Buying on train

[N Levers]

Ok Don't know if this question has already been asked (probably has) but depending on the answer I then have another question:

If the ticket machine at the station is broken/off, when boarding the train is it your resposibility to find a guard to sell you a ticket or is it ok to sit and wait for a guard?

 

[Mojo]

There is no requirement documented that you must seek out the guard if there are no facilities for you to buy.

In addition, see my post here, as on some routes it is also considered rude and jumping the queue to approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket. I was a regular commuter on the Severn Beach line in Bristol (all stations unstaffed except for Bristol Temple Meads) a few years ago, and when people did this then they would always get shouted down by others (including me if I was close enough), and in some cases the guard would inform them that they would be seen in due course as some passengers got on earlier but had not yet been seen.

 

[sheff1]

I would always wait for the guard to appear and then ask them for a ticket. I would not wish to pester them whilst they were possibly engaged in safety critical tasks.
No doubt others will advise whether this is the 'right' answer.

 

[yorkie]

This has cropped up on this forum a couple of times before. There is no requirement to seek a guard (however in certain cases it may be beneficial and/or advisable to do so; not in your case though) in the case of boarding a train with a conductor on a line with many unstaffed stations approaching a major terminus, it could be seen as "queue jumping" and other passengers may not be too happy at you doing that to save yourself time at the barrier if they then have to queue at the excess fares window because the guard didn't get to them, although I have no idea whether that would apply in your case or not.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Personally, I would go and find the guard otherwise it could be seen as hoping to get out of it.

But there is no rule, and it's up to the passenger, guard, and local practices.

 

[yorkie]

Personally, I would go and find the guard otherwise it could be seen as hoping to get out of it

I knew you'd repeat what you said before. You would make yourself very unpopular on many routes around here standing over the guard asking for a ticket when he/she was about to issue a ticket to someone who was waiting for ages to be served who is then faced with queuing at the excess fares window at Leeds.

I refer you to my previous answer to you, my position has not changed.

The OP asked if there is a requirement to seek the guard, I trust you admit that no such requirement exists?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But there is no rule,.

You mean no requirement for the passenger to seek the guard?

and it's up to the passenger,

Agreed, the passenger has the choice of seeking the guard or not.

I wouldn't normally do so, unless I had to ask a favour. If you want a favour (this doesn't apply in the OP's case) it is good to ask. e.g. I once lost reservations for an AP ticket, so I sought the guard before they found me. Or if I had a ticket to the next stop and wanted to go overdistance, it may be wise to find the guard before you got to the next stop. But none of these apply in a simple case of boarding when facilities are not available to buy a ticket.

guard, and local practices.

Not quite sure what you mean by either of those. Up to guards to do what?

 

[Ferret]

I knew you'd repeat what you said before. You would make yourself very unpopular on many routes around here standing over the guard asking for a ticket when he/she was about to issue a ticket to someone who was waiting for ages to be served who is then faced with queuing at the excess fares window at Leeds.

I refer you to my previous answer to you, my position has not changed.

The OP asked if there is a requirement to seek the guard, I trust you admit that no such requirement exists?

The only rule as such (well, law really!) is that the onus is on you, the passenger to pay your fare. I guess seeking out a Guard could be part of making sure you pay your fare - but if the guard is selling tickets to others then you'll have to wait your turn. Or pay at the destination station of course...!

 

[Nick O. Teen]

In my experience ( 3 years), genuine customers will come and seek me out, or sit at the back of the train, when they are unable to use on-platform ticket machines.

This is quite frequent, as cash is now not accepted in the machines along my lines of route because of vandalism, and many people prefer to pay cash.

I have no problem with being approached.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I knew you'd repeat what you said before. You would make yourself very unpopular on many routes around here standing over the guard asking for a ticket when he/she was about to issue a ticket to someone who was waiting for ages to be served who is then faced with queuing at the excess fares window at Leeds.

You're so predictable Yorkie. As soon as I posted that I knew you would come blundering along and trying to make an argument out of it :roll:
I don't care whether I make myself unpopular. I don't (maybe you do!) travel by train to be popular. Anyway, since my normal commute isn't around Yorkshire, people round here tend to go and find the guard :roll:

I refer you to my previous answer to you, my position has not changed.

