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Suggestion for Metropolitan Line extension

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Basil Jet

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Problems:
1) HS2 will dump loads of extra people into Euston with insufficient capacity to get rid of them.
2) Crossrail 2 is expensive, and despite politicking from Boris, it ain't going to happen.
3) The c2c, the only main railway with no Zone 1 tube connection, has been ignored by the Crossrail project, with the Abbey Wood branch passing under the platforms of Limehouse station with no interchange, and the Shenfield branch running beneath the c2c for 1 kilometre with no station on either line.
4) The H&C has lost its raison d'etre, with a quicker route between Whitechapel, Liverpool Street, Farringdon and Paddington now available. When HS2 connects Old Oak to Euston, most traffic from Paddington to Euston and Kings Cross will also disappear, so the first part of the Underground is becoming somewhat redundant in its original (and current) form.
5) The Amersham line having trains from Baker Street and Marylebone is a bit crap - they are too close to serve different parts of London, but too far apart to enable you to enjoy the combined frequency.
6) The capacity through Euston Square is constrained by all the flat junctions on the Circle Line, and also by the alternating 7- and 8-car trains.

Solution:
The line through Euston Square needs to be all 8-car and have no flat junctions.

Baker Street Circle platforms should become a 2-platform terminus for trains from Hammersmith, with trains from Wimbledon and a (renamed) Circle Line from Gloucester Road etc also being extended there from Edgware Road. The current Metropolitan Baker Street terminators would be extended through Euston Square. The line from Aylesbury to Amersham would be (overhead) electrified and that part of the Chiltern service would become part of the Metropolitan Line, remaining on the Met fast tracks past Harrow to Euston Square and beyond. The Chiltern line from Harrow to Neasden would become disused, and this would probably allow more trains to run into Marylebone from the South Ruislip direction, for which I believe there is demand. The current hourly capacity through Harrow seems to be up to 22 8-car Mets (some to Baker Street, some to Aldgate) + up to 5 5-car Chilterns. When all of these are made 8-car and extended through Euston Square, there should be room for more.

The abandonment of the Chiltern Harrow Line where it crosses the WCML would allow the Met tracks to be slewed southward, allowing a pair of curves to branch off the outside and descend and curve to a flat junction with the Slow Lines on the east side of the WCML. In this way some of the WCML Slow Line service could become part of the Metropolitan line, giving noticeably slower journeys to Euston but faster journeys to Baker Street, Kings Cross etc. This would lessen the number of people changing at Euston itself. (I don't know enough about freight on the WCML to know if this flat junction is feasible.)

East of Euston Square, the Metropolitan line would take over the C2C. Aldgate and Aldgate East stations would be closed, and the Met line would descend within the footprint of Aldgate station to a new Aldgate interchange roughly where the bus station is, with new Met platforms beneath and just east of new District platforms on the existing alignment. After a small amount of demolition, the Met would curve eastward and break the surface at the corner of Pinchin Street and Back Church Lane, and then rise to join the LTS viaduct at Cannon Street Road to take over the entire LTS service. I believe the tracks into Fenchurch Street currently carry about 192 carriages per hour per direction and the tracks through Barbican currently carry about 200 carriages per hour per direction, so the capacities match well. The Circle service west of Tower Hill and the H&C service east of Aldgate East would be joined to give a new Loop service from Barking to Baker Street via Gloucester Road.

Any additional Met trains could be sent to Barking Riverside, which would be extended to 8 carriages: the Overground service would revert to terminating at platform 1 at Barking. Replacement of a smaller number of 12-carriage trains on the c2c with a larger number of 8-carriage trains would probably overload the flat junction at Barking, requiring grade separation - this can probably be done using existing bridges with rearranged tracks.

Fenchurch Street could be closed and sold, or could replace Tower Gateway as a prettier DLR terminus which is nearer to Tower Hill tube. (Network Rail's 2020 Essex Thameside Study discussed closing Fenchurch Street station and relocating it to Tower Gateway.)

The changeover between 4th rail and overhead might occur at new Shadwell platforms, and also at Amersham (and maybe at the new Kenton curve). The extended Metropolitan line might be branded as another line of the Crossrail network, since Shoeburyness and Aylesbury are the same distance from London as Reading, although Underground service at Shoeburyness and Aylesbury does have a historical precedent.
 
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R

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A few quibbles:
- It's likely that the use of HS2 as an OOC-Euston shuttle will be heavily discouraged, if not prohibited.
- The H&C also has the purpose of linking large parts of inner West London to the Marylebone/Euston/City Roads and the several mainline terminals there. Areas like Hammersmith and Shepherd's Bush are not on Crossrail and North Kensington is nearby the line but without a station. Hammersmith does have the Piccadilly to KXSP and Shepherd's Bush does have the Central to Liverpool Street, but I don't think there's enough capacity for new District services from Hammersmith to the sub-surface line through Paddington. As such, these areas would have no direct link to Paddington, none to your new Baker Street interchange, none to Euston, a poor link to KXSP, and a minor link to Liverpool Street. Furthermore you'll have cut direct links to the City by a third.
 

stuu

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1) Really? At least a third of them will get off at OOC
2) True.
3) True in a purely academic sense, the distance to Tower Hill is probably shorter than some interchanges at mainline stations.
4) Nonsense, as most passengers on the H&C are not transferring between the mainline termini.
5) Not really, it depends on your final destination. If heading for the west end it doesn't matter as you would be changing anyway.
6) A bit, it is still intended to get to 32tph, if the resignalling ever finishes.

