Rationale for the offering of HM Forces Railcard

[AlbertBeale]

Mod note - split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-would-you-reform-the-railcard-system.218819

I don't like the "political posturing" that was presumably the reason for the forces' and veterans' discount cards - and see no logic in those cards.

 

[AM9]

I don't like the "political posturing" that was presumably the reason for the forces' and veterans' discount cards - and see no logic in those cards.

I've thought that as well. The Paris Metro has had servicemen discounts and even seats for decades, which is similar virtue signalling. Maybe Johnson will introduce Union flag moquette seat coverings on trains exclusively for his beloved 'national heroes'.

 

[Vespa]

I don't like the "political posturing" that was presumably the reason for the forces' and veterans' discount cards - and see no logic in those cards.

It's seen as a reward for serving their country, some indeed have part of their body blown off, mental issues, given up their time ensure we can live freely and speak English, certainly a lot more than somebody qualifying for a 16-17, two together railcard. Network railcard or a priv pass.....

There is no political posturing only public support for it.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It's seen as a reward for serving their country, some indeed have part of their body blown off, mental issues, given up their time ensure we can live freely and speak English, certainly a lot more than somebody qualifying for a 16-17, two together railcard. Network railcard or a priv pass.....

There is no political posturing only public support for it.

Lots of people serve their community (not sure why the specific concept of "country" is relevant), at risk to themselves. If public services are to be priced according to the perceived value to the community of the user, where will it end? If we are to go down that route, I'd prioritise people who take risks on our behalf without also being trained to kill their/our fellow human beings to order.

 

[Vespa]

Lots of people serve their community (not sure why the specific concept of "country" is relevant), at risk to themselves. If public services are to be priced according to the perceived value to the community of the user, where will it end? If we are to go down that route, I'd prioritise people who take risks on our behalf without also being trained to kill their/our fellow human beings to order.

I don't see how you can defend this country without being forced to kill the enemy,
You have defeated your own argument.

If you can read this thank a teacher, if you're reading this in English thank a soldier,
a Veterans & Forces railcard is a small reward for that.

Si vis pacem, Parabellum.
If you want peace, prepare for war.

Tacitus.

I don't buy into this anti military rehetoric, it's self defeating, even Soviets have soldiers in spite of claiming "socialism" as do Putin as long as there are enemies, there will be a need for a defensive force, there's simply no option.

Of course you will think the opposite.

This is my last word on this subject and back on topic...Railcards !

 

[AM9]

I don't see how you can defend this country without being forced to kill the enemy,
You have defeated your own argument. .....

..... I don't buy into this anti military rehetoric, it's self defeating, even Soviets have soldiers in spite of claiming "socialism" as do Putin as long as there are enemies, there will be a need for a defensive force, there's simply no option.

Of course you will think the opposite.

This is my last word on this subject and back on topic...Railcards !

@AlbertBeale didn't say that the country could be defended without killing enemies, he said: "I'd prioritise people who take risks on our behalf without also being trained to kill their/our fellow human beings to order." That is perfectly possible and forms the basis of health service, fire services and to a degree most of the police service. He just doesn't see trained killers in a priority group of occupations for railcard privileges.

You've also done the knee-jerk response with implying the @AlbertBeale is a sympathiser of Russia. Couldn't get more off-topic in a discussion about Railcards.

 

[Vespa]

@AlbertBeale didn't say that the country could be defended without killing enemies, he said: "I'd prioritise people who take risks on our behalf without also being trained to kill their/our fellow human beings to order." That is perfectly possible and forms the basis of health service, fire services and to a degree most of the police service. He just doesn't see trained killers in a priority group of occupations for railcard privileges.

You've also done the knee-jerk response with implying the @AlbertBeale is a sympathiser of Russia. Couldn't get more off-topic in a discussion about Railcards.

It does come across as a left-wing viewpoint to me, being as such I see in the context of anti military, no matter how you dress it up.

Their sacrifices are devalued.

 

[AM9]

It does come across as a left-wing viewpoint to me, being as such I see in the context of anti military, no matter how you dress it up.

