May 2022 Timetable Changes

[hexagon789]

So TOCs should advertise a full pre-2020 timetable they can't actually run?

Take today for instance, all I saw on ScotRail's twitter was posts advertising hundreds of cancelled services all day long due to staff shortages.

They aren't alone.

There is no point in trying to run the same timetables as before when staffing shortages are not even permitting the current pruned timetables to be maintained.

Get staffing levels settled first, then review service levels.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

So TOCs should advertise a full pre-2020 timetable they can't actually run?

Take today for instance, all I saw on ScotRail's twitter was posts advertising hundreds of cancelled services all day long due to staff shortages.

They aren't alone.

There is no point in trying to run the same timetables as before when staffing shortages are not even permitting the current pruned timetables to be maintained.

Get staffing levels settled first, then review service levels.

Yes, but at the same time some of these timetable cuts have nothing to do with staffing levels and are for financial reasons.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Totally agree. Covid is being used as an excuse.

So you’d prefer a TOC to advertise a whole host of services they don’t have the crew to resource?

Covid isn’t an excuse, it’s a global pandemic that has thrown havoc with staff numbers.

A prime example of this is the airlines shed a load of staff, many of those staff took up roles on the railway, the airline market has now bounded back and many have quit to go back there. Training has been hard during the restrictions and now turnover is very high, you can’t plan more resources than you physically have.

Yes, but at the same time some of these timetable cuts have nothing to do with staffing levels and are for financial reasons.

The two are often interlinked, as staff numbers remain below establishment in many cases they can only be delivered with rest day work and that is not sustainable from a financial reason. Staffing levels and financial reasons aren’t entirely separate.

 

[Peterthegreat]

So you’d prefer a TOC to advertise a whole host of services they don’t have the crew to resource?

Covid isn’t an excuse, it’s a global pandemic that has thrown havoc with staff numbers.

A prime example of this is the airlines shed a load of staff, many of those staff took up roles on the railway, the airline market has now bounded back and many have quit to go back there. Training has been hard during the restrictions and now turnover is very high, you can’t plan more resources than you physically have.



The two are often interlinked, as staff numbers remain below establishment in many cases they can only be delivered with rest day work and that is not sustainable from a financial reason. Staffing levels and financial reasons

So is it staff shortages or financial?

 

[Peter0124]

So TOCs should advertise a full pre-2020 timetable they can't actually run?

Take today for instance, all I saw on ScotRail's twitter was posts advertising hundreds of cancelled services all day long due to staff shortages.

I wished Sunday was part of the working week.

 

[Goldfish62]

Isn't that something to do with a driver shortage? I wished Sunday was part of the working week.

It's particularly noticeable that SWR doesn't have any significant problems with cancellations at weekends, which are almost if not fully at pre-Covid service levels. Sunday is part of the working week.

 

[YorksLad12]

In honesty, I'm amazed at how little furore there has been about northern timetables being decimated.

There is. I helped write some of it. And it'll probably all kick off again tomorrow.

 

[driverd]

You can’t run a service if you haven’t got the resources. I can’t think of a TOC now that isn’t suffering greatly from staffing levels

Is this from inside knowledge or train use? At the moment, the vast majority of services cancelled "due to a lack of train crew" are due to RDW agreements being pulled. Certainly at my TOC, as mentioned below, nothing is substantially different to pre-covid. Indeed at another TOC local to me I've heard they currently have circa 90 surplus drivers - and this is a TOC that has serverly cut their service and are merrily blaming it on covid staff shortages.

So you’d prefer a TOC to advertise a whole host of services they don’t have the crew to resource?

No. I'd rather the TOCs/DfT be honest and tell everyone this is financial.

Covid isn’t an excuse, it’s a global pandemic that has thrown havoc with staff numbers.

Not true. I'll happily show you our depot, at close to full establishment and average sickness levels. We're near enough exactly where we were pre-pandemic.

