First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[stevenedin]

The X38 is operated by Larbert

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Livingston were due some new buses to replace the older stock on the X38 since the Streetlites don’t seem to be very suitable/reliable. Perhaps they may go electric since First pledged not to order anymore diesel buses.

Livingston don't operate the X38, Larbert do. From a passenger point of view the B7RLEs are far superior than the Streetlites: no jerky retarder, no vibrating at idle and a much smoother ride overall (bar the rattles in the cab area which most Eclipses are prone to). The only downside is the poor interior quality - threadbare seats and manky floors

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Apologise! I do wonder if Hydrogen Streetdecks may be on the cards for FSE with a lot of their Scania Omnidekkas needing replaced. The Twitter picture is a FSE branded Streetdeck perhaps may be nothing to go by but interesting and would make sense.

I do also think the X38 will be on the cards for new buses.

 

[stevenedin]

That would be great to have these hydrogen street decks. I’ve been on them in Aberdeen and they are nice. I just hope that Livingston gets some as well although if that happens probably the remaining E400MMCs will probably head to Bannockburn/Balfron/Larbert.

The Edinburgh LEZ may help First West Lothian get newer or upgraded buses.

 

[PaulMc7]

The thing is that it’s better having too many buses than too little. They just need to work together to get people out of cars. That’s the problem. They need reliable frequent bus services from all bus operators to be able to entice anyone from their cars. West Lothian Council have their work cut out for them. The bus operators have provided the buses it’s just up to the council or government to do more to help promote that.

The council and government don't do anywhere near enough and it shows everywhere to be honest. West Lothian does seem very car centric but if you do enough you can always get people onto buses especially now with all of the train issues. Better funding of the under 22 free travel, better funding of concession travel and more encouragement of getting people into driver jobs is needed though.

If they can fix the last thing in particular you immediately have a much more reliable network. A ticket for both operators combined would be great but I don't think that would happen because of the complications working out who should get what revenue of it isn't easy. You'd definitely have issues if say someone used 10 buses a week but then 8 First 2 Lothian etc. A 50/50 split wouldn't always be the best option.

 

[overthewater]

You can find as much money as you want for the free travel schemes, however if the routes are still crapm people will not make the switch...

 

[stevenedin]

The council and government don't do anywhere near enough and it shows everywhere to be honest. West Lothian does seem very car centric but if you do enough you can always get people onto buses especially now with all of the train issues. Better funding of the under 22 free travel, better funding of concession travel and more encouragement of getting people into driver jobs is needed though.

If they can fix the last thing in particular you immediately have a much more reliable network. A ticket for both operators combined would be great but I don't think that would happen because of the complications working out who should get what revenue of it isn't easy. You'd definitely have issues if say someone used 10 buses a week but then 8 First 2 Lothian etc. A 50/50 split wouldn't always be the best option.

There is a ticket for all operators just now. It’s called One Ticket

 

[PaulMc7]

There is a ticket for all operators just now. It’s called One Ticket

Thank you for the information. Is it well advertised? Not been in Edinburgh for a while now but don't think I've ever seen anything about it before. Price doesn't look dreadful to be honest.

 

[Siemens Trains]

A ticket for both operators combined would be great but I don't think that would happen because of the complications working out who should get what revenue of it isn't easy. You'd definitely have issues if say someone used 10 buses a week but then 8 First 2 Lothian etc. A 50/50 split wouldn't always be the best option.

In addition to One-Ticket opportunities for those who pay their own fares, note that a lot of passengers no longer need to personally pay at all by virtue of their age or some other factor. However the complexities that bus companies introduce themselves can be difficult to understand and often it's easier just to drive instead of trying to work out various bus route possibilities.

Is it well advertised? Not been in Edinburgh for a while now but don't think I've ever seen anything about it before.

Previously advertised extensively on Edinburgh Council's bus shelters, although not sure if that continues to this day. It used to be quite difficult to buy as you needed to visit a PayPoint shop, but maybe convenience is improving with the app option. Now works with the tram too.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Livingston were due some new buses to replace the older stock on the X38 since the Streetlites don’t seem to be very suitable/reliable. Perhaps they may go electric since First pledged not to order anymore diesel buses.

Not enough range on electric buses.

 

[PaulMc7]

In addition to One-Ticket opportunities for those who pay their own fares, note that a lot of passengers no longer need to personally pay at all by virtue of their age or some other factor. However the complexities that bus companies introduce themselves can be difficult to understand and often it's easier just to drive instead of trying to work out various bus route possibilities.

Previously advertised extensively on Edinburgh Council's bus shelters, although not sure if that continues to this day. It used to be quite difficult to buy as you needed to visit a PayPoint shop, but maybe convenience is improving with the app option. Now works with the tram too.

I agree on working out possibilities. It's definitely quite common that people don't plan out journeys at all or look into their options for public transport. So little effort and time required for it though. Apps are definitely the way forward at the minute which is why operators really need to focus more on them. I know how dreadful First's is pretty much all of the time from how much I use the bus in Glasgow for work and leisure. It doesn't seem to function any better in West Lothian or Stirling/Falkirk etc especially as there's been days where the timetables of certain services just seem to disappear on it.

