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When electric vehicles start to be taxed, should BEVs be charged by weight?

Should BEVs be taxed by weight class?


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LOL The Irony

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With the further rise of electric vehicles, it is inevitable that they will start to pay vehicle tax at some point in the near future. And with Bentley wanting to raise the maximum weight for a class c license from it's current 3.5 ton limit, due to their cars already being quite heavy, once their battery electric models are released, they will be close to touching that limit. This however, is just the tip of the BEV iceberg, with them being notoriously heavy vehicles due to all the batteries they have to carry.

So I raise this question; should they be taxed on weight?
 
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Bletchleyite

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No.

I would abolish VED entirely and tax motoring based on where it does most harm and where public transport is most viable - in urban areas - by abolishing all free parking within "city limits", primarily, including on private land. Let rural people drive EVs around rural areas tax-free as there's often no sensible alternative, but push them to use P&R into cities. You can't usefully drive cars without parking them somewhere.

Weight affects tyre particulate emissions a bit but this to me isn't enough to push taxation that way.
 

4COR

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Taxing by weight would make sense if it covered the cost of road repair - road wear/damage goes as something like the 4th power of mass. However, as we know, VED doesn't "pay for the roads" (we all do through general taxation), and it's LGV/HGVs that cause most wear.

It might dissuade people from buying grossly oversized cars such as the Bentleys (massively heavy, use a huge amount of energy to propel around compared to something lighter and more efficient), but then, if you can afford a Bentley, you probably don't care too much about the extra cost of VED...
 

Domh245

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Weight would be a sensible way for banding a future road pricing tax/scheme, as heavy cars will do more damage to the road and need more energy (in addition to the tyre particulates)
 

4COR

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Weight would be a sensible way for banding a future road pricing tax/scheme, as heavy cars will do more damage to the road and need more energy (in addition to the tyre particulates)

Though this posts an interesting problem on how to scale it for private use vehicles. HGV rates already scale with mass, and to some extent, if they have "road-friendly suspension", but the scale is nowhere near the 4th power scaling, and at the lower end of HGV weights, the VED is lower than the higher rates of private vehicles...
 

4COR

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But they're doing an important service whilst damaging the road. Stacey can just as easily take the kids to school in a Golf instead of a Range Rover.

You'll not find me arguing with you here. It just offers an oddity in the pricing that's all. VED for lower weight HGVs is remarkably low in comparison to high CO2 g/km cars, though there are obviously many extra costs with running the former.
 

cactustwirly

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No.

I would abolish VED entirely and tax motoring based on where it does most harm and where public transport is most viable - in urban areas - by abolishing all free parking within "city limits", primarily, including on private land. Let rural people drive EVs around rural areas tax-free as there's often no sensible alternative, but push them to use P&R into cities. You can't usefully drive cars without parking them somewhere.

Weight affects tyre particulate emissions a bit but this to me isn't enough to push taxation that way.

New research suggests that tyre particulates are far more polluting than emissions from a modern ICE vehicle

 

Bletchleyite

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New research suggests that tyre particulates are far more polluting than emissions from a modern ICE vehicle


A Twitter thread I found on this suggests, and I agree with it, that this article is trying, as the Graun so often does, to make a point through omission. The omission in this case is that while the overall pollution emitted is higher, it includes all particulates of all sizes, whereas only smaller ones are harmful to the human lung - the nose hair is very good at filtering out the larger ones (as anyone who's blown their nose after using the Tube will know).

However even were it true my point stands. All urban car use should be discouraged whether electric or not, on the principle that cities should be places for people and not vehicles, while in rural areas the car is overall probably the most effective solution as provision of affordable, quality public transport is non-viable. I would also make my suggested change for ICEs. Making all parking chargeable is much easier now things like pay by phone are possible; you don't need to work out if it's viable to provide a meter or not.
 

SynthD

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You could write out a list of problems caused by weight and work out which ones are due what penalty. One issue not yet mentioned is braking distance, and likelihood of not stopping in time. Yes, tax the heavier cars. They are still Chelsea tractors in that they are prepared to drive Tarquin to Wales without a stop.
 

507020

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But they're doing an important service whilst damaging the road. Stacey can just as easily take the kids to school in a Golf instead of a Range Rover.
That service was and can be done just as effectively by the railway, with horses and carts replaced by small battery electric vans rather than HGVs.
 

507020

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It really can't. Rail isn't flexible enough and wouldn't have the capacity to take all HGVs off the roads.
You could run a small electric freight train just after the end or just before the start of service, stop at every station to unload goods and have people take it to all the nearest shops. It would work perfectly at stations like Birkdale, Old Roan or Horwich Parkway.
 

