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Southeastern Europe trip

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Watershed

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I'd appreciate some advice for a trip I'm thinking of making to southeastern Europe this October/November. I like the idea of flying there and then returning by train all the way (or vice versa). I'm sure there are a lot of very scenic routes along the way, but to be honest, I don't know a lot about the railways of this part of Europe.

I intend to start in southern Italy for a few days to visit family, so I might take the ferry from Bari to Patras and start my rail journey there (I understand that the line between Patras and Kiato has been recently reopened?).

What would then be the best route back to the UK be from Athens? I see that the Man in Seat 61 recommends via Belgrade or Sofia but as far as I can tell, there is no route out of Greece that avoids bustitution at this time of year?

I'm looking to do the whole trip over 10 days or thereabouts - appreciate that doesn't leave a massive amount of time to explore the cities en route but such are the constraints of work!

Any comments on an itinerary something like this:

Previous week:
Fly to southern Italy

Monday:
Ferry Bari-Patras departs 19:30

Tuesday:
Ferry Bari-Patras arrives 13:00
Train Patras-Athens (changing at Kiato) depart 14:25 arrive 17:17
Stay in Athens

Wednesday:
Train Athens-Thessaloniki depart 12:22 arrive 16:45
Stay in Thessaloniki

Thursday:
Train Thessaloniki-Strymonas - here I can only find 2 trains a day, is that really it? depart 05:50 arrive 08:10
Bus Strymonas-Kulata - I can't seem to find details of anything other than coach services for this? Is there some kind of replacement bus here, as the timings seem to match up?
Train Kulata-Sofia - based on Vagonweb.cz this seems to be booked for haulage by a very unusual shunting type loco - depart 09:45 arrive 14:40
Stay in Sofia

Friday:
Train Sofia-Bucharest (changing at Gorna Oryahovitsa and Ruse) depart 07:20 arrive 17:00
Sleeper Bucharest-Budapest depart 17:45

Saturday:
Sleeper Bucharest-Budapest arrive 08:50
Train Budapest-Frankfurt (changing at Munich) depart 09:55 arrive 21:04
Stay in Frankfurt

Sunday:
Train Frankfurt-Brussels depart 10:27 arrive 13:26
Eurostar Brussels-London depart 16:35 arrive 17:20

I think the itinerary is a bit more flexible from Bucharest/Budapest onwards, up until that point it looks like the frequency of trains largely dictates the structure?

Any suggestions welcomed.

I'm eligible for FIP, so any information on applicable fares/supplements would also be appreciated.
 
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87015

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Presuming by unusual shunting loco you mean a BDZ 61, that’s now unlikely. Most passenger work has ceased, certainly to Sofia, since the Vegtrons arrived.

The Ruse-Bucharest is a CFR desiro, rather you than me!
 

Watershed

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Presuming by unusual shunting loco you mean a BDZ 61, that’s now unlikely. Most passenger work has ceased, certainly to Sofia, since the Vegtrons arrived.

The Ruse-Bucharest is a CFR desiro, rather you than me!
Ah ok, that's a shame. Vagonweb must be out of date in that case. Looks like most of the rest of the trains are hauled, but with run of the mill locos for the electric bits and modern(ish) units for the diesel bits.

Are there any trains left that are hauled by interesting locos in that part of the world?
 

87015

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Ah ok, that's a shame. Vagonweb must be out of date in that case. Looks like most of the rest of the trains are hauled, but with run of the mill locos for the electric bits and modern(ish) units for the diesel bits.

Are there any trains left that are hauled by interesting locos in that part of the world?
If you’ll excuse the plug for Bulgaria... exact details are a bit out of date but the general trains still work

BDZ 55 (Faur) https://87015aewn.wordpress.com/bg-gen/bdz-class-55/

BDZ 07 (Ludmilla)
 

30907

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No experience, but just a thought: Bar-Beograd is supposed to be very scenic. Is there a route which would incorporate that, starting from Bari?
 

306024

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No experience, but just a thought: Bar-Beograd is supposed to be very scenic. Is there a route which would incorporate that, starting from Bari?

A few years ago now I caught a ferry from Bari to Bar, stayed overnight in Bar then train to Belgrade.

The ferry was delayed awaiting the police with a deportee, and the journey to Belgrade was shared with a Serb who was interested in football, or more precisely football related violence.

