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This is what gets the current rail system a bad name

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mike57

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.
 
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Donny85

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Having spent the last 7-hours on a Inverness to Kings Cross service with just under an hour left to run, these are mine.

• 5-minutes of announcements before the journeys even begun of what seemed like LNERs terms and conditions.

• Inconsistency between operators, i.e. LNER shop shut 50-minutes for crew change, Avanti usually only about 20 or less.

• Rubbish seat / window alignment. 7-hours next to a pillow is not good.

• Half-baked attempts at technology, such as an at seat ordering system which is hit and miss if it will work or not.

• No facilities to pick a specific seat when booking in most instances.

• Seats which are uncomfortable on journeys of 3-hours or more.

This is the last I want to see of a train for a while.
 

Harpers Tate

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When something goes badly wrong - each and every time it happens, it's as if it's the first time in 100 years that it did. Northern - Moinday 21 Feb, Sheffield/Doncaster/Hull - I'm looking at you.
 

Grumpy Git

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.

Pathetic. The guard needs a kick up the arse.

I remember the first time I ever travelled by train in Switzerland. Our Zurich to Bern train was quite late and I was worried we would miss the onward connection, especially as it was late at night. The guard assured me there would be no problem, which of course there wasn't, (I was not aware of the way Swiss trains interconnnect at main stations at the time).
 

andystock22

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Having spent the last 7-hours on a Inverness to Kings Cross service with just under an hour left to run, these are mine.

• 5-minutes of announcements before the journeys even begun of what seemed like LNERs terms and conditions.

• Inconsistency between operators, i.e. LNER shop shut 50-minutes for crew change, Avanti usually only about 20 or less.

• Rubbish seat / window alignment. 7-hours next to a pillow is not good.

• Half-baked attempts at technology, such as an at seat ordering system which is hit and miss if it will work or not.

• No facilities to pick a specific seat when booking in most instances.

• Seats which are uncomfortable on journeys of 3-hours or more.

This is the last I want to see of a train for a while.

The Azumas are not really a suitable train for any journeys over 3 hours due to poor seat design. I wish UK train operators would take a trip to somewhere like Germany and travel on an ICE 3 train. The seats (especially in first class) are so comfortable, an five hour train journey is not a problem. Then again the traditional BR Mk3 seats were always comfortable.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.
This is fundamental issue that needs to be tackled urgently especially as the service reductions we are seeing mean that changing trains for many journeys will now be a necessity so connections need to built into the timetable with robust connection policy. If not these sort of incidents will seep into joe publics mindset that the railways can't be trusted to deliver them from A to B reliably.
 

yorkie

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors.
The rail industry in the UK has no intention of changing its ways; they ought to learn a thing or two from Switzerland.
Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.
He won't care. I would never do a job I didn't care about, but some people are in the industry for the money and the conditions, which are very good compared to many other industries. I can't see things changing.

Having spent the last 7-hours on a Inverness to Kings Cross service with just under an hour left to run, these are mine.

• 5-minutes of announcements before the journeys even begun of what seemed like LNERs terms and conditions.
See the dedicated thread on that topic; I've made my views on LNER very clear on there.

I can't see LNER changing their ways; who is going to make them?
• Inconsistency between operators, i.e. LNER shop shut 50-minutes for crew change, Avanti usually only about 20 or less.

• Rubbish seat / window alignment. 7-hours next to a pillow is not good.

• Half-baked attempts at technology, such as an at seat ordering system which is hit and miss if it will work or not.

• No facilities to pick a specific seat when booking in most instances.
Most train companies do not offer it; off the top of my head only Avanti, LNER and XC do but only for their own trains. Use Trainsplit instead; the people behind it do actually care (and are on this forum) unlike some others in the industry.

Pathetic. The guard needs a kick up the arse.
The Bishop Brennan treatment is pure fantasy I am afraid; the reality is that his employer will be very happy with his actions and the Government and other relevant bodies allow and even encourage this regime.
I remember the first time I ever travelled by train in Switzerland. Our Zurich to Bern train was quite late and I was worried we would miss the onward connection, especially as it was late at night. The guard assured me there would be no problem, which of course there wasn't, (I was not aware of the way Swiss trains interconnnect at main stations at the time).
Northern's management team would be sacked within days for utter incompetency in Switzerland

This is fundamental issue that needs to be tackled urgently especially as the service reductions we are seeing mean that changing trains for many journeys will now be a necessity so connections need to built into the timetable with robust connection policy. If not these sort of incidents will seep into joe publics mindset that the railways can't be trusted to deliver them from A to B reliably.
It should be, but I can assure you it won't be. Who is going to instigate it?
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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It should be, but I can assure you it won't be. Who is going to instigate it?
I'd like to see GBR have it as one of its core principles but until they are establish as an arms length organisation as you say it probably won't happen but there are still enough leaders who want to see the industry thrive not just sit back and collect the management fee who could make it happen now.
 