Then you look at how the diagrams have changed. At some TOCs, services are being cut but diagrams not reduced, just left with big holes in them (eg: work a train, sit a few hours where a driver would have worked a cancelled train, work another train). This isn't going to save you staff because you still need to cover the same number of turns, you just have staff sat doing nothing for big chunks of those turns. If they wanted to free up human resource, services would have been cut based on train crew diagrams - not unit diagrams.

A prime example of this is the airlines shed a load of staff, many of those staff took up roles on the railway, the airline market has now bounded back and many have quit to go back there. Training has been hard during the restrictions and now turnover is very high, you can’t plan more resources than you physically have.

We're not an airline. No one left through covid, recruitment continued, there's no backlog, except route learning - most of which is lapsed route knowledge that was lost during the timetable reductions that mainly occurred post lockdown.

Hardly any staff are returning to the airlines because T&Cs are far worse - I have a colleague who was offered a substantial pay cut to go back and told them where to go! It's also fair to say that, even if all the ex-aircrew we took on left en-mass, that'd likely equate to less than 1% of our depot. Not that many came into operational roles.

Note also that at some places, services that were running reliably are being axed - this is now well over a year post lockdowns, and I've really not seen staff leaving in droves to go to the airlines, or anywhere else, for that matter. Should also add, training has been back in place for well over a year. At first this was in bubbles but is now basically back to normal.

The two are often interlinked, as staff numbers remain below establishment in many cases they can only be delivered with rest day work and that is not sustainable from a financial reason. Staffing levels and financial reasons aren’t entirely separate.

This has always been the way. It's not new. What is new is a reluctance to pay for it.

So is it staff shortages or financial?

If I haven't made it explicitly clear - financial. The only two questions, to my mind, are where is this going, and why?

It could just be incompetence and the DfT seeing an opportunity to sort a lot of pre-existing issues out (eg: training backlogs etc), without having to pay for RDW in the meantime. I just think this is so backwards, if this is the case - customers need to be at the heart of the industry right now, not using a cheap excuse to get staff trained at the expense of delivering a useful service - which a train every 2 hours or less, in 2022, simply isn't.

 

[Some guy]

It’s not even 8am yet and there’s already loads of cancellations especially on the TPE Manchester-Scotland services loads cut short or not running at all. It’s a disgrace they went back to a full timetable when they couldn’t run a reduced timetable properly.

 

[driverd]

It’s not even 8am yet and there’s already loads of cancellations especially on the TPE Manchester-Scotland services loads cut short or not running at all. It’s a disgrace they went back to a full timetable when they couldn’t run a reduced timetable properly.

TPE aren't back to a full timetable, it's broadly the same as was. On the North transpennine, everything seems to be running fine. I suspect its a Scottish route specific issue.

 

[Peterthegreat]

TPE aren't back to a full timetable, it's broadly the same as was. On the North transpennine, everything seems to be running fine. I suspect its a Scottish route specific issue.

Except Hull to Manchester
07.xx
08.xx
10.xx
11.xx
All cancelled throughout.

 

[Bantamzen]

So you’d prefer a TOC to advertise a whole host of services they don’t have the crew to resource?

Covid isn’t an excuse, it’s a global pandemic that has thrown havoc with staff numbers.

But to the general public it is increasingly seen as exactly this. The railway industry spent months telling us not to use them, then when TOCs started to encourage people back they started to cut services, making rail use for many just that little bit harder. Oh and there were the price hikes, so "Trains are dangerous for covid" + less services + above inflation price rises = Less confidence in the railway network. And that will lead to fewer passengers, less profits and yes job cuts in the industry. And yet the industry, & its associated unions seem hell bent on continuing to make things more difficult.

This isn't a go at the individual staff BTW, but the whole industry needs to think long & hard about the consequences of this, especially under a Conservative government now looking to claw back hundreds of billions.

A prime example of this is the airlines shed a load of staff, many of those staff took up roles on the railway, the airline market has now bounded back and many have quit to go back there. Training has been hard during the restrictions and now turnover is very high, you can’t plan more resources than you physically have.

I'm going to hazard that many of these staff where not train crews, or certainly not drivers? You are right in that you can't plan with more than you have, but the industry has had over 2 years to get to grips with the situation.