I couldn't care less about your 'position'! This is one of those things where there is no 'answer'; only the best of a bad job.

The OP asked if there is a requirement to seek the guard, I trust you admit that no such requirement exists?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps if you had read the whole of my post you would see that

You mean no requirement for the passenger to seek the guard?

Agreed, the passenger has the choice of seeking the guard or not.

Ah, I see you have now read the post! Yes, the passenger can do what they like really it that respect.

I wouldn't normally do so, unless I had to ask a favour. If you want a favour (this doesn't apply in the OP's case) it is good to ask. e.g. I once lost reservations for an AP ticket, so I sought the guard before they found me. Or if I had a ticket to the next stop and wanted to go overdistance, it may be wise to find the guard before you got to the next stop. But none of these apply in a simple case of boarding when facilities are not available to buy a ticket.

None of these apply because there is nothing to apply. Don't give the impression that there are rules about this

Not quite sure what you mean by either of those. Up to guards to do what?

Up to the guard to sell you the ticket, ask you to sit down and wait etc.

 

[yorkie]

You're so predictable Yorkie. As soon as I posted that I knew you would come blundering along and trying to make an argument out of it :roll:

The OPs question was " is it your responsibility to find a guard to sell you a ticket or is it ok to sit and wait for a guard? "

And the basic answer is "No it isn't, and yes it is OK" yet your answer suggested otherwise. You knew I would come "blundering" (where's the blunder?) because you knew your answer was misleading.

I am glad that you admit there is no such requirement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my experience ( 3 years), genuine customers will come and seek me out, or sit at the back of the train, when they are unable to use on-platform ticket machines.

How do you know that anyone else is not genuine?

People should be able to board/sit anywhere without being made to feel guilty of anything.

A couple of weeks ago when I boarded a train at Micklefield, we got on at the front as that's the nearest door to where the steps were, and the train pulled in as we got there. If the guard had suggested that any of us who needed to buy a ticket were not 'genuine' I would have found that totally unacceptable. The guard went to the front first anyway, which makes sense as he would be nearer his cab when the train got to Leeds.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And the basic answer is "No it isn't, and yes it is OK" yet your answer suggested otherwise. You knew I would come "blundering" (where's the blunder?) because you knew your answer was misleading.

It was not misleading in the slightest. I said personally I would go and find the guard but others may not. Or did you not understand that?

If anything your answer was misleading because you were giing the impression there were rules for this sort if thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am glad that you admit there is no such requirement.

Hardly an admission - it's fact :roll:

 

[blacknight]

There is no requirement documented that you must seek out the guard if there are no facilities for you to buy.

Our friends at East Midlands Train aka Stagecoach beg to differ & have the following in their Penalty Fares scheme, might not be legally binding but EMT have published the following which puts responsiblity on passenger to find member of staff rather than wait for guard to do a ticket check.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/legal/pages/penaltyfares.aspx

 

[Ferret]

Our friends at East Midlands Train aka Stagecoach beg to differ & have the following in their Penalty Fares scheme, might not be legally binding but EMT have published the following which puts responsiblity on passenger to find member of staff rather than wait for guard to do a ticket check.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/legal/pages/penaltyfares.aspx

That's interesting! Like I said before though, in law, the onus is on the passenger to pay their fare, not the TOC's employees to go hunting for the passenger. Whether you pay at origin, go looking for the guard or wait for him to come to you, or pay at your destination - so long as you do one of those then you've fulfilled your obligations!

 

[MikeWh]

I think it boils down to the overall situation. If it is a train in a PF area where ticket purchasing is not a problem at most stations apart from the one where the machine has been vandalised, then perhaps then it is a good idea to seek out the guard. But if most stations along the line have no ticket facilities and the guard is going to be going down the train selling the full range of tickets to everyone then I would say it is good manners to just wait at your seat until the guard gets to you.