 

[stevenedin]

Thank you for the information. Is it well advertised? Not been in Edinburgh for a while now but don't think I've ever seen anything about it before. Price doesn't look dreadful to be honest.

I see it inside some Lothian buses and I think First buses on the roof above the windows downstairs. It isn’t widely advertised as much as it used to be though.
The app does make it easier nowadays to use but they don’t sell it per month only 28 days.
I always wonder if the bus companies make less money using these as even though they are counted, I can’t imagine that the full fare is reimbursed to the bus operators.

 

[PaulMc7]

I see it inside some Lothian buses and I think First buses on the roof above the windows downstairs. It isn’t widely advertised as much as it used to be though.
The app does make it easier nowadays to use but they don’t sell it per month only 28 days.
I always wonder if the bus companies make less money using these as even though they are counted, I can’t imagine that the full fare is reimbursed to the bus operators.

That's the main issue to be fair. If the reimbursement rate for all tickets outside of paying customers was better it solves a lot of issues and might get more people onto buses.

 

[stevenedin]

I agree on working out possibilities. It's definitely quite common that people don't plan out journeys at all or look into their options for public transport. So little effort and time required for it though. Apps are definitely the way forward at the minute which is why operators really need to focus more on them. I know how dreadful First's is pretty much all of the time from how much I use the bus in Glasgow for work and leisure. It doesn't seem to function any better in West Lothian or Stirling/Falkirk etc especially as there's been days where the timetables of certain services just seem to disappear on it.

I agree. The app is good in that it shows capacity but only some of the time. Also it doesn’t let you see what time you get to each stop when it gives you a list of stops when selecting the route you want to see. If these were added it would make it better and also it should be clearer when it is showing just timetable times and not live

That's the main issue to be fair. If the reimbursement rate for all tickets outside of paying customers was better it solves a lot of issues and might get more people onto buses.

I think that’s where possibly having a governing body similar to Transport for London comes in handy. Maybe something could be created for Edinburgh and the Lothians that isn’t biased towards Lothian Group like Transport for Edinburgh was.

 

[PaulMc7]

I agree. The app is good in that it shows capacity but only some of the time. Also it doesn’t let you see what time you get to each stop when it gives you a list of stops when selecting the route you want to see. If these were added it would make it better and also it should be clearer when it is showing just timetable times and not live

The problem is the accuracy of the count too. It's heavily reliant on the driver managing to keep count of everyone getting off. I've seen it plenty of times in Glasgow where the bus apparently only has like 2 people on it and in reality it's closer to full. I noticed that the cancellation feature appeared a bit in Stirling last night but that's the first time I've noticed it and it only seemed to be 51/52 showing as cancelled. There was other services that looked cancelled on the app but weren't shown as cancelled.

There's also plenty of times where the bus runs but doesn't track. A lot really needs fixed.

I agree. The app is good in that it shows capacity but only some of the time. Also it doesn’t let you see what time you get to each stop when it gives you a list of stops when selecting the route you want to see. If these were added it would make it better and also it should be clearer when it is showing just timetable times and not live


I think that’s where possibly having a governing body similar to Transport for London comes in handy. Maybe something could be created for Edinburgh and the Lothians that isn’t biased towards Lothian Group like Transport for Edinburgh was.

This is the thing. A lot of people think everything public transport needs to be public owned. In reality it doesn't but just needs to be regulated with certain rules regarding notification of cancellations and service changes etc.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I do wonder if Hydrogen Streetdecks may be on the cards for FSE with a lot of their Scania Omnidekkas needing replaced.

Larbert’s Omnidekkas are getting replaced but not by that

 

[stevenedin]

Larbert’s Omnidekkas are getting replaced but not by that

What are they getting replaced with?

 

[Observer]

Livingston don't operate the X38, Larbert do. From a passenger point of view the B7RLEs are far superior than the Streetlites: no jerky retarder, no vibrating at idle and a much smoother ride overall (bar the rattles in the cab area which most Eclipses are prone to). The only downside is the poor interior quality - threadbare seats and manky floors

Before the StreetLites came, I had been told by a driver who worked there at the time that they were supposed to all get refurbished inside with leather seats and all that.

Obviously plans changed. Would have been a much better idea than StreetLites being bought for services they weren't capable of running. Who knows what they'll replace the X38 with when it's time.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I had been told before the StreetLites came by a driver who worked there at the time that they were supposed to all get refurbished inside with leather seats and all that.

Obviously plans changed. Would have been a much better idea than StreetLites being bought for services they weren't capable of running. Who knows what they'll replace the X38 with when it's time.

Something from ADL

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not enough range on electric buses.

This is not necessarily the case, it depends how you operate them. There's a batch of Yutong E12s away to enter service in Wales later this year on a route that is 55 miles long. With that said many electric single deckers will be too tall to fit under the low bridge in Linlithgow.

Apologise! I do wonder if Hydrogen Streetdecks may be on the cards for FSE with a lot of their Scania Omnidekkas needing replaced. The Twitter picture is a FSE branded Streetdeck perhaps may be nothing to go by but interesting and would make sense.

