London Travelcards at risk

[mattdickinson]

So is it your understanding that if I have an all-line rover and want to go from Shenfield to Slough that'd be allowed, but I wouldn't be able to use the same train and get off at Bond Street? A National Rail ticket from Shenfield to Slough would be OK because it'd have a maltese cross on it, presumably, so that's business as usual. Except that break of journey at Bond Street might not be allowed?

All line rovers are not valid on London Underground, so it wouldn't be valid between Stratford and Paddington whether you take the Central and Bakerloo lines or the Elizabeth line.

I think you can abandon your journey but not break it on a cross London (maltese cross) ticket.

 

[matt_world2004]

All line rovers are not valid on London Underground, so it wouldn't be valid between Stratford and Paddington whether you take the Central and Bakerloo lines or the Elizabeth line.

I think you can abandon your journey but not break it on a cross London (maltese cross) ticket.

An all line rover should be valid to Liverpool Street on the underground as it is an interavailable route

 

[Watershed]

All line rovers are not valid on London Underground

Except on interavailable routes, or where there is ticket acceptance, correct.

so it wouldn't be valid between Stratford and Paddington whether you take the Central and Bakerloo lines

It would be valid on the Central line as far as Liverpool Street as an interavailable route, but no further.

or the Elizabeth line

The Elizabeth line is not a London Underground service. The All Line Rover is valid, subject to certain time restrictions, on all services operated by all operators participating in the NRCoT - i.e. including TfL Rail/Elizabeth line. Just as it can be used to cross London on Thameslink as often as you like, including exiting at Farringdon, which is a LU managed station.

 

[jfollows]

The Elizabeth line is not a London Underground service. The All Line Rover is valid, subject to certain time restrictions, on all services operated by all operators participating in the NRCoT - i.e. including TfL Rail/Elizabeth line. Just as it can be used to cross London on Thameslink as often as you like, including exiting at Farringdon, which is a LU managed station.

That was my starting assumption, yes.
The fact that it won't work through the barriers/gates is nothing unusual since my last experience was that it worked on precisely 0% of National Rail gates/barriers, but there's going to be an issue of staff training at places like Bond Street (and Farringdon, although the latter already copes with Thameslink and validity of the same ticket).

 

[Haywain]

So is it your understanding that if I have an all-line rover and want to go from Shenfield to Slough that'd be allowed, but I wouldn't be able to use the same train and get off at Bond Street? A National Rail ticket from Shenfield to Slough would be OK because it'd have a maltese cross on it, presumably, so that's business as usual. Except that break of journey at Bond Street might not be allowed?

An All Line Rover doesn't have a cross-London marker and specifically excludes travel across London by underground.

 

[Wallsendmag]

As far as I'm aware the Elizabeth line is a National Rail service so an All Line Rover should be valid throughout.

 

[matt_world2004]

As far as I'm aware the Elizabeth line is a National Rail service so an All Line Rover should be valid throughout.

The core isn't part of the national rail network anymore than the Heathrow spur is part of the national rail network.

 

[jfollows]

An All Line Rover doesn't have a cross-London marker and specifically excludes travel across London by underground.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was valid .... I should have said that "a different one-time National Rail ticket for the same journey today would include the Underground sector because it would have a Maltese Cross" but even the National Rail ticket has the break of journey issue in future, that's to say that today it'd be valid to Bond Street, say, on the Underground but not to recommence the journey from there whereas with Crossrail/Elizabeth line it should be valid for break of journey.

The core isn't part of the national rail network anymore than the Heathrow spur is part of the national rail network.

But Heathrow is explicitly excluded from the all-line rover ticket, although it's valid for one journey with a Britrail ticket I recall, given that I used it when I had a Britrail ticket quite some time ago ......

EDIT and I meant to go on and say .... Crossrail/Elizabeth Line could be excluded from the all-line rover also, but then you'd have a single train on which the ticket was valid into London on one side and out of London on the other but not for the bit in the middle, which would be confusing and perhaps a bit silly.