But don’t let that put you off, the train journey, although long, is worth doing for the scenery.
 

Watershed

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If you’ll excuse the plug for Bulgaria... exact details are a bit out of date but the general trains still work

BDZ 55 (Faur) https://87015aewn.wordpress.com/bg-gen/bdz-class-55/

BDZ 07 (Ludmilla)
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see if I can integrate some of those into the journey.

No experience, but just a thought: Bar-Beograd is supposed to be very scenic. Is there a route which would incorporate that, starting from Bari?
I had actually considered that option, with the ferry across from Bari. Avoids the bustitution out of Greece, albeit I understand that Serbia still has certain restrictions on foreign tourists, in particular a requirement to take a PCR test before entering.
 

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I'm in Southern Italy in October in Sicily and Calabria, out of interest which airport are you flying into originally? And how did you find it getting decent flights?

I'm going to be hitting the rails too, but on Sicily and the Western side of the boot, as I've always wanted to the Train Ferry across the Straits of Messina. Interesting plan to head to Greece and head home that way, I'll be interested to hear how you get on!
 

Watershed

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I'm in Southern Italy in October in Sicily and Calabria, out of interest which airport are you flying into originally? And how did you find it getting decent flights?

I'm going to be hitting the rails too, but on Sicily and the Western side of the boot, as I've always wanted to the Train Ferry across the Straits of Messina. Interesting plan to head to Greece and head home that way, I'll be interested to hear how you get on!
I'll probably be flying into Bari, decent choice of flights to there actually.

Yes, that train ferry is on my bucket list as well.
 

Watershed

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Well, as of the time of writing I'm on a Railjet from Budapest to Munchen with a decent internet signal(!), so I've got a bit of time to write an abbreviated trip report and some replies.

Presuming by unusual shunting loco you mean a BDZ 61, that’s now unlikely. Most passenger work has ceased, certainly to Sofia, since the Vegtrons arrived.
I am pleased to report that not only was the Kulata-Sofia service hauled by a BDZ 61, but I also saw several others on other workings along the way!

The Ruse-Bucharest is a CFR desiro, rather you than me!
Obviously not a patch on loco hauled stock, but in principle they're half decent trains. Only problem is the shocking condition of them - the one I took had what appeared to be bullet holes in several windows, along with plentiful graffiti and a bog that I'd rather never see again...

The service was also painfully slow, taking nearly 3 hours for a journey that's just 43 miles as the crow flies! Anyway, if I do the journey again I might try the route via Vidin, though I'm not sure that would be much better.

Anyway, onto the trip report.

Monday:
Ferry [Superfast Ferries: Superfast I] Bari-Patras departs 19:30


The room was reasonably comfortable, the onboard restaurant was typically expensive and middling, the crossing was mostly smooth... nothing much to see here. It was quite expensive even with an FIP discount (€150 odd for an outside cabin - next time I'd save the money and go for an inside berth or simply fly!).

I was quite tight on time in the end, because I hadn't realised how far the port is from the town centre. The recommended check-in time is 3 hours before departure; you definitely don't need to allow that much time, but the 1 hour I'd allowed ended up only just being enough.

PXL_20211101_174130733.jpg

Tuesday:
Ferry [Superfast Ferries: Superfast I] Bari-Patras arrives 13:00
Train Patras-Kiato [TrainOSE: Λ15E - NB coach link] depart 14:25 arrive 15:50
Train Kiato-Athens [TrainOSE: 1323] arrive 15:59 arrive 17:17
Stay in Athens


PXL_20211102_082643998.jpg

The ferry arrived more or less on time, after an intermediate call at Igoumenitsa and a moderately scenic journey along the western Greek coastline. However, Patras port was very pedestrian unfriendly and it was unclear which way the exit was (turn left and walk along the boundary fence). I couldn't find the bus that the Man in Seat 61's guide referred to, and didn't want to pay for a taxi, so I walked to Patras main station, which took about 40 mins. I knew I'd just miss one of the hourly local trains, but I managed to catch a glimpse of it at a level crossing:

PXL_20211102_113750953.jpg

Unfortunately all of TrainOSE's fleet seemed to suffer from varying degrees of grafitti.

I arrived at Patras station and was promptly issued a reservation (with a numbered seat!) for the coach link to Kiato. I can confirm they accepted FIP on this.