You would need considerably more than the space within Aldgate station for any sort of tunnelling. A small amount of demolition????

The number of carriages is not the same as amount of train. Each carriage on C2C is 25% longer than on the Underground, this is an issue.

The WCML link is not a great idea either. Pre-covid, the Met was full with trains, full with passengers. No one on the WCML would thank you for replacing their 100mph 240m long train with a 60mph 130m long train with bugger-all seating
 

6Gman

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Am I reading this right?

The Met would now run from Aylesbury to Shoeburyness?
 

A S Leib

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The WCML link is not a great idea either. Pre-covid, the Met was full with trains, full with passengers. No one on the WCML would thank you for replacing their 100mph 240m long train with a 60mph 130m long train with bugger-all seating
And linking the Watford DC line to the Met at Northwick Park would presumably be far more expensive and doesn't really provide any connections which don't already exist apart from Bushey and Harrow Weald to the City of London (which, especially for the latter, would probably still be quicker walking from Euston to Euston Square anyway).
 

Falcon1200

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4) The H&C has lost its raison d'etre, with a quicker route between Whitechapel, Liverpool Street, Farringdon and Paddington now available. When HS2 connects Old Oak to Euston, most traffic from Paddington to Euston and Kings Cross will also disappear, so the first part of the Underground is becoming somewhat redundant in its original (and current) form.

Disagree with this; There are other services from Euston beside HS2, and the disadvantage of Euston Square not being adjacent to Euston will surely disappear when the Underground station gets its long overdue east end access; Plus the Underground will still be the best route between Paddington and Kings X/St Pancras. Paddington is relatively poorly served by the Underground already, which Crossrail has only partially alleviated, please don't make the Underground service east of Paddington any worse than it already is ! (or give TfL ideas.....)

3) True in a purely academic sense, the distance to Tower Hill is probably shorter than some interchanges at mainline stations.

Yes, as long as you remember when arriving at Fenchurch St to use the mid-platform exits.....
 

mike57

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The line from Aylesbury to Amersham would be (overhead) electrified and that part of the Chiltern service would become part of the Metropolitan Line, remaining on the Met fast tracks past Harrow
I could see this happening in some form, but more likely an extension of the 4 rail north west. Issues would be dealing with capacity south of Neasden, and between Baker Street and Liverpool Street.

As for the other proposals, the longer the through journeys are the more room for disruption, and the recovery then becomes more difficult as well. I dont think the costs and disruption that the changes would generate would be beneficial in the long term. One of the current pains is the change at Edgware Rd when taking the circle line from High Street Ken and northwards to Kings Cross, I can understand why the circle line is no longer a circle but its still less convenient.
 

A0wen

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I could see this happening in some form, but more likely an extension of the 4 rail north west. Issues would be dealing with capacity south of Neasden, and between Baker Street and Liverpool Street.

4th rail is not a Network Rail standard - and the line from Mantles Wood (just north of Amersham station) to Aylesbury is Network Rail infrastructure - so I would say the chances of 4th rail being extended beyond Amersham are zero going on non-existent.
 

mike57

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4th rail is not a Network Rail standard - and the line from Mantles Wood (just north of Amersham station) to Aylesbury is Network Rail infrastructure - so I would say the chances of 4th rail being extended beyond Amersham are zero going on non-existent.
If it remains Network Rail, yes, I agree. Might it become part of LU in the future? It might not be in current plans but it could make sense depending upon what other changes and improvements are made.
 

The Planner

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If it remains Network Rail, yes, I agree. Might it become part of LU in the future? It might not be in current plans but it could make sense depending upon what other changes and improvements are made.
I doubt LUL would even be the slightest bit interested. How would you deal with Aylesbury?
 

A0wen

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If it remains Network Rail, yes, I agree. Might it become part of LU in the future? It might not be in current plans but it could make sense depending upon what other changes and improvements are made.

No - even with Khan's empire building of TFL, I can't see TFL being remotely interested.

There are 3 intermediate stations between Amersham and Aylesbury - none of which have particularly high usage figures and even Aylesbury only gets about 1.2m users - about 0.5 m less than Leighton Buzzard, which is about 1/3rd smaller than Aylesbury.
 