And finally .... this isn't an academic question from me because I'm likely to be using an all-line rover in the near future, I'd planned to do so in October with my new Senior Railcard but I've put off my plans for a little while now, and there's always the chance that Crossrail and even Bond Street will be open by the time I do!

 

[matt_world2004]

Page 149 of the crossrail concession agreement

The Operator shall not Create or agree to Create any TSA Fare or Discount Card
except in accordance with RfL’s requirements pursuant to this paragraph

Fares in the core are new fares and the operator is banned from creating them .

Other sections of the crossrail concession agreement talk about the operators responsibility to maintain existing flows/fares under the ticket settlement agreement but not Create new ones. The operator is also required to retail non ticketing settlement agreement tickets The operator is also the lead retailer on western and Eastern sections of the line (and Abbey wood) it is not the lead retailer in the core or at any other core stations (Including core stations that it manages) I would imagine the concept of lead retailer doesn't apply to core station.

This sounds to me that the core is not part of the ticketing settlement agreement

Eastern and Western sections of the line are defined in the document to be between Liverpool Street and Shenfield.Reading/Heathrow and Paddington.

EDIT and I meant to go on and say .... Crossrail/Elizabeth Line could be excluded from the all-line rover also, but then you'd have a single train on which the ticket was valid into London on one side and out of London on the other but not for the bit in the middle, which would be confusing and perhaps a bit silly.

Yes but making the all line rover valid in the core effectively confers validity on near enough the whole london underground network in zone 1 due to the assumption there is intervailability on LU lines that parallel national rail lines. Indeed this would extend intervailability from Ealing Broadway to Stratford on the Central line. Which I cannot see tfl approving without receiving a share of ALR revenue.

 

[jfollows]

Yes but making the all line rover valid in the core effectively confers validity on near enough the whole london underground network in zone 1 due to the assumption there is intervailability on LU lines that parallel national rail lines. Indeed this would extend intervailability from Ealing Broadway to Stratford on the Central line. Which I cannot see tfl approving without receiving a share of ALR revenue.

It's confusing, I agree.
For me, if I had an ALR I'd never think of using it on the Central line Ealing-Stratford as you say, but if that's a potential implication then I agree it's problematic. But I can go London Bridge-Saint Pancras today on Thameslink can't I without this journey being valid on the Northern Line also?

 

[matt_world2004]

It's confusing, I agree.
For me, if I had an ALR I'd never think of using it on the Central line Ealing-Stratford as you say, but if that's a potential implication then I agree it's problematic. But I can go London Bridge-Saint Pancras today on Thameslink can't I without this journey being valid on the Northern Line also?

All National Rail tickets are valid between London Bridge/Elephant and castle and Kentish Town on the Northern Line as its an interaviailable route

Correction it's valid between the thameslink stations on any tube line but you can't use a National Rail ticket to get off at a station that's not a thameslink station and a few other named stations near thameslink.

 

[JonathanH]

All National Rail tickets are valid between London Bridge and Kentish Town on the Northern Line as its an interaviailable route

Correction it's valid between the thameslink stations on any tube line but you can't use a National Rail ticket to get off at a station that's not a thameslink station and a few other named stations near thameslink.

Even ones that say 'Via City Thameslink'?

(I note that travelling on the Northern line between London Bridge and Kentish Town would trigger the mixed-mode premium on Oyster / Contactless.)

 

[matt_world2004]

Even ones that say 'Via City Thameslink'?

(I note that travelling on the Northern line between London Bridge and Kentish Town would trigger the mixed-mode premium on Oyster / Contactless.)

Wouldn't such a routing point exclude rhe northern line even if the northern line was part of the national rail network?