Bletchleyite

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You could run a small electric freight train just after the end or just before the start of service, stop at every station to unload goods and have people take it to all the nearest shops. It would work perfectly at stations like Birkdale, Old Roan or Horwich Parkway.

When's the Ormskirk line getting 4-tracked and goods sidings added?
 

LOL The Irony

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New research suggests that tyre particulates are far more polluting than emissions from a modern ICE vehicle
That is a good point. Since around the mid 00's, there have been engines that produce cleaner air than what they sucked in, just watch early episodes of CHM Top Gear. There's also the Fiat 500s with free tax that are very clean. One other thing to note is, electric vehicles only start paying for themselves from an environmental point after around 70k miles, as volvo recently admitted.
One issue not yet mentioned is braking distance, and likelihood of not stopping in time. Yes, tax the heavier cars.
That being said, Top Gear did a test in around 2014 and a vanilla Vauxhall Insignia could stop from 113mph in the distance the highway code says it takes from 70mph.
That service was and can be done just as effectively by the railway, with horses and carts replaced by small battery electric vans rather than HGVs.
You can't fully replace HGVs with small vans, not even close. Using the railways to deliver the goods to distribution centres and then using HGVs to get the goods to supermarkets and the like is still a better idea. Electric vans would be better for Amazon deliveries.
 

PeterC

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That service was and can be done just as effectively by the railway, with horses and carts replaced by small battery electric vans rather than HGVs.
With direct rail delivery to all the houses built on the old goods yards
 

Kite159

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That being said, Top Gear did a test in around 2014 and a vanilla Vauxhall Insignia could stop from 113mph in the distance the highway code says it takes from 70mph.
Isn't the braking distances as quoted in the Highway Code still based on a 1960s car with drum brakes?

As for replacement tax for when the time comes that electric cars have to pay road tax, doing it by weight makes sense. Make the bands wide though, although it will probably mean some manufacturers will do tricks to get the weight underneath the band by 500g
 

507020

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When's the Ormskirk line getting 4-tracked and goods sidings added?
I don’t know but it wouldn’t be hard. You can redo Sandhills - Walton Junction without a problem and use the CLC from Aintree to Old Roan. From there the line becomes rural enough that you’ve got undeveloped land on at least one side of it most of the way to Town Green. Reopening all the goods sidings might be an idea though.
That is a good point. Since around the mid 00's, there have been engines that produce cleaner air than what they sucked in, just watch early episodes of CHM Top Gear. There's also the Fiat 500s with free tax that are very clean. One other thing to note is, electric vehicles only start paying for themselves from an environmental point after around 70k miles, as volvo recently admitted.
That was of course before Osbourne’s road tax reform when there were bands A-M, with A being £0 and B being either £20 or £25, before C was somewhere around £100.
That being said, Top Gear did a test in around 2014 and a vanilla Vauxhall Insignia could stop from 113mph in the distance the highway code says it takes from 70mph.
It was 112mph not 113mph, but the same as on the railway the standards have to be based around the worst/oldest vehicles. While the railway cab simply remove them when their performance becomes too much of a constraint, as Thameslink did with 319s, you can’t really ban classic cars from the roads, even if modern cars would allow us all to drive at 112mph, but what would that road speed increase do to the railway?
You can't fully replace HGVs with small vans, not even close. Using the railways to deliver the goods to distribution centres and then using HGVs to get the goods to supermarkets and the like is still a better idea. Electric vans would be better for Amazon deliveries.
That’s not what I’m suggesting and replacing a HGV with several electric vans would actually be even less efficient. I’d rail serve all current road/HGV distribution centres (the network of freight lines this would create is likely to prove useful for rail freight capacity) and replace HGV trailers with containers or special wagons on the railway, with goods taken to the nearest railway station to be unloaded for final delivery in a small electric van. Effectively the roads would only be used for last mile deliveries with goods carried more efficiently by road for virtually the whole journey.
With direct rail delivery to all the houses built on the old goods yards
Yes, but I’ve spotted many old goods yards in use as car parks, even with original cobbles and the new houses built further up. For houses that back directly onto a railway, direct rail delivery at the rear, by leaving parcels behind a fence would use the least energy rather than driving them back from the railway station.
Isn't the braking distances as quoted in the Highway Code still based on a 1960s car with drum brakes?
Yes.
 

