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GWR withdraw some 800's due to cracks (ORR Report now published)

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43096

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What the situation is for the trains that have been bought outright by the leasing companies, I don't know. I can only hope that the purchasers have some cast-iron guarantees that won't crack under stress...
I'd have more confidence in a leasing company's contract with Hitachi than I would with the DfT. Leasing companies - as commercial businesses - are far better at contracting than Government civil servants will ever be, or ever have been.
 
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D365

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How does this tie in with this post on another thread?
The ”Alternative Speed Display” is a device that is entirely separate from the normal ETCS displays. I’m not entirely sure on how/when this device is used, but as far as I know, it’s provided as redundancy for ETCS faults,

By the looks of it, not all ”ETCS onboard” installations provide an ASD.
 
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@Clarence Yard

Was much thought put into dedicated stabling at Penzance? If so what was considered for the Ponsandane site was it a few stabling sidings or more like Swansea with servicing also?
 

Clarence Yard

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Stabling at Penzance was looked at and it was a major issue for 9 cars because Long Rock couldn’t be extended at either end. Throughput on night shift is also an issue with the layout as is the ability to service and stable at the station.

In the DA2 negotiations the “normal” loadings on the Plymouth-Penzance section led to a hard choice. You couldn’t justify both the Cornish half hourly proposal and all year round 9 or 10 car operation. The political choice was the Cornish half hourly because you could always extend the 5 car units when the all year round loadings justified it. Go 9 car then would have lost the Cornish half hourly, probably for good.

One of the advantages of 5 car operation is that no money needed to be spent at the Penzance end - a major factor in getting the 802 sets approved was the relative ease with which they could be introduced - no major depot expenditure needed to be undertaken. High summer services could also be augmented with relative ease, that is why an extra unit was contracted for in the summer months, to free up the required units.

About three or four years ago I spotted that NR were going to sell off Ponsondane. I told GWR (the then deputy MD) to get it stopped as, if we wanted to go all 9 or 10 car to PZ in future, we needed it. He and his team have subsequently done a superb job of not only securing the site for the future but getting funding in place to put the sidings back in for stabling. Meanwhile GWR has looked at the working arrangements at Long Rock to get slightly more than the previous limit of 1 x 9 car on the depot at once but get it wrong and you stitch the depot up. However, you really do need Ponsondane to get all the 5 or 6 PZ starters and finishers to be 9 or 10 car.

The problem with any scheme for the long term is that you have to do it sequentially, always with an eye for the future because funding for everything at once just isn’t forthcoming. Although Reading depot doesn’t see IET units, at the design stage it was going to for LTV services. Turbos, not electrics, were going to be the other traction maintained there.

The late Stuart Baker, in one of his DfT value management exercises, mandated the Reading servicing shed design be reduced to two roads, 6 turbo cars long. The east sidings would only be built when the IET’s were being built. I went potty, rang up his then assistant and to cut a long story short, we got the depot we have today. It was built with electrical clearance and 8 car EMU operation in mind, not because the DfT wanted it - electrification wasn’t on the agenda then - but I felt it was most likely to happen and I didn’t want to see an overly expensive and disruptive extension happening later on - I have seen too much of that kind of thing before. Stuart wasn’t told that we had done this (deliberately) until much later but the millions we saved!

It’s hard going sometimes to get what you want but you can’t give up because you are in danger of waving goodbye to the future if you do.
 
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Stabling at Penzance was looked at and it was a major issue for 9 cars because Long Rock couldn’t be extended at either end. Throughput on night shift is also an issue with the layout as is the ability to service and stable at the station.

In the DA2 negotiations the “normal” loadings on the Plymouth-Penzance section led to a hard choice. You couldn’t justify both the Cornish half hourly proposal and all year round 9 or 10 car operation. The political choice was the Cornish half hourly because you could always extend the 5 car units when the all year round loadings justified it. Go 9 car then would have lost the Cornish half hourly, probably for good.

