• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotland, Brexit & IndyRef2: Implications, considerations and similar (including impact on rail).

Status
Not open for further replies.

HarryL

Member
Joined
14 Sep 2020
Messages
239
Location
Leeds
"Great British Railways" is in fact to be an English body responsible for English-controlled services only, so it is indeed a rather stupid name. Objecting to Wales and Scotland, where transport is devolved, not dropping the Scotrail and TfW brands is to my mind arguing it the wrong way round. It's the Westminster government calling their England-specific body "Great British" that is the real problem. (It also sounds pretentious but that's for another thread)

You wouldn't expect TfL to rebrand the Croydon trams to "British Trams" and insist on sticking green roundels all over Supertram and the Midland Metro...
Agreed with this. I still maintain that the brand name should have been National Rail. It would continue the name people are already (somewhat) familliar with and made more sense in that it wouldn't give the vibe that it's supposed to take over TfW/ScotRail.

Maybe the cynic in me believes that the name was intended to make people think it's going to take over TfW/ScotRail so they can rile up a bit of drama when the devolved governments inevitably say no.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,318
have any welsh stations got gbr branding or is that not happening
Not happening
Wales has spent a lot of time, effort and money to build a consistent Welsh brand and a typeface family that are all intended to be used universally by the Welsh Government, including in transport. I can't imagine they would want to give any of that up or water it down, nor should they.

ScotRail too is a brand enforced by the Scottish Government, regardless of operator, and is a devolved matter. They have just established ScotRail Trains as their nationalised operator, so I can't see them changing it again for GBR.
It's not just on the railways / trains that Welsh Govt intend the TfW brand to be used. They also announced yesterday that they have plans to undo the messy, fragmented privatisation of buses from the 1980s and have one unified bus operation across Wales, operating under the TfW brand. This will then allow integration of fares and ticketing between buses and rail across Wales, allowing the creation of one unified, integrated public transport network.

Welsh Govt are not going to abandon these plans and throw away the development of the TfW brand over the last 6 years just because Westminster wants to assert its authority over Wales & Scotland through "Great British Railways".

Transport Scotland also confirmed in the latest issue of Modern Railways (pg. 29) that the ScotRail brand is not going anywhere.
 
Last edited:

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Agreed with this. I still maintain that the brand name should have been National Rail. It would continue the name people are already (somewhat) familliar with and made more sense in that it wouldn't give the vibe that it's supposed to take over TfW/ScotRail.

Maybe the cynic in me believes that the name was intended to make people think it's going to take over TfW/ScotRail so they can rile up a bit of drama when the devolved governments inevitably say no.

Not really. The undevolved TOCs, inaccurately called "English" TOCs on here, cover long distance rail services in both Scotland & Wales. Thus, GBR is a perfectly reasonable name. I can't understand how some on here could think something like "Rail England" would be more appropriate.
 

permarquis

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2022
Messages
64
My view remains that we should fully devolve Network Rail to Wales/Scotland (i.e. completely separate organisations, which they could then vertically integrate with their permanently-nationalised operator) and that the new body should be "Rail England". That needn't be chucked all over the trains, though - the international trains from England to Scotland should be branded "InterCity" with only a small "operated by Rail England" tagline.

split from this thread:

I'm not surprised you're getting pushback on this, but I think all of that sounds extremely sensible. I'd argue that the partnership that already exists between ScotRail and Network Rail has been relatively successful, and there's no reason to believe it couldn't be even more so with full integration. The only thing I'd amend is that in this ideal world I'd prefer cross-border trains to be joint ventures, rather than wholly the responsibility of Rail England (or whatever it ended up being called).

Nonsense. Even if that were that case, it is not the case now.
I am English but lived in Scotland for an extended period, and whether or not you agree with it, Bletchleyite is absolutely right: independence is an inevitability, barring something seismic. An overwhelming percentage of the younger generations (and even then, not that young) are resolutely pro-independence. More importantly, a significant minority of pro-union voters hold that view much more softly than some people would like to think. Scotland is moving in a different direction and few who have lived there would credibly try and deny that, regardless of their leanings.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Then, we've got bigger worries than branding. How passport checks are to be done being one of them. On board duty free may be nice consequence though.
 

permarquis

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2022
Messages
64
Then, we've got bigger worries than branding. How passport checks are to be done being one of them. On board duty free may be nice consequence though.
Well, by the same token: if the separation is so acrimonious that passport checks are being done, the passport checks themselves will be small fry. In any case, I'm not saying it'll be easy, just that I think it's very likely to happen, and probably before 2050.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Well, if a small, culturally similar island that speaks the same language separates, it'll be difficult to claim there's no acrimony involved. Regardless, passports are standard fare, including amongst friendly nations.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Well, if a small, culturally similar island that speaks the same language separates, it'll be difficult to claim there's no acrimony involved. Regardless, passports are standard fare, including amongst friendly nations.