I have no experience of this sort of thing down here where every train is DOO of course, but I do have vivid memories of travelling on routemaster buses in the 60s and 70s and there is no way that anyone would try to pay the conductor before sitting down on those. You just waited for him to come round.

 

[island]

Our friends at East Midlands Train aka Stagecoach beg to differ & have the following in their Penalty Fares scheme, might not be legally binding but EMT have published the following which puts responsiblity on passenger to find member of staff rather than wait for guard to do a ticket check.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/legal/pages/penaltyfares.aspx

That's part of the FAQ, and is wrong. If you legitimately get on a train in a PF area (e.g. with a Permit to Travel for 5p, or when you have cash and the vending machine is only taking cards or v/v) and you do not see a guard, staff member, or open ticket office (i.e. opportunity to buy a proper ticket) on your way, you don't have to go out of your way to find one.

 

[jon0844]

That's interesting! Like I said before though, in law, the onus is on the passenger to pay their fare, not the TOC's employees to go hunting for the passenger. Whether you pay at origin, go looking for the guard or wait for him to come to you, or pay at your destination - so long as you do one of those then you've fulfilled your obligations!

Exactly. Like shoplifting, you should only be considered to be breaking the law if you got to your destination and walked out without making any attempt to pay. Not at the point where a TM gets to you and thinks you were 'hiding' in some way. If you board a train part way through its journey, how do you even know where the staff member is?

I do therefore agree that you should not need to go and hunt for someone on a train, potentially losing your seat, having to carry your bag(s) or lose them, and (which I hadn't thought of) annoy those who feel you're jumping the queue.

The rules state you must get a ticket at the earliest opportunity (when they come to you) or the destination. Now if nobody comes to you and you get to the destination to see the gates open, this is when you MUST seek to pay. Not walk out. Once you've done this, you've knowingly avoided paying your fare.

If there's absolutely no way to pay then that's an issue worthy of discussion. In my case, I'd seek any member of staff and explain the issue - and they may well tell me to just go.

If the station is covered with RPIs and police, you approach and explain the problem and they must sell you a ticket - not treat you like a criminal. If they can't be bothered to check, I'd refuse to accept anything other than a ticket.

In either case, you could write to the TOC and complain about the lack of ticketing facilities and that you were unable to buy a ticket - which either resulted in you being unable to buy a ticket at all, or got you hassle at the destination. I'd love to see their response to a letter moaning that you couldn't give them money - but if enough people did so, they might actually do something about it.

I really don't see the need for petty arguing on here, as some valid circumstances would stop me seeking out staff. On the other hand, on a long trip, if I was with other people, I'd have no such problem as I could have my stuff/seat looked after.

 

[blacknight]

That's part of the FAQ, and is wrong. If you legitimately get on a train in a PF area (e.g. with a Permit to Travel for 5p, or when you have cash and the vending machine is only taking cards or v/v) and you do not see a guard, staff member, or open ticket office (i.e. opportunity to buy a proper ticket) on your way, you don't have to go out of your way to find one.

You might think that but East Midlands Trains have a differing view on the matter. http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/EMTrains/AboutUs/Penalty-Fares-Leaflet.pdf

 

[Mintona]

I do appreciate it when a passenger comes and finds me as they seem to be genuinely making an effort to pay their fare. Obviously with luggage etc. this isn't always possible, I know that. A number of passengers will board a train with the means to pay but hope that the conductor doesn't get to them before their stop, and will make no attempt to pay at their destination, so the ones who do come and find you do seem more genuine.
However, I'll never treat anyone as a fare evader until they tell me as such, eg. they haven't got any money or a ticket and are only going to the next stop.

 

[island]

You might think that but East Midlands Trains have a differing view on the matter. http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/EMTrains/AboutUs/Penalty-Fares-Leaflet.pdf

Yes, I've seen that. Just because they say it doesn't mean it complies with the penalty fares rules.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, I've seen that. Just because they say it doesn't mean it complies with the penalty fares rules.

Is it not the case that penalty fare schemes have to comply with the rules in order to be authorised.......