 

[jfollows]

All National Rail tickets are valid between London Bridge/Elephant and castle and Kentish Town on the Northern Line as its an interaviailable route

Correction it's valid between the thameslink stations on any tube line but you can't use a National Rail ticket to get off at a station that's not a thameslink station and a few other named stations near thameslink.

Thank you, I learned something today and that's good!
I'm unlikely ever to put this new knowledge to the test by using my ALR on such a route, but it's good to know anyway.

 

[Class800]

All National Rail tickets are valid between London Bridge/Elephant and castle and Kentish Town on the Northern Line as its an interaviailable route

Correction it's valid between the thameslink stations on any tube line but you can't use a National Rail ticket to get off at a station that's not a thameslink station and a few other named stations near thameslink.

Have you or anyone else done this in practice? London Bridge tube staff are pretty awful - and have tried very hard to reject ticket acceptance when agreed and announced, claiming that the National rail service disruptions page is not relevant to them. So this interavailability seems to be something that they would not accept either

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn't such a routing point exclude rhe northern line even if the northern line was part of the national rail network?

Yes, but a ticket with a Maltese cross valid via Thameslink is trivially valid via the Northern Line so what additional validity is provided by 'interavailability' on the Northern Line for tickets valid on Thameslink?

Tickets to 'London Thameslink' are generally issued with the route 'Not Underground'.

I think my question is whether you can actually cite a ticket valid on Thameslink that is valid on the Northern Line by means of 'interavailability' that doesn't have a Maltese Cross.

 

[jfollows]

Yes but making the all line rover valid in the core effectively confers validity on near enough the whole london underground network in zone 1 due to the assumption there is intervailability on LU lines that parallel national rail lines. Indeed this would extend intervailability from Ealing Broadway to Stratford on the Central line. Which I cannot see tfl approving without receiving a share of ALR revenue.

So this may be technically correct, but aren't we talking about a small percentage of a miniscule revenue? That's to say, it'd cost more to administer than the money collected surely?

 

[mmh]

So is it your understanding that if I have an all-line rover and want to go from Shenfield to Slough that'd be allowed, but I wouldn't be able to use the same train and get off at Bond Street? A National Rail ticket from Shenfield to Slough would be OK because it'd have a maltese cross on it, presumably, so that's business as usual. Except that break of journey at Bond Street might not be allowed?

Not sure this hypothetical problem is useful, as your all line rover would be valid on any National Rail service and to alight anywhere you wanted. I suspect you know that. I suspect people are more interested in their local fares than the most niche tickets possible!

 

[jfollows]

Have you or anyone else done this in practice? London Bridge tube staff are pretty awful - and have tried very hard to reject ticket acceptance when agreed and announced, claiming that the National rail service disruptions page is not relevant to them. So this interavailability seems to be something that they would not accept either

I agree, I wouldn't even think of trying this even though I knew I was in the right.

Not sure this hypothetical problem is useful, as your all line rover would be valid on any National Rail service and to alight anywhere you wanted. I suspect you know that. I suspect people are more interested in their local fares than the most niche tickets possible!

The problems are that it's not hypothetical in my case, and that what I know doesn't matter because it's what the person on the gate line at Bond Street knows that matters here.

 

[Class800]

With National Rail network lines, I would be fairly confident to do anything except the most extreme loopholes, provided I knew it was right and had an itinerary, but with the Underground, it's so difficult even to get what is correct. Although I am still not always 100% confident breaking my journey - but it's a confidence thing, it will improve, and I do it sometimes

 

[mmh]

So this may be technically correct, but aren't we talking about a small percentage of a miniscule revenue? That's to say, it'd cost more to administer than the money collected surely?

He appears to be the only person making the leap between all line rover availability on Crossrail and that making it valid on LU. I'm not entirely sure why, or why his point has to include an ALR. I suspect we won't convince him that is not what will happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With all this talk of ALRs...how many are sold a year? Must be a very small number, so is this even worth them worrying about?