No passports are required to travel within the island of Ireland. I doubt Scotland would be any different. Its economy and relationship with England would I reckon be pretty much the same.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Ireland has a Schengen opt-out and a little thing called the Belfast Agreement. It's apples & oranges.

And if Scotland desires the same economy & relationship with England that it does now, then becoming a foreign country to it makes no sense and will fundamentally change it, no matter what. This is what the separatists and their English supporters both need to appreciate.
 

StephenHunter

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
2,118
Location
London
No passports are required to travel within the island of Ireland. I doubt Scotland would be any different. Its economy and relationship with England would I reckon be pretty much the same.
Customs checks might be a thing though. Switzerland is in Schengen, but still has those.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Any checks that are currently done between the UK and France would be a thing. To argue Scotland would be different is, to be kind, hopeful. If Scots genuinely think they're foreigners and you also genuinely think they're foreigners, that should be utterly uncontroversial.
 

permarquis

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2022
Messages
64
[...] becoming a foreign country to it makes no sense [...]
I'm on the fence when it comes to independence, so don't mistake this for an agenda, but I really think this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the pro-independence vote. It makes perfect sense to them, and many can express why very articulately. Their priorities are simply different to yours.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
Whatever the agenda, becoming a foreign country is the result and the consequence.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,318
Well, if a small, culturally similar island that speaks the same language separates, it'll be difficult to claim there's no acrimony involved. Regardless, passports are standard fare, including amongst friendly nations.
You obviously don't understand much about Scottish & Welsh culture if you think that just because England, Scotland and Wales all speak the same language and share the same island, that they all share the same homogenous culture. The difference in the politics of the 3 nations is also becoming increasingly apparent, e.g. Scotland is pro-EU, England is not.

The Westminster government's increasing 'muscular unionism' by undermining devolution at every opportunity is not helping relations between the devolved governments and Westminster. "Great British Railways" is just one example of that, the devolved governments were not even consulted on how it would work or affect rail services in Scotland & Wales before the initial Williams-Shapps plan was published.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
You obviously don't understand much about Scottish & Welsh culture if you think that just because England, Scotland and Wales all speak the same language and share the same island, that they all share the same homogenous culture. The difference in the politics of the 3 nations is also becoming increasingly apparent, e.g. Scotland is pro-EU, England is not.

The Westminster government's increasing 'muscular unionism' by undermining devolution at every opportunity is not helping relations between the devolved governments and Westminster. "Great British Railways" is just one example of that, the devolved governments were not even consulted on how it would work or affect rail services in Scotland & Wales before the initial Williams-Shapps plan was published.

Bye then. Don't be a stranger though. Remember, you'll be able to visit for 180 days in any calendar year.
 

permarquis

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2022
Messages
64
Bye then. Don't be a stranger though. Remember, you'll be able to visit for 180 days in any calendar year.
I don't expect they'll want to visit, if this is the response they get when trying to have a discussion.

Do you know many people whose holidays last longer than 180 days? That's a generous holiday entitlement! Regardless though, people in Scotland who wish to retain their British passport (and vice versa) will absolutely be allowed to, so it's moot. There's no political reality in which that doesn't happen, for all sorts of reasons.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
I don't expect they'll want to visit, if this is the response they get when trying to have a discussion.

Do you know many people whose holidays last longer than 180 days? That's a generous holiday entitlement! Regardless though, people in Scotland who wish to retain their British passport (and vice versa) will absolutely be allowed to, so it's moot. There's no political reality in which that doesn't happen, for all sorts of reasons.

Who said anything about holiday entitlement? And also, I merely said "bye, don't be a stranger", which is perfectly fine.

Another big assumption there with the passport thing. Didn't happen in Czechoslovakia, for instance.