There were good views to be had, with the motorway having many tunnels and bridges and mainly following the course of the yet-to-be-finished railway until Aigio. Google Maps suggested the coach would call at Aigio's former station but it sailed through the town non-stop (otherwise I would have walked to the new station, which is incidentally outside the town, and taken the train from there).

PXL_20211102_130632453.jpg

The train from Kiato to Athens was fairly empty to begin with but filled up until became standing room only by Athens. The unit was one of TrainOSE's bog-standard "tagged" EMUs. Strangely, the line is double track and continuously welded throughout - until just before Athens Larissa (main station), where it becomes single track and jointed!

The line was scenic in parts - the best view was definitely to be had on the left hand side but unfortunately I chose the right!

I also did a bit of travelling around Athens that night and the following day, but full details will have to be for another trip report.

Wednesday:
Train Athens-Thessaloniki [TrainOSE: IC 54] depart 12:22 arrive 16:45
Stay in Thessaloniki


I saw the Acropolis from Areopagus Hill in the morning:

PXL_20211103_090455101.jpg

There was a great view of the city; it reminded me of Arthur's seat in Edinburgh! Unfortunately the queues were too long to visit the Acropolis.

Athens Larissa is rather run-down and half-finished - you cross several disused platforms before reaching the 4 platforms that are in use. The IC train was duly loco hauled, as booked:

PXL_20211103_101532213.jpg

The coaches were comfortable enough but nothing to write home about. There was also a restaurant car with reasonably priced refreshments.

The view was not as scenic as I had expected; the "new" line uses a lot more tunnels and boring concrete viaducts. It was notable how the line was double track throughout - and yet I don't think we passed another train until after Larissa (the terminus for local services from Thessaloniki). Clearly somewhat of an underutilised line!

PXL_20211103_122749671_2.jpg

I visited the old town of Thessaloniki that evening, but I'm afraid it didn't seem as special as the descriptions had made out.

Thursday:
Train Thessaloniki-Strymonas [TrainOSE: 600A] depart 05:50 arrive 08:10
Taxi Strymonas-Kulata
Train Kulata-Sofia [BDŽ: RE 50102] depart 09:45 arrive 14:40
Stay in Sofia


The train from Thessaloniki was very lightly loaded; it ran very slowly along some rather dodgy looking/sounding track along the way. Unfortunately it was cloudy so the mountains were obscured. We didn't pass any other trains; in fact the line only sees 2 passenger trains a day at the moment.

Here was the unit at Strymonas, together with some sort of engineer's train!

PXL_20211104_061205661.jpg

See this thread for more information on the journey from Strymonas to Kulata.

Overall, I couldn't say that the journey across Greece was particularly rateable. However the journey from Kulata onwards was a different story!

The train from Kulata to Sofia was absolutely brilliant. Loco hauled compartment stock with opening windows, a single track electrified line with jointed track winding its way along valleys... There was a stop at General Todorov to allow the loco to be detached and swapped with the loco off the connecting single-coach Petrich train!

PXL_20211104_080805460.jpg

There were many scenic views to be had along the way:

PXL_20211104_091842683.jpg

Unfortunately I've reached the limit of 10 attachments so I'll have to put the rest in a separate post!
 

Watershed

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And countless tiny wayside halts, some with literally no more than a waiting shelter.

PXL_20211104_110438356.jpg

There were also a variety of other loco hauled services along this line, although there's only train a day in each direction that goes the entire length.

PXL_20211104_123634939.jpg

I travelled around Sofia a little later that day, but again, wouldn't say there was anything particularly worth writing home about.

Friday:
Train Sofia-Ruse [BDŽ: RE 2601] depart 07:20 arrive 13:22
Train Ruse-Bucharest [CFR: INT 1094] depart 14:15 arrive 17:00
Sleeper train "Ister" Bucharest-Budapest [CFR: NT 472] depart 17:45


Suddenly things were speeding up a notch!

International Rail (RSTL's affiliated FIP booking agents) suggested that the train to Ruse would involve a change at Gorna Oryahovitsa, however it turned out that this was merely the point at which the Ruse portion detached from the Varna train.

Again, some delightful compartment stock and a very scenic journey:

PXL_20211105_061720110.jpg

There was also a surprise sighting of an 87 and a Taurus!