 

[jfollows]

With all this talk of ALRs...how many are sold a year? Must be a very small number, so is this even worth them worrying about?

I totally agree, I think I said as much, but since I'm likely to have one in the near future I'd like to know where I stand!

 

[matt_world2004]

Right if you dont believe this to be the case. Go on any national rail booking engine and try the following:

Set the date for the 6th March and do the following

1.) Book a ticket between any two existing TfL Rail stations eg West Ealing to Reading. You will be offered an itinerary.

2.) Book a ticket between any two core stations for example Paddington and Abbey wood and it will either say no fares available or will sell you a U zone ticket/Travelcard.

 

[mmh]

With National Rail network lines, I would be fairly confident to do anything except the most extreme loopholes, provided I knew it was right and had an itinerary, but with the Underground, it's so difficult even to get what is correct

With all this talk of ALRs...how many are sold a year? Must be a very small number, so is this even worth them worrying about?

I totally agree, I think I said as much, but since I'm likely to have one in the near future I'd like to know where I stand!

What's likely to happen: your all line rover will be valid on Crossrail as it will be a National Rail service

What might happen: TFL barriers reject the all line rover and you need to explain it to staff who have no idea what it is. (As is the case now)

What is unlikely to happen: Your all line rover is not valid on Crossrail

What won't happen: Your all line rover is valid on London Underground anywhere which isn't an interavailable route. (As is the case now)

Right if you dont believe this to be the case. Go on any national rail booking engine and try the following:

Set the date for the 6th March and do the following

1.) Book a ticket between any two existing TfL Rail stations eg West Ealing to Reading. You will be offered an itinerary.

2.) Book a ticket between any two core stations for example Paddington and Abbey wood and it will either say no fares available or will sell you a U zone ticket/Travelcard.

You really think it's surprising that you can't be a ticket for next March for a route that was supposed to open years ago? Not having fares, I'd put that down to a lack of confidence that it will ever open rather than any conspiracy, myself.

 

[matt_world2004]

You really think it's surprising that you can't be a ticket for next March for a route that was supposed to open years ago? Not having fares, I'd put that down to a lack of confidence that it will ever open rather than any conspiracy, myself.

You can buy london underground paper tickets to abbey Wood already they are marked Elizabeth line only. You have been able to since 2019

 

[Mike395]

Can we take any further 'NR ticket validity on Crossrail' chat elsewhere please? It's not easily possible for us to split as it's got a bit interwoven, but just a reminder that any further discussion here should focus on the potential withdrawal of Travelcards. Thank you!

 

[hkstudent]

I think the potential drop of travelcard may likely coincide with the introduction of PAYG fare in SE region, though that may not fully cover the whole NSE area.

Possible end to paper tickets in South East?

An article on the Telegraph / in the Sunday Telegraph suggest there are plans afoot to roll out contactless payments and “integrate it into London’s Oyster card regime” They also mention £2bn of savings are required, a “tough settlement” for the railway and that it may be a preemptive action to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CHAPS2034]

Bumping this thread up again

With the Mayor having recently come to a settlement with DfT and announced fare increases, does anyone please have any definitive information as to whether physical travel cards will be continuing?

With only coming to London a couple of times a year, I much prefer a physical ticket rather than messing about with contactless as my journeys are often complex and made up on the spur of the moment for a bit of bashing and pub visits!

Thanks for any help

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bumping this thread up again

With the Mayor having recently come to a settlement with DfT and announced fare increases, does anyone please have any definitive information as to whether physical travel cards will be continuing?

With only coming to London a couple of times a year, I much prefer a physical ticket rather than messing about with contactless as my journeys are often complex and made up on the spur of the moment for a bit of bashing and pub visits!

Surely the whole point of contactless is that it doesn't matter how complex your journeys are - just tap in and out properly, and it'll charge you the appropriate fare(s)?

Unless your "bashing" involves riding round the Circle Line and never going out of the station of course.