Anyway, even if Cardiff123 doesn't visit in person, I'll probably still see him about in the International Transport section of RF. So, I suppose it wouldn't be goodbye, merely farewell.
 

HarryL

Member
Joined
14 Sep 2020
Messages
239
Location
Leeds
Not really. The undevolved TOCs, inaccurately called "English" TOCs on here, cover long distance rail services in both Scotland & Wales. Thus, GBR is a perfectly reasonable name. I can't understand how some on here could think something like "Rail England" would be more appropriate.
The thread is getting rather off topic here, but calling TOCs that aren't the responsibility of the devolved governments English is a fairly accurate term to be fair. You can operate into other countries without being named after that location. European rail operators do it every day, you wouldn't call SNCF a German company just because it travels into German stations for example.
 

Gareth

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2011
Messages
1,449
Location
Liverpool
The thread is getting rather off topic here, but calling TOCs that aren't the responsibility of the devolved governments English is a fairly accurate term to be fair. You can operate into other countries without being named after that location. European rail operators do it every day, you wouldn't call SNCF a German company just because it travels into German stations for example.

All I was saying was that it isn't strictly accurate, which it isn't. I understand why some people say it as a shorthand but really, they're under the auspices of the UK DfT and operate across Great Britain. Also, calling the non-devolved TOCs "English" excludes London Overground and Merseyrail, both of which are actually wholly within England. And, as if calling it "Rail England" wouldn't see numerous complaints, probably by pretty much the same people.
 

Hb06_

Member
Joined
27 Mar 2020
Messages
174
Location
Northampton
I'm gonna be a little bored over the next few days, and I thought I'd spend some time designing my own Great British Railways. From signage to a logo etc.

Has anyone got any preferences or thoughts before I start? Obviously I have some personal preferences (I'm quite a fan of the EMR signage), but let me know what you all think.
 

domcoop7

Member
Joined
15 Mar 2021
Messages
240
Location
Wigan
The Westminster government's increasing 'muscular unionism' by undermining devolution at every opportunity is not helping relations between the devolved governments and Westminster. "Great British Railways" is just one example of that, the devolved governments were not even consulted on how it would work or affect rail services in Scotland & Wales before the initial Williams-Shapps plan was published.
So, to be clear:-

A railway company, Network Rail, is (de facto) owned by the UK Government and is controlled by the UK Government.

Rail Transport is a reserved matter in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 (see here), and in section E2 of Schedule 7A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (see here).

Rail franchising and passenger service subsidy is devolved in Scotland and Wales. (But nobody from the UK Government has done anything that makes any difference to the Welsh or Scottish rail franchises, or to the amount of subsidy granted to them)

The UK Government - who own and pay for and have sole responsibility for making policy for - the railway network, decide to make a policy for the railway network that they own and pay for. Part of that policy involves changing the name of the railway company they own, and using a new typeface, design guide, and ticketing website.

And because the UK Government didn't ask permission of devolved governments (who have no legal role whatsoever), before the UK Government made the policy for the thing which the UK Government has sole responsibility for, that is "muscular unionism", and "undermining devolution"????

Because presumably, the UK Government should pretend it isn't the UK Government, but is just the English Government (even though it isn't, and even though it is funded by taxation paid for by people outside of England who get to vote in elections to its Parliament)? And therefore instruct its railway infrastructure company when branding Cardiff Central, and Glasgow Central, and Edinburgh Waverley, and all the signs on bridges and level crossings, and on publicity connected to the new ticketing system when used on tickets in Scotland or Wales, and on publicity on trains contracted by the UK Government operating in Scotland or Wales either, and in train planning functions:-

a) to pretend that they are a Welsh government / Scottish government body and brand themselves using the current name of the passenger franchise in those countries; or,
b) to call themselves English Railways (because a sign at Glasgow Central saying "Welcome to English Railways" would go down brilliantly, I'm sure, just as would the ticket booking website for someone buying a return from Aberystwyth to Welshpool being called "English Railways" go down swimmingly).?????
 

contrex

Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
862
Location
St Werburghs, Bristol
Mod Note: Posts #1 - #24 originally in this thread.

