Whittlesey - collision between freight train and tractor. (19/08/21)

[WesternBiker]

I used to sign the line. High time they sorted that crossing.

It has form? (Or, rather, the user has form?)

 

[GB]

Line not expected to be open until Monday morning at the earliest now.

Edit: make that Tuesday morning!

 

[berwicksfinest]

I used to sign the line. High time they sorted that crossing.

I do sign it, and yes it does

It has form? (Or, rather, the user has form?)

I have heard today it is the same person that has had past form

 

[peperami97]

Line not expected to be open until Monday morning at the earliest now.

Edit: make that Tuesday morning!

Apparently there is damage to over half a mile of track. Suggestion is that the tractor pulled out when the train was within a few hundred yards.

Damage to the loco is extensive. Maybe up to 3 months off line.

Figures I have heard suggest the bill could be over 100 million all in.

The driver of the loco has apparently done a impressive job of staying safe then getting the emergency call out immediately.

 

[Bald Rick]

Figures I have heard suggest the bill could be over 100 million all in.

No chance! Maybe a couple of million.

 

[dk1]

No chance! Maybe a couple of million.

Beat me too it. That initial quotation did make me chuckle.

 

[LAX54]

But the crossing user, the farmer in this case, is still required to ask for permission to cross, hence me hoping it is not the Signallers fault. If the farmer, never asked for permission, it is the farmers fault entirely. It should not matter how far down the line you can see.

From what I have heard, not Signaller, and there was reason given by a person on site, but as that is not in the public domain it cannot be repeated.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apparently there is damage to over half a mile of track. Suggestion is that the tractor pulled out when the train was within a few hundred yards.

Damage to the loco is extensive. Maybe up to 3 months off line.

Figures I have heard suggest the bill could be over 100 million all in.

The driver of the loco has apparently done a impressive job of staying safe then getting the emergency call out immediately.

Ridiculous.

 

[2HAP]

From what I have heard, not Signaller, and there was reason given by a person on site, but as that is not in the public domain it cannot be repeated.

Do I correctly understand that means the tractor driver had permission to cross? Will make for an interesting RAIB report if true.

 

[Steddenm]

Trains at Man Picc yesterday to London Euston had the subtitle "Change at London for Norwich". I'm guessing this is due to the accident.

 

[6Gman]

Without casting nasturtiums...
I work with a lot of farmers. They employ very casual labour to help with harvest. Some of these people are, how shall we say, not particularly bright.
The piles of straw suggests this trailer was moving bales off a field. Almost certainly casual labour and they're notorious for all sorts of stupidity, such as managing to tip the whole lot on its side going round corners, forgetting or not bothering to strap them down etc.

Round here they tend to be 17 years old and glued to their iphones.

And by glued I mean throughout the journey including road junctions, bends etc

 

[Clarence Yard]

The RAIB report on Frognal Farm is required reading for anyone who doesn’t understand what happened here.

 

[GB]

The RAIB report on Frognal Farm is required reading for anyone who doesn’t understand what happened here.

Given the investigation is in the early stage I am not sure how you can link the two incidents other than the fact they were both user worked crossings....of which there are many and of varying designs.

 

[Clarence Yard]

POGO’s and the signage. A false sense of security for the unwary, or the unwise.

 

[eastdyke]

POGO’s and the signage. A false sense of security for the unwary, or the unwise.

Unless something has happened at Kisby recently, it is/was not POGO. [Edit it is/was POGO - my error and apologies see following posts]

Agree about signage though, especially as the next UWC towards March (Middle Drove UWC) is R/G, but that is crossing is not POGO.

Some of the recommendations/actions arising from Frognal Farm definitely would be relevant.

[Edit - I stand corrected. Thanks @alxndr]

 

[43096]

POGO’s and the signage. A false sense of security for the unwary, or the unwise.

Please could you explain POGO?

 

[Tio Terry]

I wonder how relevant the Chivers Crossing collision in 1976 is? That ended up costing BR a whole lot of money because they had to replace a user worked crossing with a controlled one.

 

[alxndr]

Unless something has happened at Kisby recently, it is/was not POGO.

I believe it is POGO, backed up by the sign visible in the picture posted on this railcam news article (right below). The writing on the sign isn't fantastically clear, but compared to a photograph of a POGO sign included in the Frognal Farm RAIB report (left below) it does look as though the text is the same and instructs users to press a button to open both gates as is the function of a POGO.