If anyone was feeling a little bloody minded they could, of course, write to the MD of EMT copied to the appropriate DfT minister and also the relevant bit of DfT and ask him to explain exactly how his leaflet does comply with the penalty fares rules.....

 

[island]

The statement that you have to seek out a guard appears to be in the FAQ rather than in the penalty fares scheme. The scheme itself seems legal.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Actually it doesn't say you have to seek out a guard at all. It says you must approach a member of on board staff at the earliest opportunity. It could probably reasonably be argued that the earliest opportunity is when the member of staff comes down the train. I don't know how you can reasonably expect folk to go wandering all over a busy train looking to buy a ticket from somebody. That would be a farce. I suspect what this is trying to intimate is that just sitting in a seat waiting to be asked personally is not acceptable. Genuine Fare dodgers just tend to sit there and say nothing when the guard comes down shouting "Any tickets from X please?" or suchlike. I like it when Revenue do a full check right behind me. Ie I go down and do a call over, as soon as I leave the carriage Revenue come in, do a full check and find someone who just ignored me. In that case that person has not approached a member of staff or purchased a ticket at the first opportunity and would be questioned over the matter.

 

[reb0118]

Contrary to a lot of informed wisdom on this site when I am the guard in question you do have to come to my office for a ticket. In fact you will also be required to make an appointment (this can be made up to 18:00 the day previously by contacting my secretary - aka the wife). Please bring the right money as change is not always available.

As a special concession to RailUKforum members you will be able to approach me on the platform prior to boarding for a full range of anytime tickets.

 

[scotsman]

Such is the unique way in which heritage railways are funded, I have to sell the full range of tickets onboard. Although I rarely do, and even less regularly to I get a float!

 

[moonrakerz]

Is it not the case that penalty fare schemes have to comply with the rules in order to be authorised.......

If anyone was feeling a little bloody minded they could, of course, write to the MD of EMT copied to the appropriate DfT minister and also the relevant bit of DfT and ask him to explain exactly how his leaflet does comply with the penalty fares rules.....

Yes, I've seen that. Just because they say it doesn't mean it complies with the penalty fares rules.

Don't you just love it ? I've been rabbiting on for ages about how the TOCs either ignore or make up their own PF "rules " :roll::roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

Then you have services operated by 2 units without corridor connections. You could be waiting a long time to find a gaurd if you get on the wrong unit. Do EMT services made up of multiple sets have a gaurd in each one?

 

[yorkie]

Actually it doesn't say you have to seek out a guard at all. It says you must approach a member of on board staff at the earliest opportunity. It could probably reasonably be argued that the earliest opportunity is when the member of staff comes down the train. I don't know how you can reasonably expect folk to go wandering all over a busy train looking to buy a ticket from somebody. That would be a farce. I suspect what this is trying to intimate is that just sitting in a seat waiting to be asked personally is not acceptable. Genuine Fare dodgers just tend to sit there and say nothing when the guard comes down shouting "Any tickets from X please?" or suchlike. I like it when Revenue do a full check right behind me. Ie I go down and do a call over, as soon as I leave the carriage Revenue come in, do a full check and find someone who just ignored me. In that case that person has not approached a member of staff or purchased a ticket at the first opportunity and would be questioned over the matter.

Yes, you are right!

That page is littered with similar examples of heavy-handed and/or misleading wording by EMT.

Anyone reading that who is unfamiliar with railways will think that if their station is unstaffed they should buy online - from EMT's website, of course! :roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What happens if I travel beyond my destination?
It is your responsibility to buy any additional tickets you require to make your original ticket valid for your entire journey before you travel, if you do not you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

I thought you couldn't issue a PF for over-distance travelling?

 

[yorkie]

You can, but you can't for change of route or travelling on a time-restricted ticket when that ticket isn't valid. In both cases, the excess on board is the same fare as if bought on the ticket office. So that's probably what you are thinking of?

In the case of change of route, a one-way journey on a return ticket is half the difference in price, in the case of change of type, it's the full difference (or a new single if cheaper, which it would be for a journey like Manchester-London). [Note that change of route can, coincidentally result in a change of type, if appropriate, and a suitable example is given in The Manual]