PXL_20211105_104606285.jpg

One of the other passengers in the compartment spoke good English, and invited me to join him in some "external observation". The guard was, of course, entirely non-plussed by this :lol:

Upon arrival at Ruse, the contrast could hardly be starker!

PXL_20211105_115426863.jpg

As discussed above, the DMU was very slow and indeed there were only 4 of us (plus 2 massive dogs!) on the train as far as Videle. The view across the Danube was, by far, the most interesting part of the journey:

PXL_20211105_123129123.MP_exported_1131.jpg

Bulgarian officials checked passports before departure at Ruse, and Romanian officials came through at Giurgiu Nord. They seem to have a somewhat unnerving habit of walking off with your passport for a few minutes!

Unfortunately I can't speak much of Bucharest as I was only there very briefly! The sleeper was very comfortable and I managed to get a surprising amount of sleep on it - though having sole use of a compartment certainly helped with that :lol:. Unfortunately no FIP berths were available when I booked so it was public rate, a rather expensive (by Eastern European standards) £140 or so.

The sleeper was hauled by no fewer than 4 different locos! There is an electrified route throughout, however the sleeper takes the unelectrified route via Sibiu (hence the diesel haulage from Braşov to Simeria). This certainly looks to be very scenic on the map, however it was dark for almost the entirety of the journey so it's difficult to say. Certainly lots of jointed track and low speeds - a line I think might be worth another trip during daylight hours.

Notably, there didn't seem to be any sort of catering onboard, so I'd highly recommend stocking up on supplies before you set off! Also there was a shower in the coach, however it only had cold water and there were no towels, so I gave that a miss. Unfortunately I didn't get any pictures of the first 3 locos, however here's the train upon arrival at Budapest.

PXL_20211106_075407435 (1).jpg

Budapest Keleti is a very impressive station - outside it looks like like a bigger version of Norwich Thorpe, inside it's like St Pancras:

PXL_20211106_081235908 (1).jpg

The entrance hall to the left is very grand and well restored. Overall, a station not to be missed.

Saturday:
Sleeper train "Ister" Bucharest-Budapest [CFR: NT 472] arrive 08:50
Train Budapest-Munich [ÖBB: EC 62] depart 09:40 arrive 16:32
Train Munich-Frankfurt [DB: ICE 528] depart 16:45 arrive 20:04
Stay in Frankfurt


As the sleeper arrived on time (in fact, all trains have done so far - plus or minus a few minutes), I managed to catch an earlier than expected connection onto the 09:40 Railjet to München. This necessitated a quick trip to the ticket office, who sold a new seat reservation for ~£2.50 per train. Unfortunately OBB charge a supplement of €10 for each 'box' on an FIP coupon, if you use it on any IC/ICE/EC/RJ service - this is on top of the mandatory reservations! Not the most customer friendly policy if you ask me...

The journey so far has been reasonably scenic, and although it's not the compartment stock with opening windows of Eastern Europe, the Railjets are still a very comfortable way to travel, with good legroom, and a very smooth and quiet ride. This particular train was coupled up to another Railjet from Vienna to Salzburg, which seemed to cause some confusion!

PXL_20211106_141924488.jpg

But most of all, this feels like the first part of the journey that's actually reminiscent of home... together with the incessant Covid related announcements! Talking of masks, they were ubiquitously worn in Greece and on the Railjet, but hardly anyone seemed to wear one in Bulgaria or Romania, and very few people on the station in Budapest. Masks have recently become compulsory again in Hungary unfortunately.

I'll follow up with another update once I make it home.
 
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the sniper

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Nice report.

The train from Kiato to Athens was fairly empty to begin with but filled up until became standing room only by Athens. The unit was one of TrainOSE's bog-standard "tagged" EMUs. Strangely, the line is double track and continuously welded throughout - until just before Athens Larissa (main station), where it becomes single track and jointed!

Aren't there plans to bury/tunnel this section? I'm not sure if that's a short or long term project, but a lot of Greek projects seem unlikely/incomprehensible, but seem to get done somehow, seemingly under the radar!
 

Watershed

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Nice report.