 

[jfollows]

Although not Northern, the local "press" is kicking off (https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/new...IYA-mail=2f183681-a4c7-4785-9256-2ced2b372675) about the cancellation of the 08:02 Macclesfield-Manchester, which isn't totally unreasonable, Avanti is happy to take revenue for the flow but cancels the service (it will restart 12 September, it's the 06:15 Euston-Manchester) in the current timetable, and it represented a significant percentage of rush hour seats for the journey. Comparison with Wilmslow is also made - I can't deny the service from Wilmslow is miles better in comparison, although the nice 07:27 Pendolino to Manchester was cancelled today (it runs empty Longsight-Crewe to form the service before then working 1A12 08:15 Piccadilly-Euston which is also cancelled today).

Rush hour train service from Macclesfield to Manchester is cut as fears of overcrowding grow

The 8.02am commuter train service from Macclesfield to Manchester has been cut as of today

A drastic cut in the morning commuter train service from Macclesfield has led to fears of overcrowding on the journey to work.

The 8.02am service from Macclesfield to Manchester, which has 11 carriages, has now been removed from the timetable as of today (May 16) because of staff shortages.

Although operator Avanti West Coast says this is only a temporary measure until September, one user predicts it will have a big effect and MP David Rutley will meet with rail bosses. The alternative services for those wanting to arrive in Manchester between 8am and 9am are the 7.50 or the 8.19.

And commuter Robert Fickling says these trains only have three carriages each - meaning that in effect morning rush hour capacity will be reduced by two thirds, from 17 carriages to six.

He said: “As a regular rail user as I was surprised if not disturbed (by the news). This service provides a high capacity service of 11 coaches in length and from personal observation has been recently approximately 50 per cent full on arrival into Manchester.

“Given that national rail demand recovery has been reported by the Department of Transport as running at about two thirds of pre-Covid I struggle to see how such a cut in capacity can be justified. Especially the crowding which it will lead to on adjacent services.”

The 8.19 service is often full and standing room only from Bramhall, later in the route, from student use, added Robert. A notice at Macclesfield station informs passengers of the change.

The service originates from London Euston at 6.15am, also calling at Stoke. In an email to Mr Rutley, Robert has asked for the matter to be ‘urgently addressed’ with Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Transport.

The email points out that at nearby Wilmslow there are five trains - with a total of 26 coaches - taking passengers to Manchester for between 8am and 9am.

Robert added: “Given that Macclesfield station is busier than Wilmslow it is hard to fathom how the Department of Transport is justifying such a poor provision for Macclesfield.”

An Avanti spokesman said: “The 08.02 Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly train has been withdrawn until September as a temporary measure due to staff shortages. The train is planned to return in September and our timetable is subject to regular review in collaboration with stakeholders from government, Network Rail and industry partners.”

Mr Rutley said: “It is very disappointing to see this peak time train being removed temporarily from the timetable. This will create real inconvenience and disruption for many local passengers on a key fast train service to Manchester.

“I have written to the managing director of Avanti West Coast, and will be speaking with the senior management team to seek the earliest possible return of this service, as a priority.”

He said: “As a regular rail user as I was surprised if not disturbed (by the news). This service provides a high capacity service of 11 coaches in length and from personal observation has been recently approximately 50 per cent full on arrival into Manchester.

“Given that national rail demand recovery has been reported by the Department of Transport as running at about two thirds of pre-Covid I struggle to see how such a cut in capacity can be justified. Especially the crowding which it will lead to on adjacent services.”

The 8.19 service is often full and standing room only from Bramhall, later in the route, from student use, added Robert. A notice at Macclesfield station informs passengers of the change.

The service originates from London Euston at 6.15am, also calling at Stoke. In an email to Mr Rutley, Robert has asked for the matter to be ‘urgently addressed’ with Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Transport.

The email points out that at nearby Wilmslow there are five trains - with a total of 26 coaches - taking passengers to Manchester for between 8am and 9am.

Robert added: “Given that Macclesfield station is busier than Wilmslow it is hard to fathom how the Department of Transport is justifying such a poor provision for Macclesfield.”