LOL The Irony

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Make the bands wide though, although it will probably mean some manufacturers will do tricks to get the weight underneath the band by 500g
I'd have the bands go up in increments of 500kg, say something like this:
>500kg - £0
500 - 999kg - £20
1000 - 1499kg - £50
etcetera etcetera
I’d rail serve all current road/HGV distribution centres (the network of freight lines this would create is likely to prove useful for rail freight capacity) and replace HGV trailers with containers or special wagons on the railway
Well that's a better idea than what you initially explained.
with goods taken to the nearest railway station to be unloaded for final delivery in a small electric van.
This could only really work at night once all the last trains have finished. There's also the next problem of where do you keep these goods during the day? I still think you'd need distribution centres, as these are the most efficient means of sending goods to their final destination.
Effectively the roads would only be used for last mile deliveries with goods carried more efficiently by road for virtually the whole journey.
This is what the government should be pushing for, so people will be happier to use public transport for long distance journeys.
 

cactustwirly

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That service was and can be done just as effectively by the railway, with horses and carts replaced by small battery electric vans rather than HGVs.

So you're telling me you can transport a tanker full of chemicals from the supplier in the north east to my workplace in the south east by rail. At a reasonable cost and within a day? Then transport the finished goods leaving at 11am and getting to the customer before the end of the working day? That's completely practical by rail isn't it?

You could run a small electric freight train just after the end or just before the start of service, stop at every station to unload goods and have people take it to all the nearest shops. It would work perfectly at stations like Birkdale, Old Roan or Horwich Parkway.

That's too slow, most deliveries are based on just in time, ie deliveries are made within a day.
 

SynthD

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The distribution systems have become geared towards what costs what people are willing to pay. Adding stops for a freight train to chuck a box over individual fences is very inefficient.
People will not tolerate a backwards step, or dozen, for the glee of rail delivery. Electric vans tick the green box just fine.
 

507020

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The distribution systems have become geared towards what costs what people are willing to pay. Adding stops for a freight train to chuck a box over individual fences is very inefficient.
People will not tolerate a backwards step, or dozen, for the glee of rail delivery. Electric vans tick the green box just fine.
Well clearly electric vans are more efficient than chucking boxes over a fence individually so I think that’s the matter of those solved for last mile delivery, but it is really the long distance transport which could be reconfigured for energy efficient and tyreless rail.
 

ld0595

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I think taxing by weight would be sensible with a surcharge for higher priced vehicles for 5 years or so (similar to the current arrangement.)

The big problem that the government has is trying to make up the revenue shortfall from losing out on taxes from petrol/diesel. I could eventually see us going to a distance based surcharge. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to what we have now (further distance = more fuel used = more tax) but that's potentially much more difficult to implement.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think taxing by weight would be sensible with a surcharge for higher priced vehicles for 5 years or so (similar to the current arrangement.)

The big problem that the government has is trying to make up the revenue shortfall from losing out on taxes from petrol/diesel. I could eventually see us going to a distance based surcharge. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to what we have now (further distance = more fuel used = more tax) but that's potentially much more difficult to implement.

I still think a combination of urban parking and congestion taxation would do it, plus potentially motorway tolling.
 

DelayRepay

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The big problem that the government has is trying to make up the revenue shortfall from losing out on taxes from petrol/diesel. I could eventually see us going to a distance based surcharge. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to what we have now (further distance = more fuel used = more tax) but that's potentially much more difficult to implement.

I think distance based charging is quite likely. I don't think it would be too difficult to implement using technology.

You could set up a system where the car reports its mileage on a regular basis, and users are billed. I can see it working a bit like electricity smart meters, where most people will pay a monthly amount to cover their estimated usage and this is adjusted occasionally to take into account their actual usage. For people who, for whatever reason, avoid automatic submissions of their mileage, it would be updated automatically when they have their MOT. Sales of vehicles with outstanding tax could be blocked by the DVLA. Non-payers could also be dealt with in the same way as people who don't pay their road tax, i.e. the vehicle can be clamped and taken away.
 

DC1989

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Greater London are opening looking into bringing road pricing in within the decade. I think there'll be some kicking and screaming along the way but the national government will follow not long after.

With all new car models from this year being fitted with black boxes and speed limiters there should gradually be a big increase in road safety over the next 10-15 years. More so if the 20mph in cities trend continues
 

87 027

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If you did it on a simple per-mile basis it wouldn't need to report anything other than the number of miles driven.
The TfL consultation on future road user charging schemes invites respondents to select from a range of additional factors that should be taken into account in setting the price; these include the availability of alternative transport for the route taken and household income
 
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