Spamcan81

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.

I've had this happen to me way back in BR days so sadly it's nothing new.
 

Grumpy Git

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I've had this happen to me way back in BR days so sadly it's nothing new.
There really is something amiss with people who act in this way.

I've seen the last train to Manchester leave South Parkway when a single young lady was at the bottom of the stairs on P1, again unforgiveable.
 

Donny_m

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Doesn’t it boil down to a fear of getting fined for even extremely minor delays and that reflecting on the train guard? If they changed their mindset on minor delays specifically related to late connections maybe people on the front line would be more open to it.

Reminds me of I think it’s Japan where they are docked money if they’re seconds late and it’s caused crashes.
 

Paul Jones 88

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The new intercity trains are really not the best, I have more comfort on a 375, 465, even an old 317.
This is not a great way to get people to take the train instead of driving their cars.
 

mrcheek

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.
I know we have had discussions elsewhere on why connections cant always be held, but theres no excuse for the guard here.

I would hope that those who missed the connection will make a proper complaint, and the guard be severely spoken to about it.

This is a known, and common connection. And I am sure most guards on that route are fully aware of the situation, and would normally wait if they could see the Bridlington line service approaching.
 

miklcct

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I know we have had discussions elsewhere on why connections cant always be held, but theres no excuse for the guard here.

I would hope that those who missed the connection will make a proper complaint, and the guard be severely spoken to about it.

This is a known, and common connection. And I am sure most guards on that route are fully aware of the situation, and would normally wait if they could see the Bridlington line service approaching.
It is impossible to hold connections everywhere without affecting the whole network. On any railways where different stopping patterns mix on the same track, if a train misses the slot and results in wrong position, it may be further delayed down the line.

However, I believe that all connections for the last train towards the whole network should be made protected even if it will delay the network, otherwise the train company will have responsibility to arrange alternative transport to carry stranded passengers.
 

Novern Uproar

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I can recall BR staff were taught 'Customer Care'. It was in reality maybe only a slogan but the guard in question needs to go on such a course. At Doncaster, I often used to observe the train from Hull arriving into platform 3 a few minutes late and the connecting London train further up the platform or on adjacent platform 1 was allowed to depart. Deeply infuriating for passengers.
 

JonathanH

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However, I believe that all connections for the last train towards the whole network should be made protected even if it will delay the network, otherwise the train company will have responsibility to arrange alternative transport to carry stranded passengers.
Difficult if the driver is going to end up being out of hours as a result of the delay or the unit has to beat an engineering block on its way back to the depot. There is sometimes a wider picture even with the last trains.

Clearly a bit of common sense is needed with last connections but it can't be indefinite.
 

the sniper

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I can recall BR staff were taught 'Customer Care'. It was in reality maybe only a slogan but the guard in question needs to go on such a course. At Doncaster, I often used to observe the train from Hull arriving into platform 3 a few minutes late and the connecting London train further up the platform or on adjacent platform 1 was allowed to depart. Deeply infuriating for passengers.

To be fair, that's a different scenario from the one the OP described. With the intensity the railway has been run here, at somewhere like Doncaster, you may not have a couple of minutes slack to play with, holding a London train.

By all means have a Swiss style system, but that shouldn't begin on the fly at platform level. It requires a different approach to planning timetables.
 

mike57

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would normally wait if they could see the Bridlington line service approaching
It wasn't just approaching, it was in the platform and the doors were just opening when he began closing his doors, at most 30 secs would have been needed, and he looked straight through the people getting off our train.

In winter Seamer is a miserable station to be stuck at for an hour. The shelters are unheated and draughty with very narrow bench seats that are fine for 5 or 10 mins but uncomfortable for an hour, the proper seats are in the open (and it was raining). The nearest facilties are a good 10 mins walk away at Morrisons, and the 10 mins only applies if you know about the snicket behind the houses, its not signposted.

I am now wondering if the attitude/acton I saw is related to the ongoing dispute between conductors and TPE.

I think connections are one area where GBR need to get involved and set some requirements. If staff are unwilling or unable to use common sense then it will have to be spelled out to them. In this case the York train cannot leave until the service from Hull and Bridlington has cleared the jumction just to the west of the station if the Hull service is around 5 mins late, and at that point it is visible and audible to people on the platform, (except obviously the guard in question), so a simple rule at Seamer would be 'do not depart Seamer if connecting service is in sight'. Maximum delay would be around 2 minutes. Maybe a connection policy for every connecting point, to depend upon frequency of service, and other conditions, and possibly even publish them, then people know where they are.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Doesn’t it boil down to a fear of getting fined for even extremely minor delays and that reflecting on the train guard?
And/or maybe the arrival at Seamer from Bridlington being a Northern train, whereas the departure to York (via Malton) would invariably be a TPE.
 

