA Cityflyer fly from London City to Belfast City.

 

[najaB]

BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from Heathrow

I'm not sure I even get the point you're trying to make. If BA served an extensive domestic market you'd probably be complaining about them having a monopoly on both domestic and long-haul flying.

 

[Butts]

I can see Loganair eventually stepping in to secure the links to/from Scotland.

Yes, along with their "bargain fares".

Come back Flybe all is forgiven.

Ideally abbreviations should be defined on first use, but "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer (why the smilie?). BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from Heathrow, and it is wholly owned by a company (International Airlines Group) registered in Madrid. It does not fly to the six counties at all, and leaves the Irish flag carrier Air Lingus (also part of the International Airlines Group) to provide services to Belfast (City Airport).

Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle and Manchester might beg to disagree plus a few others.

More importantly this offers a connection to the whole BA Network of Worldwide Services.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Ideally abbreviations should be defined on first use, but "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer (why the smilie?). BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from Heathrow, and it is wholly owned by a company (International Airlines Group) registered in Madrid. It does not fly to the six counties at all, and leaves the Irish flag carrier Air Lingus (also part of the International Airlines Group) to provide services to Belfast (City Airport).

Well, to be pedantic, it should be BS

No, not that BS !! British Scareways.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure I even get the point you're trying to make. If BA served an extensive domestic market you'd probably be complaining about them having a monopoly on both domestic and long-haul flying.

The point he was making is that it doesn't provide a meaningful service for most of the UK and therefore its not really a national carrier but an airline for London. Almost all flights it runs start or end at a London airport. As a business its not a bad model but it being referred to as our national carrier is a bit misleading. Its rarely the cheapest or time efficient option for people living in much of the Midlands, the North, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland because of a refusal to provide direct international services from non London airports. It doesn't provide a single service from Wales and it has three infrequent seasonal Scottish services that avoid London. It runs a handful of non London services from Northern Ireland, none are international.

 

[Butts]

The point he was making is that it doesn't provide a meaningful service for most of the UK and therefore its not really a national carrier but an airline for London. Almost all flights it runs start or end at a London airport. As a business its not a bad model but it being referred to as our national carrier is a bit misleading. Its rarely the cheapest or time efficient option for people living in much of the Midlands, the North, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland because of a refusal to provide direct international services from non London airports. It doesn't provide a single service from Wales and it has three infrequent seasonal Scottish services that avoid London. It runs a handful of non London services from Northern Ireland, none are international.

If you were one of the proponents with regard to democratisation and hence expansion of UK Air Travel are you really surprised ?

Not all of it's attributes have been beneficial to travellers in some parts of the Country.

Having said that BA still connects most of Scotland to the rest of the World from it's Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness Departure Points. No one else comes close.

 

[daodao]

That’s not correct.
BA do fly from Heathrow to Belfast City, and BA Cityflyer fly from London City to Belfast City.

Apologies for the error; I have amended my original post.

The point he was making is that it doesn't provide a meaningful service for most of the UK and therefore its not really a national carrier but an airline for London. Almost all flights it runs start or end at a London airport. As a business its not a bad model but it being referred to as our national carrier is a bit misleading. Its rarely the cheapest or time efficient option for people living in much of the Midlands, the North, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland because of a refusal to provide direct international services from non London airports. It doesn't provide a single service from Wales and it has three infrequent seasonal Scottish services that avoid London. It runs a handful of non London services from Northern Ireland, none are international.

Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make.

The non-London services that British Airways now appear to serve from Belfast City Airport have been added in the last 4 hours since my original post. These are presumably routes that they have stepped in to cover as a member of the International Airlines Group (IAG), following the demise of Aer Lingus Regional/Stobart Air.

 

[najaB]

As a business its not a bad model but it being referred to as our national carrier is a bit misleading.

KLM serves 3 domestic destinations other than Schiphol. Does that make them not the Dutch national carrier?

 

[TravelDream]

KLM serves 3 domestic destinations other than Schiphol. Does that make them not the Dutch national carrier?

I don't agree with the poster above. BA is a commercial company and it is their duty to shareholders to fly where they can make the most profit.

However, the Netherlands is tiny compared to Britain so it is hardly a fair comparison. Almost the whole country is within a 2 hour drive of the airport which also sits on one of the main train lines into Amsterdam.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I note it brings the return of British Airways to Leeds Bradford and Exeter!

 

[daodao]

BA is a commercial company and it is their duty to shareholders to fly where they can make the most profit.

That's fine. I was merely suggesting that the name "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer. As an airline, it is of little practical use to most people in the North of England. It has clearly decided, presumably for commercial reasons, that running services from English regional airports isn't viable with its high cost model of operation.

I note it brings the return of British Airways to Leeds Bradford and Exeter!

I expect this only to be temporary to plug a short notice loss of service, until a lower cost carrier can be found. Has BA ever served Exeter? BKS used to provide the Leeds-Belfast air service (my late uncle used it regularly for business travel up to 1970); it was subsequently incorporated into BA after a period as the British European Airways subsidiary called Northeast Airlines.

 

[Butts]

That's fine. I was merely suggesting that its name is a misnomer. As an airline, it is of little practical use to most people in the North of England. It has clearly decided, presumably for commercial reasons, that running services from English regional airports isn't viable with its high cost model of operation.