Aren't there plans to bury/tunnel this section? I'm not sure if that's a short or long term project, but a lot of Greek projects seem unlikely/incomprehensible, but seem to get done somehow, seemingly under the radar!
There was certainly evidence of construction work happening, lots of heavy machinery at work. So I suspect it's certainly going to become double track (either on the surface or below ground) eventually.

But at the moment it's somewhat of a stark dichotomy, with a ~20km/h speed limit. Especially when compared to the massively overengineered junction and yard at SKA/Acharnes to the north of the city!
 

the sniper

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There was certainly evidence of construction work happening, lots of heavy machinery at work. So I suspect it's certainly going to become double track (either on the surface or below ground) eventually.

But at the moment it's somewhat of a stark dichotomy, with a ~20km/h speed limit. Especially when compared to the massively overengineered junction and yard at SKA/Acharnes to the north of the city!

Overengineering seems to very much be their thing! God knows how they pay for it, probably better not to ask...
 

Watershed

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Overengineering seems to very much be their thing! God knows how they pay for it, probably better not to ask...
Yes, it's just such a shame how things seem to be shut well before they're replaced - c.f. the metre gauge network to Patras (well, Pio/Rio). The earthworks and tunnels from Aigio to Patras are well progressed, there's just no track...

Great news about 61s being out and about, hope it sticks!
Yes, I think another visit is definitely in order. Unfortunately Vagonweb suggests that this line (towards Kulata) is really the only one patronised by the 61s, but it's sufficiently scenic that I really mind seeing it again!
 

the sniper

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Yes, it's just such a shame how things seem to be shut well before they're replaced - c.f. the metre gauge network to Patras (well, Pio/Rio). The earthworks and tunnels from Aigio to Patras are well progressed, there's just no track...

The downfall of the whole metre gauge network was a bit of a tragedy. Large (economically incomprehensible) investment followed by almost complete collapse. Hopefully we don't see the same thing on the standard gauge network...

Does anyone know what the medium term plans are for the Patras end of the standard gauge line, when it gets near there? I know the ambitious version is for the line to tunnel under Patras, but presumably it'll terminate outside for a good while (Pio/Rio?). Will it connect with the Metre gauge commuter service or will that be killed off at the same time?
 

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A wonderful report which made very enjoyable reading. A couple of minor corrections, if you don't mind me saying:

The view across the Rhine was, by far, the most interesting part of the journey:
I think that is the Danube.

Budapest Nord is a very impressive station - outside it looks like like a bigger version of Norwich Thorpe, inside it's like St Pancras:
That's Budapest Keleti station, which translates into English as "Budapest East" (Possible confusion with Buchuresti Nord?) As you say though it is a very impressive station and - like St Pancras - most of the platforms nowadays are outside of the main train shed.

Thanks for taking the time to write-up your trip. Hopefully it will inspire others to make similar journeys.
 

Watershed

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I think that is the Danube.
That's Budapest Keleti station, which translates into English as "Budapest East" (Possible confusion with Buchuresti Nord?) As you say though it is a very impressive station and - like St Pancras - most of the platforms nowadays are outside of the main train shed.
Quite right on both counts - that's what 36 hours of continuous travelling does to your memory! :lol:

Certainly an enjoyable trip but now that I have seen a bit more of these countries' networks I might take it a bit slower next time!
 

Watershed

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There was a lineup of ICEs in Munich as I changed trains yesterday:

PXL_20211106_153352893.jpg

The catering on ICEs is pricey (as you'd expect) but there is a decent offering and a buffet car seating area. In fact it was rather too well patronised to sit down! Every time I travel on an ICE I'm struck by the quality of the interior... sliding glass doors, comfortable seats with good legroom and even some compartments. My only gripe is that the padded headrest is too low and can't be raised easily. First world problems!

Sunday:
Train Frankfurt-Cologne [DB:
ICE 1020] depart 09:37 arrive 12:05
Train Cologne-Brussels [Thalys: THA 9448] depart 12:42 arrive 14:35
Train Brussels-London [Eurostar: ES 9145] depart 15:52 arrive 17:00


I'd deliberately planned to take the scenic "classic" route from Frankfurt to Cologne via the Left Rhine Railway. Unfortunately the weather was grey and overcast, but there were still some good views to be had. There must be some form of 'single line working' to prevent barges colliding at this sharp blind bend in the river!