One of the advantages of 5 car operation is that no money needed to be spent at the Penzance end - a major factor in getting the 802 sets approved was the relative ease with which they could be introduced - no major depot expenditure needed to be undertaken. High summer services could also be augmented with relative ease, that is why an extra unit was contracted for in the summer months, to free up the required units.

About three or four years ago I spotted that NR were going to sell off Ponsondane. I told GWR (the then deputy MD) to get it stopped as, if we wanted to go all 9 or 10 car to PZ in future, we needed it. He and his team have subsequently done a superb job of not only securing the site for the future but getting funding in place to put the sidings back in for stabling. Meanwhile GWR has looked at the working arrangements at Long Rock to get slightly more than the previous limit of 1 x 9 car on the depot at once but get it wrong and you stitch the depot up. However, you really do need Ponsondane to get all the 5 or 6 PZ starters and finishers to be 9 or 10 car.

The problem with any scheme for the long term is that you have to do it sequentially, always with an eye for the future because funding for everything at once just isn’t forthcoming. Although Reading depot doesn’t see IET units, at the design stage it was going to for LTV services. Turbos, not electrics, were going to be the other traction maintained there.

The late Stuart Baker, in one of his DfT value management exercises, mandated the Reading servicing shed design be reduced to two roads, 6 turbo cars long. The east sidings would only be built when the IET’s were being built. I went potty, rang up his then assistant and to cut a long story short, we got the depot we have today. It was built with electrical clearance and 8 car EMU operation in mind, not because the DfT wanted it - electrification wasn’t on the agenda then - but I felt it was most likely to happen and I didn’t want to see an overly expensive and disruptive extension happening later on - I have seen too much of that kind of thing before. Stuart wasn’t told that we had done this (deliberately) until much later but the millions we saved!

It’s hard going sometimes to get what you want but you can’t give up because you are in danger of waving goodbye to the future if you do.
Wow, that's more answer than I was expecting.

I see what you say about Cornish Half Hourly vs 9-10 car operation full time, that large number of coaches couldn't be justified that far west so a compromise was found to allow for costs to be kept under control while also providing adequate capacity when needed, hence the 5 cars sets extended at certain times. A question I have always had is how close were the 802's to not being approved and what was the alternative option?

Selling of Ponsondane is a classic NR idea, it amazes me that Goodrington Sidings have survived this long as a last decade NR were mumbling about selling them off also but instead just cut back a few sidings, therefore removing a few points.

How many sidings are potentially being planned? This is of course a very long term thing so that maybe unknown/decided at this point. I am assuming that they would be accessible from either end, but primarily the depot end? Although direct access from Penzance station would be helpful.
 

Clarence Yard

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The original DfT “ask” for DA2 was keeping HST’s (with slam doors) until the 222 units became available from the then MML electrification project. A previous Stuart Baker add-on scheme to the main IEP project had already been junked by the DfT on grounds of cost.

When it became apparent that the 222 units would not be available, GWR proposed the 802 alternative as the counter to (expensively) keeping the HST sets. That then brought the Cornish half hourly into the discussion.

My original scheme for Ponsondane was for 3 or 4 sidings with access from the east, effectively by re-instating the connection that was originally there, to keep the costs within reason so as to give the scheme the best chance of actually being authorised. GWR then tried to spec. a much larger scheme with access from both the wast and east but that is a very costly job and so I believe they have reverted to something like my original suggestion for the initial stage.

Due to being involved in other work, I have rather lost touch with how the scheme is now progressing.
 

AlexNL

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Same reason NS walked away from the Fyra contract
NS were sort-of forced into this by their partner, the Belgian Railways.

After the Fyra V250 units were withdrawn from service and had their authorisation for entry into service revoked by the Belgian safety authorities, AnsaldoBreda were given 3 months to rectify the issues uncovered during the 2012-2013 winter.