[Image shows two signs side by side, the one on the left considerably clearer than the one on the right. The instructions on the sign on the left read:

Always telephone before crossing with vehicles or animals to find out if there is time to cross
Tell the crossing operator if the vehicle is large or slow moving

1. Push green button to open both gates
2. Cross quickly
3. Push green button to close both gates. Maximum penalty for not doing so £1000]

 

[eastdyke]

I believe it is POGO, backed up by the sign visible in the picture posted on this railcam news article (right below). The writing on the sign isn't fantastically clear, but compared to a photograph of a POGO sign included in the Frognal Farm RAIB report (left below) it does look as though the text is the same and instructs users to press a button to open both gates as is the function of a POGO.
View attachment 101456
[Image shows two signs side by side, the one on the left considerably clearer than the one on the right. The instructions on the sign on the left read:

Always telephone before crossing with vehicles or animals to find out if there is time to cross
Tell the crossing operator if the vehicle is large or slow moving

1. Push green button to open both gates
2. Cross quickly
3. Push green button to close both gates. Maximum penalty for not doing so £1000]

Thanks for that. The 'Push green button to open both gates' is clear enough.
My apologies, I am definitely in the wrong. Note to self - must get out more.

Will edit my post above.

Never been a fan, regardless of signage, some may find POGO counter-intuitive insofar as how can the gates open / be open if a train is due?
[yes I know how but I am not in charge of a vehicle on a UWC]

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest how many trains are actually stuck the wrong side of this incident? I know from reading another thread on here that East Midlands have got a number of 158s stuck but are there any others?

 

[2192]

Out of interest how many trains are actually stuck the wrong side of this incident? I know from reading another thread on here that East Midlands have got a number of 158s stuck but are there any others?

Which is the wrong side? EM will need trains both sides with buses in the middle.

 

[Ianno87]

Out of interest how many trains are actually stuck the wrong side of this incident? I know from reading another thread on here that East Midlands have got a number of 158s stuck but are there any others?

Through EM have several units overnight at Crown Point anyway (as do XC at Cambridge), so probably manageable for a few days.

 

[dk1]

During normal engineering works EM leave 3/4 units at Norwich as they do every night. These are operating in the usual paths where possible Norwich-Ely & return to maintain the timetable & connections on the Eastern part of the route.

 

[306024]

Which is the wrong side? EM will need trains both sides with buses in the middle.

Wrong side usually refers to the side isolated from the maintenance depot for the units.

Looking at RTT with the incident occurring at 09.10 East Mids had three trains on the Norwich side of the block at that time. So there are a minimum of three units on the so called wrong side.

 

[TheEdge]

Which is the wrong side? EM will need trains both sides with buses in the middle.

"Wrong side" is when trains are trapped away from their depot.

There are a few EMT 158s temporarily living at Norwich. Crown Point can do basic fuel point maintenance to the EMT 158s (and do) but if they have a serious issue then NCP can't help. There is also an EMT 170 technically trapped at NCP but it's been based there for training for a while now.

 

[Stathern Jc]

[Image shows two signs side by side, the one on the left considerably clearer than the one on the right. The instructions on the sign on the left read:

Always telephone before crossing with vehicles or animals to find out if there is time to cross
Tell the crossing operator if the vehicle is large or slow moving

1. Push green button to open both gates
2. Cross quickly
3. Push green button to close both gates. Maximum penalty for not doing so £1000]

I'm not familiar with the operation of modern farm crossings (I realise it's not possible to generalise). But, pushing as green button to operate the gates suggests either that they are power operated, or at least that releases a lock.
Could the fact that the gates then open give the unfamiliar / insufficiently cautious / those who neglect to contact the signaller, a false impression that it's safe to cross?
Another thought from one not aware of the details. Is there any practical way that the release of gates could be interlocked with signals or track circuits? I realise that this couldn't address excessively slow movements across a crossing. It's probably been thought of.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm not familiar with the operation of modern farm crossings (I realise it's not possible to generalise). But, pushing as green button to operate the gates suggests either that they are power operated, or at least that releases a lock.
Could the fact that the gates then open give the unfamiliar / insufficiently cautious / those who neglect to contact the signaller, a false impression that it's safe to cross?
Another thought from one not aware of the details. Is there any practical way that the release of gates could be interlocked with signals or track circuits? I realise that this couldn't address excessively slow movements across a crossing. It's probably been thought of.

If you need to phone the signal box for permission to cross, there must be communication between the crossing and the box. So why isn't the green button in the signal box?

 

[Grumpy Git]

If you need to phone the signal box for permission to cross, there must be communication between the crossing and the box. So why isn't the green button in the signal box?

That is a very good question.

 

[al78]

Has been mentioned in local media here. The Tractor driver mistook the signal (which showed Green for 4L02), as permission to cross.

Signal here refers to a railway signal that is there for train drivers? If so, I don't understand how anyone could think such a signal could be for them wishing to cross the line. A signal for a crossing will be positioned clearly and be facing the person wishing to cross, e.g. pelican crossings or traffic lights.

 

[alistairlees]

The signage isn’t great. I imagine some people reading this will just read the “1, 2, 3” points, and not the text above it (even though it’s on a red background). I am not making excuses for them. Just suggesting what might happen. As a result the risk is increased unnecessarily.