Their sacrifices are devalued.

a) Putin and Russia are not 'left wing'
b) It's got nothing to do with Railcards, unless you are talking about disabled ex-servicemen. Disabled ex-servicemen qualify for the Disabled Persons Railcard just like somebody who has inherited a permanent disability e.g. from an intoxicated car driver, - in the world of disabilities there should be no privilege of entitlement based on occupations.

 

[Vespa]

I don't like the "political posturing" that was presumably the reason for the forces' and veterans' discount cards - and see no logic in those cards.

Also

AlbertBeale said:
Lots of people serve their community (not sure why the specific concept of "country" is relevant), at risk to themselves. If public services are to be priced according to the perceived value to the community of the user, where will it end? If we are to go down that route, I'd prioritise people who take risks on our behalf without also being trained to kill their/our fellow human beings to order.

a) Putin and Russia are not 'left wing'
b) It's got nothing to do with Railcards, unless you are talking about disabled ex-servicemen. Disabled ex-servicemen qualify for the Disabled Persons Railcard just like somebody who has inherited a permanent disability e.g. from an intoxicated car driver, - in the world of disabilities there should be no privilege of entitlement based on occupations.

1) Putin and Russia are not left wing indeed, they inherited the structure left behind by the Soviets.

2) Yet Albert Beale said those who take risks should have railcard ergo based on occupations, in which case you may as well take away Priv passes which is based on occupation.

I have no issues with the emergency services having railcard themselves, in fact I support it.

My issue is that Albert Beale decided to introduce a political slant to Armed Forces Railcards and describes them a "Political Posturing" as well "trained to kill" which is actually an offensive term based on prejudices against the Armed Forces and lack of knowledge, service people are not sub humans with no empathy or feelings, they do and are restrained by the Military Code, they're are given a job and see things that no normal people should see, its not pretty at all, nothing like a war film, not even a fraction of it, you dont come back the same person that left to serve, not all disabilities are visible.

 

[AM9]

Also




1) Putin and Russia are not left wing indeed, they inherited the structure left behind by the Soviets.

2) Yet Albert Beale said those who take risks should have railcard ergo based on occupations, in which case you may as well take away Priv passes which is based on occupation.

I have no issues with the emergency services having railcard themselves, in fact I support it.

My issue is that Albert Beale decided to introduce a political slant to Armed Forces Railcards and describes them a "Political Posturing" as well "trained to kill" which is actually an offensive term based on prejudices against the Armed Forces and lack of knowledge, service people are not sub humans with no empathy or feelings, they do and are restrained by the Military Code, they're are given a job and see things that no normal people should see, its not pretty at all, nothing like a war film, not even a fraction of it, you dont come back the same person that left to serve, not all disabilities are visible.

1) They inherited the structure but not the political direction. Russia is a new and quite unstable capitalist country with an administration that pays lip service to democracy.

2) Yes, my point was that just being in the armed forces does not equate to risk. There are plenty of servicemen driving/flying/sailing desks, and the riskiest time they had was during PE in training. I have worked with quite a few of them.

'Political Posturing' doesn't necessary have a left-right dimension, that is especially true when you have a populist government which uses words and actions to acquire a desired moral position with its adherants. We have a populist (although quite unpopular) administration at the moment.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Mod note - split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-would-you-reform-the-railcard-system.218819

I don't like the "political posturing" that was presumably the reason for the forces' and veterans' discount cards - and see no logic in those cards.

Re the Forces Railcard, most soldiers, sailors and airmen and women live on bases (or indeed ships) away from their 'home' or their roots. The Railcard makes rail travel more affordable and attractive for them, and provides an incentive to travel by train rather than by car for journeys to visit 'home'.

The majority of civilian jobs don't involve this element of 'living on base' elsewhere in the country (or indeed in another country).

 

[Wallsendmag]

I thought the forces paid for travel hone from bases, in the old days MOD Warrants were plentiful when a warship docked on the Tyne

 

[Jurg]

Rationale and logic:

• Fixing the real problems faced by many veterans, PTSD, homelessness, etc, would cost a lot of money.
• Doing this costs a lot less.