Once those 3 months were up, the Belgian railways gave a press conference. The CEO on NMBS, Marc Descheemaecker, made it clear in no uncertain terms that the trains were rubbish and that NMBS would pull out. NS hadn't really been informed of this beforehand, they still wanted to continue with the V250 project.

The public statements by Descheemaecker forced their hand and a few days later, NS announced that they too would seek cancellation of the contract.
 

WatcherZero

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ORR have published the interim report, 46 pages.

lifting plates cracks firmly concluded to be due to combination of mechanical wear and seawater (chlorine) chemical reaction on the aluminium 7000 structure.

Yaw damper cracks no cause for fatigue cracks yet identified, the cracks are in the weld material not the structure, X-ray showed a lot of cavities in the welds and poor fusion of the plates but Hitachi are denying this is the cause.

Painting isnt sufficent to mitigate corrosive UK environment so potential long term fixes are ‘buttering’ adding a protective second weld on top or ’peening’ heating and then cooling the welds to pre stress Them.
 

Horizon22

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I find it interesting they've described "the specific corrosive environment for the alloy is considered to be endemic in the UK, arising from high humidity, rain and seawater exposure" [65]

Also that LNER had a lower tolerance of yaw dampener crack lengths (50mm) compared to Hitachi's safety case (200mm)
 
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WelshBluebird

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I find it interesting they've described "the specific corrosive environment for the alloy is considered to be endemic in the UK, arising from high humidity, rain and seawater exposure" [65]
It isn't like that would have been known about in advance. Oh!
Seriously if that is the real cause, and that trains built to be used in the UK were not manufactured with the UK's climate and weather in mind then someone's head needs to roll.
 

coppercapped

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ORR have published the interim report, 46 pages.

lifting plates cracks firmly concluded to be due to combination of mechanical wear and seawater (chlorine) chemical reaction on the aluminium 7000 structure.

Yaw damper cracks no cause for fatigue cracks yet identified, the cracks are in the weld material not the structure, X-ray showed a lot of cavities in the welds and poor fusion of the plates but Hitachi are denying this is the cause.

Painting isnt sufficent to mitigate corrosive UK environment so potential long term fixes are ‘buttering’ adding a protective second weld on top or ’peening’ heating and then cooling the welds to pre stress Them.
Thank you for posting the link to the ORR report.

Having read it my conclusions are:

1. it's too verbose, it could have been half the length for the information it holds

and

2. it's trying to justify the ORR's continuing existence.
 

Horizon22

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Thank you for posting the link to the ORR report.

Having read it my conclusions are:

1. it's too verbose, it could have been half the length for the information it holds

and

2. it's trying to justify the ORR's continuing existence.

Whilst I might agree with you on point 1 (there's a lot of repetition), it's rather important there's an oversight role separate from the DfT. How this will all be structured once GBR kicks in is another matter but I'm sure there will be elements of their current remit included in some body/organisation.
 
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LOL The Irony

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Class 385 and Class 395 trains were not withdrawn from service on 8 May 2021, but the subsequent investigation and analysis identified both the potential and actual incidences of related failures on Class 385 and 395 rolling stock.
Damn, so ALL Hitachi trains are affected. And here we were thinking the 395s were clean.
It isn't like that would have been known about in advance. Oh!
Seriously if that is the real cause, and that trains built to be used in the UK were not manufactured with the UK's climate and weather in mind then someone's head needs to roll.
The worst part about this is Hitachi are from a country that has an almost mirror image climate to ours, so why this wasn't taken into account is beyond me.
 

Stathern Jc

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I find it difficult to think that the UK is unique in having humidity, rain, and railways close to the sea.
Would be interesting to know what design mods are made to versions in the pipeline as well as eventual remedial work on existing stock.
 

fgwrich

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Damn, so ALL Hitachi trains are affected. And here we were thinking the 395s were clean.

The worst part about this is Hitachi are from a country that has an almost mirror image climate to ours, so why this wasn't taken into account is beyond me.
That's interesting to hear (as the 395 issue seemed to lie rather low under the radar) that they are affected too. So that now means that all of Hitachi's UK Fleets are affected inn some way or other. I cant see their order books being particularly full over the next few years!