I do also think the X38 will be on the cards for new buses.

It's just a stock picture used by marketing since 2020. Hydrogen Streetdecks wouldn't be suitable replacements as they're too low capacity for most of the school contracts and it would require external funding which i can't see happening given FSE has seen next to nothing when it comes to the exhaust retrofitting and zebra schemes.

B8RLE Evoras would probably be the best vehicles for the X38, or 6 cylinder Wright GB Hawks, but neither are types that First have previously bought.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

This is not necessarily the case, it depends how you operate them. There's a batch of Yutong E12s away to enter service in Wales later this year on a route that is 55 miles long. With that said many electric single deckers will be too tall to fit under the low bridge in Linlithgow.

It's just a stock picture used by marketing since 2020. Hydrogen Streetdecks wouldn't be suitable replacements as they're too low capacity for most of the school contracts and it would require external funding which i can't see happening given FSE has seen next to nothing when it comes to the exhaust retrofitting and zebra schemes.

B8RLE Evoras would probably be the best vehicles for the X38, or 6 cylinder Wright GB Hawks, but neither are types that First have previously bought.

Those would be appropriate given that they’ve been dealing with Daimler engines Streetlites for years now.

 

[PassengerAY3]

Hey Folks

I am writing to ask if anyone has properly notice that local bus services from Larbert depot have declined? I was told by a few reasonable drivers they had lost a fair few drivers potentially 20+ and the few guys that came up from London have went home . Can anyone confirm or deny this speculative information?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Hey Folks

I am writing to ask if anyone has properly notice that local bus services from Larbert depot have declined? I was told by a few reasonable drivers they had lost a fair few drivers potentially 20+ and the few guys that came up from London have went home . Can anyone confirm or deny this speculative information?

Speculation? They simply don’t have enough drivers, fact, I worked there for only a few weeks myself before issues with management.

The training school is getting drivers in the door but only in dribbles and even then there not retaining the ones they do train or ones they already have.

No one is willing to do the job, poorly buses, toxic management, a dilapidated depot…the list goes on.

Pay is no longer the significant issue as of course there are many other bus firms who pay less, if pay were the defining factor in this issue drivers would be coming in there droves to work for First.

 

[PaulMc7]

It would be nice if they used the cancellation feature all of the time to be fair if things definitely won't improve like we predict. Balfron and Bannockburn definitely have it as I've spotted evening X10s and 51/52s showing as cancelled on it now on the odd occasion.

 

[stevenedin]

It would help. I was waiting on the X22 yesterday and it never turned up despite saying due and live.

 

[LiviCrazy]

It would help. I was waiting on the X22 yesterday and it never turned up despite saying due and live.

I agree. It saying Live then not turning up is frustrating. It used to just leave non-tracking buses as a time rather than Xmins which was clearer.

Most annoying thing just now which I wish they would try and sort is 2-3 consecutive journeys being cancelled on a half hourly route. Not sure if they could do something to reroute a bus from another route (ie from The Centre) or something but not sure if rules would allow it.

 

[PaulMc7]

I agree. It saying Live then not turning up is frustrating. It used to just leave non-tracking buses as a time rather than Xmins which was clearer.

Most annoying thing just now which I wish they would try and sort is 2-3 consecutive journeys being cancelled on a half hourly route. Not sure if they could do something to reroute a bus from another route (ie from The Centre) or something but not sure if rules would allow it.

They need to at least cut the X25 to every 30 mins and get rid of the 26A. Not sure what else they can really do though

 

[LiviCrazy]

They need to at least cut the X25 to every 30 mins and get rid of the 26A. Not sure what else they can really do though

Can they not at least work live a bit more. When they see 3-4 cancelled in a row can they not turn something short to add the coverage back in on the day.

I know it’s not entirely within their control but having almost two hours between journeys for a half hourly service is awful.

I’ve stuck with them for value and the fact that (at full service) they provide me a better network, but my hand is being forced to switch more often now.

Another question, First specific but also related to industry as a whole. When putting drivers through training are drivers not required to work for the company for a certain length of time or have to pay back cost of training? Quite common in other industries to have to work a year or have cost deducted from final pay.

 

[mb88]

I’ve stuck with them for value and the fact that (at full service) they provide me a better network, but my hand is being forced to switch more often now.

Another question, First specific but also related to industry as a whole. When putting drivers through training are drivers not required to work for the company for a certain length of time or have to pay back cost of training? Quite common in other industries to have to work a year or have cost deducted from final pay.

Yes. I’m not aware of any companies that don’t have some sort of training bond written into the contracts of people who gain their license through that company. Usually the amount to be paid back decreases with length of service and usually ends after 12-18 months. Whether or not they do actually chase people up for the money is another matter.

 

[ScotRail158725]

They need to at least cut the X25 to every 30 mins and get rid of the 26A. Not sure what else they can really do though

the X25 and 26/A are from my experience the busiest routes. The best way to save would be shorten either the 26 or 26A to the Centre