Since Brexit, I have been checking house prices in Edinburgh, bearing in mind that Nicola Sturgeon has said that anyone 'ordinarily resident' in Scotland on Day One of an independent Scotland would be entitled to a Scottish passport. ('Come on up!' she said in a speech). Of course, there are a number of imponderables, e.g. will there be an Indyref 2, would an independent Scotland get EU membership in my lifetime (I am 70 next week). I could buy a very decent place in a nice part of Edinburgh for much less than I can get for my ordinary 3-bed terraced property in an 'up-and-coming' part of Bristol. It might be worth it anyway just to get away from the 'racists from Sunderland' mentioned above, and also other things about present-day England that annoy me, e.g. White Van Men with shaven heads with 'Engerland' flags on their vehicles. Plus I love the Morningside accent. Also there is the Auld Alliance (I have been a Francophile and able to speak French for than 60 years).
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
would an independent Scotland get EU membership in my lifetime (I am 70 next week)
Probably worthy of a thread of its own once we know if/when the second independence referendum is announced, but I'd expect the timeline for Scotentry to be relatively compressed as Scotland is already pretty well aligned with EU norms and rules.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,912
Location
Sunny South Lancs
Probably worthy of a thread of its own once we know if/when the second independence referendum is announced, but I'd expect the timeline for Scotentry to be relatively compressed as Scotland is already pretty well aligned with EU norms and rules.
That's a somewhat complacent position. Spain's opposition to potential Catalan independence could well lead to it seeking to block the entry of an independent Scotland for as long as possible so as to avoid setting any precedent.
 

Sad Sprinter

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
1,800
Location
Way on down South London town
You obviously don't understand much about Scottish & Welsh culture if you think that just because England, Scotland and Wales all speak the same language and share the same island, that they all share the same homogenous culture. The difference in the politics of the 3 nations is also becoming increasingly apparent, e.g. Scotland is pro-EU, England is not.

The Westminster government's increasing 'muscular unionism' by undermining devolution at every opportunity is not helping relations between the devolved governments and Westminster. "Great British Railways" is just one example of that, the devolved governments were not even consulted on how it would work or affect rail services in Scotland & Wales before the initial Williams-Shapps plan was published.

Nebulous statement: there were literally more Remain voters in the whole of England than in Scotland. While England (and Wales) did vote leave, a pro-European Scot will easily find kinship with a pro-European Englishman. But this kind of language conveniently portrays England as a homogenous, right-wing, Europhobic country. Which it is not.

I'm half Welsh and I can argue you don't understand much about Welsh culture. Wales is also far from homogenous and there is from what I've seen more north/south, east/west animosity than Welsh/English animosity.
 

simonw

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
755
That's a somewhat complacent position. Spain's opposition to potential Catalan independence could well lead to it seeking to block the entry of an independent Scotland for as long as possible so as to avoid setting any precedent.
Different scenario. Spain is in the EU, the UK isnt. So Scotland wouldn't be splitting from an existing EU member as Catalan would be, were it to splt from Spain.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,035
Location
No longer here
Different scenario. Spain is in the EU, the UK isnt. So Scotland wouldn't be splitting from an existing EU member as Catalan would be, were it to splt from Spain.
Fairly sure this is about to get rolled into another thread, but the point is that Scotland must secede through entirely legal means from the UK, using only the means provided through the gift of Westminster via a referendum. Even so, the Spanish government would not want to be seen to green-light "secession and accession" for its own political ends with its own separatist issues, and would have to tread carefully, at least internally.

Indyref2 does not seem very likely right now, only a possibility. We will see how far the intellectually dishonest "Brexit was terrible because of the disruption and uncertainty it created but Scottish independence will be absolutely fine, trust me" arguments get in Scotland in the next few years.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,577
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
It might be worth it anyway just to get away from the 'racists from Sunderland' mentioned above

As the TV presenter Jean Johansson says on the BBC News website today, Scotland unfortunately is not exactly bereft of racists itself;

And let's not get started on the sectarian divide; Broken glass thrown into the goal area at Ibrox today !

White Van Men with shaven heads with 'Engerland' flags on their vehicles.

Whereas up here we have the Saltire appropriated as the symbol of Scottish nationalism.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,640
Probably worthy of a thread of its own once we know if/when the second independence referendum is announced, but I'd expect the timeline for Scotentry to be relatively compressed as Scotland is already pretty well aligned with EU norms and rules.
Though equally you would have expected the Brexit negotiations should also have been much simpler as the UK was fully aligned. Despite that the EU insist on the full process.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top