An Avanti spokesman said: “The 08.02 Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly train has been withdrawn until September as a temporary measure due to staff shortages. The train is planned to return in September and our timetable is subject to regular review in collaboration with stakeholders from government, Network Rail and industry partners.”

Mr Rutley said: “It is very disappointing to see this peak time train being removed temporarily from the timetable. This will create real inconvenience and disruption for many local passengers on a key fast train service to Manchester.

“I have written to the managing director of Avanti West Coast, and will be speaking with the senior management team to seek the earliest possible return of this service, as a priority.”

[The ORR figures for entries and exits shows about 16% more for Macclesfield than for Wilmslow in 2020-21, Table 1410 - Passenger entries and exits and interchanges by station.]

 

[Some guy]

TPE aren't back to a full timetable, it's broadly the same as was. On the North transpennine, everything seems to be running fine. I suspect its a Scottish route specific issue.

They nearly are all they need is some extra late night services. If you look at hull there’s no service between 9 and 12 so it’s not just a ‘Scottish route’ issue

 

[driverd]

Except Hull to Manchester
07.xx
08.xx
10.xx
11.xx
All cancelled throughout.

Apologies - these weren't showing as cancelled when I checked realtime trains.

They nearly are all they need is some extra late night services. If you look at hull there’s no service between 9 and 12 so it’s not just a ‘Scottish route’ issue

Thats not true at all. Pre-coivd there was 1tph:
Newcastle - Liverpool
Newcastle - Manchester Airport
Redcar - Manchester Airport
Scarborough - Liverpool
Hull - Manchester
Leeds - Huddersfield stopper
Wakefield Kirkgate - Manchester stopper (yes, this just made it into the timetable before covid struck)

Now there is:
Newcastle - Liverpool
Redcar - Manchester Airport
Scarborough - York
Hull - Manchester Piccadilly
Leeds - Huddersfield (Stopper)
Huddersfield - Manchester Piccadilly (Stopper)

It's a massive service reduction on the core North transpennine express section - they've lost 40% of fast trains. That's before we even consider the loss of services like the proposed Edinburgh run.

 

[Watershed]

Apologies - these weren't showing as cancelled when I checked realtime trains.

Quite a few not showing as cancelled because they've been 'P-coded', i.e. removed from the timetable the night before. A very unhelpful practice for passengers (who end up wondering why their booked/normal train has disappeared without trace), quite apart from the fact that the punctuality/reliability statistics are completely unrepresentative as a result.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Quite a few not showing as cancelled because they've been 'P-coded', i.e. removed from the timetable the night before. A very unhelpful practice for passengers (who end up wondering why their booked/normal train has disappeared without trace), quite apart from the fact that the punctuality/reliability statistics are completely unrepresentative as a result.

Unhelpful? It's an absolute disgrace. The DfT should be ashamed of sanctioning this (or maybe even instigating it).

 

[takno]

Quite a few not showing as cancelled because they've been 'P-coded', i.e. removed from the timetable the night before. A very unhelpful practice for passengers (who end up wondering why their booked/normal train has disappeared without trace), quite apart from the fact that the punctuality/reliability statistics are completely unrepresentative as a result.

That does seem to have become the default way of doing it on the operational systems. It makes sense from the point of view of operating the railway, but it's a bit frustrating if you're looking at a live-performance tracking site like RTT or Traksy, which are taking an operational view of the railway but showing it to people who also need to understand the regular timetable. Presumably (and this is only a guess) the NationalRail data feeds are a bit more informative about what happened.

I think I'm going to start recording the date various events appeared in the operational timetable so that I can show planned variations vs short-notice cancellations appropriately.

 

[johntea]

09:16 Knottingley - Leeds via Castleford still missing in action I see, I’m sure that was showing up in the May timetables!

Although thankfully they’ve restored the 22:03 from Leeds!

 

[Watershed]

That does seem to have become the default way of doing it on the operational systems. It makes sense from the point of view of operating the railway, but it's a bit frustrating if you're looking at a live-performance tracking site like RTT or Traksy, which are taking an operational view of the railway but showing it to people who also need to understand the regular timetable. Presumably (and this is only a guess) the NationalRail data feeds are a bit more informative about what happened.