It's also somewhat surprising to hear that the corrosion is being put in part down to the humidity and effects of Salt Water. After all, I thought they were supposed to be "dawlish proof". The more we hear, the more the fabled IET program seems to be unravelling...
 

dgl

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That's interesting to hear (as the 395 issue seemed to lie rather low under the radar) that they are affected too. So that now means that all of Hitachi's UK Fleets are affected inn some way or other. I cant see their order books being particularly full over the next few years!

It's also somewhat surprising to hear that the corrosion is being put in part down to the humidity and effects of Salt Water. After all, I thought they were supposed to be "dawlish proof". The more we hear, the more the fabled IET program seems to be unravelling...
Dawlish "Resistant" I think was more the term used, basically I'm guessing that so long as they were better than the Voyagers in terms of conking out in stormy weather then that would have been seen as alright by Hitachi and the Government, and that corrosion of the bodyshells was not even thought about.

I wonder how other fleets down there fair corrosion wise (and in other wave battered areas).
 
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fgwrich

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Dawlish "Resistant" I think was more the term used, basically I'm guessing that so long as they were better than the Voyagers in terms of conking out in stormy weather then that would have been seen as alright by Hitachi and the Government and that corrosion of the bodyshells was not even thought about.

I wonder how other fleets down there fair corrosion wise (and in other wave battered areas).
Mind you, they weren't particularly good with that either. Like the Voyagers, Putting the resistors on the roof may be good for rapid air cooling, but they too don't like salt water (or the effects of it!) and also caused havoc with the electronics. Though a splash from a dawlish wave is less than regular exposure to the ever changing weather conditions of the UK.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Dawlish "Resistant" I think was more the term used, basically I'm guessing that so long as they were better than the Voyagers in terms of conking out in stormy weather then that would have been seen as alright by Hitachi and the Government, and that corrosion of the bodyshells was not even thought about.
As far as I can remember, the term "Dawlish resistant" relates only to the equipment mounted on the roof and doesn't relate to anything to do with the actual structure of the trains?
 

WatcherZero

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It is a factor in tram design as well that we use a lot of grit in this country to tackle frost and so trams have to factor in they are exposed to more salt than they are in other countries. The blackpool ones in particular have a much higher proportion of stainless steel substituted into their design than the same model does in other countries and non standard components had to be ordered for construction.

I have heard that historically the railway companies did account for this as it had a noticeable effect on lines with a lot of level crossings.
 

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As far as I can remember, the term "Dawlish resistant" relates only to the equipment mounted on the roof and doesn't relate to anything to do with the actual structure of the trains?
True, though I would have thought that a train considered to be "Dawlish Resistant / Proof" would have been thoroughly resistant across it's entire body than just encompassing part of the roof. More so considering the test rigs where the 'salt water' was sprayed at then encompassed the entire body of the coach. I mean, if I bought a car with a sunroof, I'd hope that the entire car had been weatherproofed accordingly than just the roof.
 
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irish_rail

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All this makes me think a train with a power car at either end, both electric and diesel capable would have been far more effective than what we have with 80x. If only HST2 had come to fruition.
 

northernbelle

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Damn, so ALL Hitachi trains are affected. And here we were thinking the 395s were clean.

The worst part about this is Hitachi are from a country that has an almost mirror image climate to ours, so why this wasn't taken into account is beyond me.
If I read the report right, it's a bit more of an intricate problem than 'the trains are corroding because of the weather'. It appears to be the combination of the usual corrosive elements trains are exposed to coupled with specific stresses exerted on the material, which is quite different to a material simply rotting out.

The bolster assembly appears to have undergone a process to remove stress imposed on it, but the lifting plate has not - one wonders if part of the remedial work will be to find a way of de-stressing the lifting plate too.