I expect this only to be temporary to plug a short notice loss of service, until a lower cost carrier can be found. Has British Airways ever served Exeter? BKS used to provide the Leeds-Belfast air service (my late uncle used it regularly for business travel up to 1970); it was subsequently incorporated into British Airways after a period as the British European Airways subsidiary called Northeast Airlines.

Depends what you mean by The North of England.

How many people live within driving distance of Manchester or Newcastle ?

I notice you conveniently ignore Scotland.

 

[Chester1]

I don't agree with the poster above. BA is a commercial company and it is their duty to shareholders to fly where they can make the most profit.

However, the Netherlands is tiny compared to Britain so it is hardly a fair comparison. Almost the whole country is within a 2 hour drive of the airport which also sits on one of the main train lines into Amsterdam.

I very much agree, the equivalent would be Lufthansa only doing international services from Frankfurt. I don't disagree with the business model, its just not really a British carrier when it only provides a meaningful service to one part of England. I guess London Airways doesn't sound as good.

 

[TravelDream]

Ideally abbreviations should be defined on first use, but "British" Airways (BA) is a misnomer (why the smilie?). BA would be more appropriately called London Airways as it hardly serves the rest of Great Britain, bar a few flights to/from London airports (City/Gatwick/Heathrow), and it is wholly owned by a company (International Airlines Group) registered in Madrid.

A few points to add to those above.

- Britain has the highest domestic flight tax rate in the world. Not one of the highest, but the highest. It makes it much more difficult to operate flights profitably as so much of the sticker price on a discount base fare goes to the Government

- BA does have a relatively large domestic network. They fly to Aberdeen, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, Manchester, Newcastle and Newquay (also Jersey and Gibraltar if you counted them). What do they all have in common? They are fairly big and/or popular destination that are a reasonably far distance from London to make the flights viable.

- BA in registered in London, though their parent group is registered in Spain. Registration with airlines is a tricky business. Is Ryanair British? Is Wizzair British? Both have British AOCs so are technically British airlines, though most would say they aren't.

 

[Wolfie]

A few points to add to those above.

- Britain has the highest domestic flight tax rate in the world. Not one of the highest, but the highest. It makes it much more difficult to operate flights profitably as so much of the sticker price on a discount base fare goes to the Government

- BA does have a relatively large domestic network. They fly to Aberdeen, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, Manchester, Newcastle and Newquay (also Jersey and Gibraltar if you counted them). What do they all have in common? They are fairly big and/or popular destination that are a reasonably far distance from London to make the flights viable.

- BA in registered in London, though their parent group is registered in Spain. Registration with airlines is a tricky business. Is Ryanair British? Is Wizzair British? Both have British AOCs so are technically British airlines, though most would say they aren't.

With respect to BA it used to operate a much more substantial domestic schedule. It outsourced or ceased many of these. Presumably either not economically viable or scarce slots could be better used serving other destinations.

Neither Ryanair nor Wizzair had UK AOCs prior to BREXIT and had that not happened they likely still would not. As it was adopting that model offered them advantages. Less than coincidentally EasyJet set up EU based subsidiaries too.

 

[TravelDream]

With respect to BA it used to operate a much more substantial domestic schedule. It outsourced or ceased many of these. Presumably either not economically viable or scarce slots could be better used serving other destinations.

Neither Ryanair nor Wizzair had UK AOCs prior to BREXIT and had that not happened they likely still would not. As it was adopting that model offered them advantages. Less than coincidentally EasyJet set up EU based subsidiaries too.

It did operate quite substantially domestically under the BA Connect brand. That was flogged to flybe in the mid 2000s. Now whatever happened to them?

The people blaming BA here are just brainless. The main issue lies with the government. Too much resistance/ too little investment in infrastructure, and too high domestic taxes.
Why are we still talking about a privately funded third runway at Heathrow decades on? Why does a flight from London to Paris or Brussels pay less tax than a flight from London to Newcastle or Edinburgh?

 

[berneyarms]

Regional aviation across these islands has gone through repeated cycles of contraction and expansion. Both former national airlines, Aer Lingus and British Airways, have developed regional networks and then contracted them, taken over other airlines and then either franchised out or divested the regional services.

It's almost a "wash, rinse, and repeat" cycle at this stage.

 

[gsnedders]

Anyone used Vueling? As I understand it, they're a low cost airline owned by the IAG group but never used them so just wondered what views of them were?

They're another low cost carrier. Nothing particularly notable about them, IMO? Bit little in the way of legroom from my point-of-view, but they're far from the only LCC in that position. (And I'm tall but I'm not that tall.)

In addition to the replies above, the cost base of an airline is highly marginal. Fuel alone represents about a third of the costs, with staff about another third. If you’re not flying, you don’t spend money on fuel, and most (if not all) airlines have been absolutely ruthless about staff costs - ie enforced unpaid leave, redundancies, pay cuts etc.

Though a fair bit of fuel costs has historically been heavily hedged. BA for example were very heavily bitten by this at the start of the pandemic: they had contracts in place for a pretty large amount of fuel, which they were still obliged to pay even if they weren't using the fuel.