I think I'm going to start recording the date various events appeared in the operational timetable so that I can show planned variations vs short-notice cancellations appropriately.

Timetablehistory.com already records this data.

 

[Greybeard33]

Although not Northern, the local "press" is kicking off (https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/new...IYA-mail=2f183681-a4c7-4785-9256-2ced2b372675) about the cancellation of the 08:02 Macclesfield-Manchester, which isn't totally unreasonable, Avanti is happy to take revenue for the flow but cancels the service (it will restart 12 September, it's the 06:15 Euston-Manchester) in the current timetable, and it represented a significant percentage of rush hour seats for the journey. Comparison with Wilmslow is also made - I can't deny the service from Wilmslow is miles better in comparison, although the nice 07:27 Pendolino to Manchester was cancelled today (it runs empty Longsight-Crewe to form the service before then working 1A12 08:15 Piccadilly-Euston which is also cancelled today).

[The ORR figures for entries and exits shows about 16% more for Macclesfield than for Wilmslow in 2020-21, Table 1410 - Passenger entries and exits and interchanges by station.]

The Manchester Evening News also has a story about this cancellation, but from the Stoke perspective (07:45 Stoke to Manchester)

Disgusted Manchester commuter told to pay £800 more after train cancelled

He has slammed Avanti West Coast

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

It quotes a Stoke commuter who claims he will have to pay an additional £800 for an any operator Stoke to Manchester annual season in order to use a Northern service instead. He currently has an Avanti-only season that has 5 months left to run, but the next Avanti service would not get him to work on time.

"Those with Avanti-only season tickets are basically stuck because you’ve either got to get a later train and be late for work or you’ve got to find £800.

"The problem is if you’ve got your season ticket you would have to get a refund and then buy an any train season ticket, but you won’t get all your money back because there’s an administration fee. On a season ticket, you get the last two months on your ticket for free and they take that off straight away.

"I’ve got five months on my ticket left, but I’ll only get three months plus the admin fee off of it back. That’s not fair considering you've just changed the season ticket. The reason I bought the season ticket is because it operated on the hours I needed to get to work. It seems very unfair."

 

[Watershed]

The Manchester Evening News also has a story about this cancellation, but from the Stoke perspective (07:45 Stoke to Manchester)

Disgusted Manchester commuter told to pay £800 more after train cancelled

He has slammed Avanti West Coast

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

It quotes a Stoke commuter who claims he will have to pay an additional £800 for an any operator Stoke to Manchester annual season in order to use a Northern service instead. He currently has an Avanti-only season that has 5 months left to run, but the next Avanti service would not get him to work on time.

Given the circumstances (there are now no Avanti services from Stoke to Manchester which arrive before 9am) I think he would have a reasonable case for breach of contract. A season ticket is intended for people who commute and hence are likely to want to arrive at their destination by 9am; whilst timetable changes are part and parcel of rail travel, a change of this significance is not something which can be imposed without consequences.

If I were the commuter in question, I would expect Avanti to either compensate me for the additional fare I now have to pay to get an Any Permitted season, or arrange ticket acceptance on other operators (at least in the morning). However I very much doubt that Avanti will be doing either. The fact that they mention the reinstatement of the service in September, despite the fact that they know full well it is likely to be the same timetable until December at the earliest, is very misleading.

 

[route101]

The TPE Scottish services have never really got off the ground even before Covid there was issues.

 

[jfollows]

Given the circumstances (there are now no Avanti services from Stoke to Manchester which arrive before 9am) I think he would have a reasonable case for breach of contract. A season ticket is intended for people who commute and hence are likely to want to arrive at their destination by 9am; whilst timetable changes are part and parcel of rail travel, a change of this significance is not something which can be imposed without consequences.