History repeats itself....BR was suffering delayed and cancelled HST operated services on the ECML over 10 years after their introduction due to design faults which weren't cured until a re-engineering exercise 15 years after that! HST Intercity 125 Reliability Problems in the 1980s
 

Nym

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Mind you, they weren't particularly good with that either. Like the Voyagers, Putting the resistors on the roof may be good for rapid air cooling, but they too don't like salt water (or the effects of it!) and also caused havoc with the electronics. Though a splash from a dawlish wave is less than regular exposure to the ever changing weather conditions of the UK.
Wasn't really an issue with the resistors for the most part. There were "issues" with the wiring.
 

43096

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History repeats itself....BR was suffering delayed and cancelled HST operated services on the ECML over 10 years after their introduction due to design faults which weren't cured until a re-engineering exercise 15 years after that! HST Intercity 125 Reliability Problems in the 1980s
That’s not true. The exhaust manifold problems were cured by a change of material (aluminium to cast iron), but not helped by a self inflicted wound by BR when they changed the antifreeze in the cooling system which caused far more damage than the problem it was trying to solve. The only real weak point was the cooler groups, which were on the limit of performance, but improved cleaning largely mitigated that.
 

Sm5

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Who would have thought that 70 years since steam locos rusted in Barry, that its only just been discovered that salt water corrodes metal.

Still, as a proportion of daily use, how much time do these well painted units come into contact with the North Sea, Severn Estuary of the English Channel ?

143’s / 150’s seemed to be ok with Dawlish daily for decades.. odd exception applies.
 

XAM2175

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True, though I would have thought that a train considered to be "Dawlish Resistant / Proof" would have been thoroughly resistant across it's entire body than just encompassing part of the roof. More so considering the test rigs where the 'salt water' was sprayed at then encompassed the entire body of the coach. I mean, if I bought a car with a sunroof, I'd hope that the entire car had been weatherproofed accordingly than just the roof.
You're talking about waterproofing the carriage, and testing the waterproofing of the carriage. Resistance to stress corrosion cracking is a materials question, not construction, and cannot be tested for in the same way.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Agility will have decided how many trains were required to meet the specification. It will be an internal decision by them as to whether the loss of income from not being able to supply enough trains outweighs the cost of building more units.
Also, where would they build these new units? I think their existing production lines are busy producing 80x variants for other UK franchises. Do they delay those to rush out some spares for GWR and presumably then have to pay a penalty for late delivery? Assuming this issue is eventually fixed, what would they now do with the extra units?

All this makes me think a train with a power car at either end, both electric and diesel capable would have been far more effective than what we have with 80x. If only HST2 had come to fruition.
While Agility is paid to supply a number of daily diagrams, the overall fleet sizes (and therefore reliability targets) was agreed in the initial DfT contracts.
So Hitachi is not obliged to build additional units if reliability is below spec, but they do suffer financial consequences if they do not supply sufficient diagrams.

There's no saying an HST2 contract wouldn't have been won by Hitachi and built in Kasado/Newton Aycliffe/Pistoia with the same materials as 80x.

Also these "DfT/Treasury" people dictating unsatisfactory solutions to real railway people won't be going away.
They, or a faction like them, will be part of GBR, or with power over their procurement.
Nobody gets a free hand with taxpayers money.
 

Wolfie

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While Agility is paid to supply a number of daily diagrams, the overall fleet sizes (and therefore reliability targets) was agreed in the initial DfT contracts.
So Hitachi is not obliged to build additional units if reliability is below spec, but they do suffer financial consequences if they do not supply sufficient diagrams.

There's no saying an HST2 contract wouldn't have been won by Hitachi and built in Kasado/Newton Aycliffe/Pistoia with the same materials as 80x.

Also these "DfT/Treasury" people dictating unsatisfactory solutions to real railway people won't be going away.
They, or a faction like them, will be part of GBR, or with power over their procurement.
Nobody gets a free hand with taxpayers money.
Re your last para, the nearest thing to that is ministerial priorities but even then HMT are all over them.
 
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