 

[Haywain]

Rationale and logic:

• Fixing the real problems faced by many veterans, PTSD, homelessness, etc, would cost a lot of money.
• Doing this costs a lot less.

‘This’ is the HM Forces Railcard which is for those serving, not veterans who have their own railcard.

 

[Jurg]

‘This’ is the HM Forces Railcard which is for those serving, not veterans who have their own railcard.

Apologies, I was responding to the original post which talked about the veterans card.

 

[D6130]

Maybe slightly OT, but several countries which still have national service - such as France, Italy and Germany - give a discount of between 50 and 75 per cent on rail tickets to serving members of their armed forces on production of their military ID cards. Even more OT, British railway staff wishing to purchase 75% discount privilege tickets from SNCF ticket machines may do so by clicking on the "Militaire" option.

 

[Haywain]

Apologies, I was responding to the original post which talked about the veterans card.

No, my apologies. I hadn’t noticed that, just what the thread title says.

 

[LowLevel]

I thought the forces paid for travel hone from bases, in the old days MOD Warrants were plentiful when a warship docked on the Tyne

Kick out day from the Norfolk military bases has bought many an East Midlands guard a few beers on commission for long distance warrants out of Wymondham and Thetford! Not as good as it was but I still cleared over 500 quid on a Friday afternoon train not long before COVID knocking out tickets to Bristol, Newcastle, Manchester etc.

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe slightly OT, but several countries which still have national service - such as France, Italy and Germany - give a discount of between 50 and 75 per cent on rail tickets to serving members of their armed forces on production of their military ID cards. Even more OT, British railway staff wishing to purchase 75% discount privilege tickets from SNCF ticket machines may do so by clicking on the "Militaire" option.

Way off topic but as it happens none of the three European countries which you mention still have mandatory military service. Indeed, only 28 countries worldwide do in peacetime.

 

[Mak1981]

I thought the forces paid for travel hone from bases, in the old days MOD Warrants were plentiful when a warship docked on the Tyne

Used to be 2 return journeys per year I believe, not sure what it is nowadays

 

[Llanigraham]

It's seen as a reward for serving their country, some indeed have part of their body blown off, mental issues, given up their time ensure we can live freely and speak English, certainly a lot more than somebody qualifying for a 16-17, two together railcard. Network railcard or a priv pass.....

There is no political posturing only public support for it.

Is there? People I have spoken to have never heard of it, and when it has been explained they have asked why people like fire or ambulance or health workers don't get something as well.

 

[nedchester]

Is there? People I have spoken to have never heard of it, and when it has been explained they have asked why people like fire or ambulance or health workers don't get something as well.

Agreed. There are many folk who serve the public who are deserving of a railcard.

Veteran is also a rather broad term which doesn't mean someone working on the front line in a battlefield but someone who works in an office for one the services. In any case people working for the services have had a HM Forces Railcard for years so why a Railcard because of a job you once had? Maybe I should have one because I used to be a teacher and served the nation by educating it!!

To be honest we'd be better just having a Railcard for everyone rather than various groups.

 

[swt_passenger]

Agreed. There are many folk who serve the public who are deserving of a railcard.

Veteran is also a rather broad term which doesn't mean someone working on the front line in a battlefield but someone who works in an office for one the services. In any case people working for the services have had a HM Forces Railcard for years so why a Railcard because of a job you once had? Maybe I should have one because I used to be a teacher and served the nation by educating it!!

To be honest we'd be better just having a Railcard for everyone rather than various groups.

In current parlance a “veteran” is just any ex-serviceman, wherever they happen to work (or don’t work). The bit in bold isn’t correct. The general usage of veteran for an ex-serviceman or pensioner is a fairly recent change in government usage?

The HM Forces railcard for serving personnel has been around since at least the late 70s. It must have been introduced to encourage that particular group to use the railway, initially it was a token cost to the individual as it was administered and issued locally, but at some point it became priced similar to any other purchased railcard. Not every serviceman will necessarily have or regularly use one.

Travel warrants issued as part of conditions of service are a completely different thing and should not really be part of a railcard discussion.