AndyMike

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The Azumas are not really a suitable train for any journeys over 3 hours due to poor seat design. I wish UK train operators would take a trip to somewhere like Germany and travel on an ICE 3 train. The seats (especially in first class) are so comfortable, an five hour train journey is not a problem. Then again the traditional BR Mk3 seats were always comfortable.
Couldn’t agree more. As so often, the assumption in the UK seems to be that train travel will always be a second choice, and therefore, the passenger experience should reflect that.
 

Scott1

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Can't speak for their employer but at mine if I am over my time by 30 or more seconds I have to justify that, and holding for transferring passengers won't be accepted. My personal feelings aside I do what I'm told by the person signing my wages off!
 

Mcr Warrior

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Starting to seem as if the imperative to meet punctuality / right time departure targets, is now outweighing most other considerations. Such is the modern railway! :rolleyes:
 

david1212

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@mike57 states the Bridlington-Scarborough was about 5 minutes late.
A thought is the guard of the Scarborough-York train being more concerned about on-time statistics than passengers.
Edit - as now posted above as I was typing.

Regardless this is appalling. Applying the 5 minute on-time rule the Bridlington train if not on-time must have been very close to it. Looking at National Rail Jouney Planner this is an ' official ' connection. Given this the Scarborough train ought to officially wait up to five minutes after the scheduled departure time. I hope the passengers claimed delay-repay. Further I would be putting in a report of poor service.

The Scarborough-York line does not have a high number of trains scheduled and ( correct me if wrong ) is double track throughout so no issues with trains crossing. I will be very surprised if there will be some recovery in the timings so a late departure from Scarborough / Seamer can still be a true ontime arrival into York. Even without recovering one minute as all that was needed ought to be very achievable.

I once had the doors almost shut in my face. Having queued for tickets at the TVM I had just stepped onto the platform as the doors closed. Joining the train at the nearest door would have taken less than 10 seconds. The next train was an hour or so. Given the ticket was valid two routes without timetables to hand ( this was years ago so no phone or train wi-fi ) I chanced taking the first train in the opposite direction then changing to get to a different station at my the destination would be quicker. Had it not been at least better facilities to wait at the station where I changed.
 

Western Sunset

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I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.
Absolutely appalling.

Yet good things do happen. Was at Westbury on Thursday. 1650 Ply - Padd running over 5 mins late. 1727 Cardiff - Portsmouth running a couple of minutes early, but held so passengers can catch it - it involves changing platforms via the subway. Both operated by same TOC so maybe that's why. All those who wanted to make the connection did so.
 

skyhigh

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Applying the 5 minute on-time rule the Bridlington train if not on-time must have been very close to it. Looking at National Rail Jouney Planner this is an ' official ' connection. Given this the Scarborough train ought to officially wait up to five minutes after the scheduled departure time.
Where is this officially stated?
 
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As I read a journey with 15 or more stops has an extra 1 min for stragglers who can't get out of bed/need that coffee/caught in traffic* equals 15 mins late at destination, and out come the masses claiming delay-repay, traincrew get a please explain, the whole world and his dog complain that this service is always late. and don't get me started on pathing/connections etc.
All because someone cannot haul their derriere to the station on time

*delete as appropriate
 

Dr Hoo

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Regardless this is appalling. Applying the 5 minute on-time rule the Bridlington train if not on-time must have been very close to it. Looking at National Rail Jouney Planner this is an ' official ' connection. Given this the Scarborough train ought to officially wait up to five minutes after the scheduled departure time. I hope the passengers claimed delay-repay. Further I would be putting in a report of poor service.

The Scarborough-York line does not have a high number of trains scheduled and ( correct me if wrong ) is double track throughout so no issues with trains crossing. I will be very surprised if there will be some recovery in the timings so a late departure from Scarborough / Seamer can still be a true ontime arrival into York. Even without recovering one minute as all that was needed ought to be very achievable.
Could you also clarify the "5-minute on-time rule"? (Are you, perhaps, confusing the Public Performance Measure (PPM) with Delay Attribution?)

I thought that Malton only had a single platform, so is effectively a single track bottleneck, and there is also a short section of single line on the approach to York station.

There are also, presumably, many further 'connections' at York.
 

yorkie

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Starting to seem as if the imperative to meet punctuality / right time departure targets, is now outweighing most other considerations. Such is the modern railway! :rolleyes:
The priority is for trains to depart on time, not for delays to passengers to be minimised.

Companies like LNER are obsessed with making trains depart from places like King's Cross early, even if they then have to come to a stand before the next station due to being too early for the path to be available.

Where is this officially stated?
It's their opinion, not a statement of fact.

Could you also clarify the "5-minute on-time rule"? (Are you, perhaps, confusing the Public Performance Measure (PPM) with Delay Attribution?)
They are presumably referring to the default 5 minute interchange time for connections to be deemed valid.

But the reality is a valid connection is unlikely to be held on the National Rail network, with very few exceptions.
 
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