PXL_20211107_094840614.jpg

I was on a ICE1, forming a named train (Kieler Bucht) from Nuremburg to Kiel. It was taking a rather unusual and circuitous route - I wonder what the history of this service is!

I'd also chosen to take Thalys from Cologne to Brussels (rather than the direct DB services), just to give them a try.

PXL_20211107_113013120.jpg

Thalys use TGV-based trains, and I have to say I'm just not a fan of their interior. The excessive use of fabrics, low ceilings and subdued lighting make it seem like a rather pretentious attempt at making a living room on wheels :lol: .

Due to the thick seats, legroom isn't great, and it's certainly not helped by the annoying footrest. Honestly, I'd like to find someone who can find a comfortable sitting position with one of those... put it up and it's in the way of your shin, put it down and you can't stretch your legs properly!

PXL_20211107_113516086.jpg

They also only offer FIP global fares - I paid €18, which is quite a bit more than the cost of a seat reservation! Overall, not a good impression - I doubt I'll use them again. The journey wasn't particularly scenic, just a mixture of fast HSL running and trundling behind freight and local services on the "classic" lines.

There was a Covid passport inspection upon arrival at Brussels; this seemed rather superfluous (not to mention predatory) given that I'd already travelled! Sadly that seems to be the way that things are heading in much of the rest of the world :(

The queues to check-in to the Eurostar were modest today, but the contrast between simply walking onto the Thalys train and having to go through boarding gates (which included checks of the PLF), security and passport control (twice) to get onto the Eurostar couldn't be starker. It just seems like so much wasted potential; you always need to allow a lot of extra time to go through all of these checks.

PXL_20211107_143448379.jpg

Unfortunately my allocated seat (I couldn't change it online) was at a table with no view, due to the poor window alignment on the e320s. I also find the tables have very poor legroom when you've got a stranger sitting opposite you!

I waited until after Lille Europe to move to an adjacent free aisle seat (though these have the same annoying footrest positioning as the Thalys trains). Even though it had come from Amsterdam, the train ended up having numerous empty seats.

With the train arriving on time into the familiar grandieur of St Pancras, after an uneventful but nevertheless impressive high speed run, that marks the end of an exciting adventure!

PXL_20211107_170449705.jpg

Conclusion

Overall, I enjoyed the trip greatly; there were numerous places I now know are worth another trip. I certainly shan't bother taking Thalys or some of the other routes again, but that's something you can only find out by trying it first!
 
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That was clearly a monster of a trip! Wow!

I definitely have a craving for trying some of those trains out, Budapest is on my list to return to following my visit in 2019. I'd strongly recommend a couple of days there if you get the chance.

The faffing around on the Eurostar checks does sound a bit irritating, but it is how it's got to be done for now. If it means we can all start using Eurostar to visit Europe again, then it's got to be worth the effort
 

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I definitely have a craving for trying some of those trains out, Budapest is on my list to return to following my visit in 2019. I'd strongly recommend a couple of days there if you get the chance.
As it happens, I'm going there in a few weeks! I might write a separate trip report for that one...

The faffing around on the Eurostar checks does sound a bit irritating, but it is how it's got to be done for now. If it means we can all start using Eurostar to visit Europe again, then it's got to be worth the effort
It just seems little better than flying at this point, the liquid restrictions are the only real difference. And obviously flying, whilst much less environmentally friendly, can get you much further in the same door to door journey time. I certainly couldn't imagine doing this trip by train both ways!
 

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Nowhere Heath
I can't say I blame you there, train both ways would be challenging. I'm expecting to book a trip to Zakopane, Poland, for January as soon as my new passport arrives. I want to be environmentally friendly and do it by rail all the way there and back, but that would take up a lot of my week off. Basically a 2 day trip from this part of England in each direction!

So if I do that I will probably break my rule with European trips and fly to/from Kraków. Or, in a bid to visit more of Poland, fly into/out of somewhere Gdansk, explore there then train it to Zakopane. We will see! I do have a craving for visiting Nice, Marseille and Monaco as well mind, so I might go there and finally do the LGV line out of Paris. Avignon looks nice too, we'll see what I decide in the coming weeks!

As for Budapest, I have a multi-day trip report on my trip report thread on the forum, but here's a link to Day 2 of it on WordPress which dives straight into the first full day of exploring. It might help give you some ideas for exploring the city, of course it may not!

 
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