If I were the commuter in question, I would expect Avanti to either compensate me for the additional fare I now have to pay to get an Any Permitted season, or arrange ticket acceptance on other operators (at least in the morning). However I very much doubt that Avanti will be doing either. The fact that they mention the reinstatement of the service in September, despite the fact that they know full well it is likely to be the same timetable until December at the earliest, is very misleading.

Yes, I agree, and don't expect Avanti to do this either.
They're continuing something started by Virgin and I ran a "thought experiment" myself as to whether I'd use the cheaper fares from Wilmslow if I got a job in Manchester and I decided that I wouldn't. But from Wilmslow there are early Avanti starters from Crewe around 06:30 and 07:30 before the first arrival from London at 08:30 whereas there's nothing like this from Stoke. However from Stoke their season tickets are 23% cheaper than the "any permitted" ones, and this represents an annual saving of >£800, so I can see why someone who has reasonably predictable travel patterns and wants to save money might do so.
As you say, if Avanti sells season tickets for use on its services then it really needs to provide services on which the tickets can be used, and in this case they aren't doing, not for the main use people expect season tickets to be used for, commuting to work.

[EDIT In my case I would expect to want to travel via Manchester Airport or break my journey at Heaton Chapel on some occasions, and sometimes come home on the last train, none of which would be possible with an Avanti-only season.]

 

[subk2010]

Is Scotrail service to Newcastle suspended in the new timetable?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is Scotrail service to Newcastle suspended in the new timetable?

It’s been permanently split at Carlisle, and stock interworking has finished. It’s been mentioned a few times already in this thread.

It’s arguable that it wasn’t a Scotrail service anyway, more about limitations of passenger information displays.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Although not Northern, the local "press" is kicking off (https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/new...IYA-mail=2f183681-a4c7-4785-9256-2ced2b372675) about the cancellation of the 08:02 Macclesfield-Manchester, which isn't totally unreasonable, Avanti is happy to take revenue for the flow but cancels the service (it will restart 12 September, it's the 06:15 Euston-Manchester) in the current timetable, and it represented a significant percentage of rush hour seats for the journey. Comparison with Wilmslow is also made - I can't deny the service from Wilmslow is miles better in comparison, although the nice 07:27 Pendolino to Manchester was cancelled today (it runs empty Longsight-Crewe to form the service before then working 1A12 08:15 Piccadilly-Euston which is also cancelled today).



[The ORR figures for entries and exits shows about 16% more for Macclesfield than for Wilmslow in 2020-21, Table 1410 - Passenger entries and exits and interchanges by station.]

Really quite embarrassing for this Robert guy that he wrote to the press about his favoured time train being cancelled. Very entitled attitude indeed. I’m surprised the journalists didn’t laugh at him.

 

[Chiltern006]

Also worth noting that SWR have put a 444 on an Alton diagram and a 450 on a Chessington diagram

EMR also have (technically) a Skegness to Liverpool service, joining the Norwich portion at Nottingham

 

[berneyarms]

Really quite embarrassing for this Robert guy that he wrote to the press about his favoured time train being cancelled. Very entitled attitude indeed. I’m surprised the journalists didn’t laugh at him.

What is wrong with his complaint?

It is not unreasonable to expect that the sole service operated by a TOC on a particular route that arrives at its destination prior to 09:00 would continue to operate, and if it were cancelled, that the TOC concerned would facilitate an alternative that is at zero cost to the end user.

AWC were clearly trying to encourage people to use their trains by their pricing policy, and most commuters do work normal office hours.

He’s being asked to stump up an additional GBP 800, through no fault of his own, at a time when people’s bank balances are being squeezed to the limit.

I don’t think it unreasonable to expect that such ticket holders be allowed use Northern services during the period that the train doesn’t operate with no penalty.

 

[driverd]

Really quite embarrassing for this Robert guy that he wrote to the press about his favoured time train being cancelled. Very entitled attitude indeed. I’m surprised the journalists didn’t laugh at him.

Also can't help but disagree here. As explained by everyone above - given the circumstances the chap is in a real bind and I think this situation is very symptomatic of a problem across numerous TOCs. There will be plenty of people in a similar unfortunate situation and they need to speak up, or risk not being heard.