MarkyT

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4th rail is not a Network Rail standard - and the line from Mantles Wood (just north of Amersham station) to Aylesbury is Network Rail infrastructure - so I would say the chances of 4th rail being extended beyond Amersham are zero going on non-existent.
Although there are limited parts of the NR-owned network that have 4th rail electrification, with the centre conductor commoned up electrically with the running rails. Used by TfL-owned stock only clearly. The Richmond branch of the District and Bakerloo spring to mind. District between Putney and Wimbledon is also 4 rail, but was transferred to TfL at privatisation even though the infrastructure is all still managed by NR. I can't think any others. I agree with your assessment of likelyhood of extension beyond Amersham though. A stock replacement for Aylesbury might be a new GBR train with battery-electric/ hybrid capability that can also take power from the 4-rail TfL sections it passes over.
 

zwk500

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The OP does at least bring up one valid point. What if Crossrail 2 doesn't happen?
It will make no difference to this proposal, as crossrail 2 is southwest to northeast and the met is northwest to southeast.
 

PTR 444

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Problems:
1) HS2 will dump loads of extra people into Euston with insufficient capacity to get rid of them.
2) Crossrail 2 is expensive, and despite politicking from Boris, it ain't going to happen.
3) The c2c, the only main railway with no Zone 1 tube connection, has been ignored by the Crossrail project, with the Abbey Wood branch passing under the platforms of Limehouse station with no interchange, and the Shenfield branch running beneath the c2c for 1 kilometre with no station on either line.
4) The H&C has lost its raison d'etre, with a quicker route between Whitechapel, Liverpool Street, Farringdon and Paddington now available. When HS2 connects Old Oak to Euston, most traffic from Paddington to Euston and Kings Cross will also disappear, so the first part of the Underground is becoming somewhat redundant in its original (and current) form.
5) The Amersham line having trains from Baker Street and Marylebone is a bit crap - they are too close to serve different parts of London, but too far apart to enable you to enjoy the combined frequency.
6) The capacity through Euston Square is constrained by all the flat junctions on the Circle Line, and also by the alternating 7- and 8-car trains.

Solution:
The line through Euston Square needs to be all 8-car and have no flat junctions.

Baker Street Circle platforms should become a 2-platform terminus for trains from Hammersmith, with trains from Wimbledon and a (renamed) Circle Line from Gloucester Road etc also being extended there from Edgware Road. The current Metropolitan Baker Street terminators would be extended through Euston Square. The line from Aylesbury to Amersham would be (overhead) electrified and that part of the Chiltern service would become part of the Metropolitan Line, remaining on the Met fast tracks past Harrow to Euston Square and beyond. The Chiltern line from Harrow to Neasden would become disused, and this would probably allow more trains to run into Marylebone from the South Ruislip direction, for which I believe there is demand. The current hourly capacity through Harrow seems to be up to 22 8-car Mets (some to Baker Street, some to Aldgate) + up to 5 5-car Chilterns. When all of these are made 8-car and extended through Euston Square, there should be room for more.

The abandonment of the Chiltern Harrow Line where it crosses the WCML would allow the Met tracks to be slewed southward, allowing a pair of curves to branch off the outside and descend and curve to a flat junction with the Slow Lines on the east side of the WCML. In this way some of the WCML Slow Line service could become part of the Metropolitan line, giving noticeably slower journeys to Euston but faster journeys to Baker Street, Kings Cross etc. This would lessen the number of people changing at Euston itself. (I don't know enough about freight on the WCML to know if this flat junction is feasible.)

East of Euston Square, the Metropolitan line would take over the C2C. Aldgate and Aldgate East stations would be closed, and the Met line would descend within the footprint of Aldgate station to a new Aldgate interchange roughly where the bus station is, with new Met platforms beneath and just east of new District platforms on the existing alignment. After a small amount of demolition, the Met would curve eastward and break the surface at the corner of Pinchin Street and Back Church Lane, and then rise to join the LTS viaduct at Cannon Street Road to take over the entire LTS service. I believe the tracks into Fenchurch Street currently carry about 192 carriages per hour per direction and the tracks through Barbican currently carry about 200 carriages per hour per direction, so the capacities match well. The Circle service west of Tower Hill and the H&C service east of Aldgate East would be joined to give a new Loop service from Barking to Baker Street via Gloucester Road.

Any additional Met trains could be sent to Barking Riverside, which would be extended to 8 carriages: the Overground service would revert to terminating at platform 1 at Barking. Replacement of a smaller number of 12-carriage trains on the c2c with a larger number of 8-carriage trains would probably overload the flat junction at Barking, requiring grade separation - this can probably be done using existing bridges with rearranged tracks.

Fenchurch Street could be closed and sold, or could replace Tower Gateway as a prettier DLR terminus which is nearer to Tower Hill tube. (Network Rail's 2020 Essex Thameside Study discussed closing Fenchurch Street station and relocating it to Tower Gateway.)

The changeover between 4th rail and overhead might occur at new Shadwell platforms, and also at Amersham (and maybe at the new Kenton curve). The extended Metropolitan line might be branded as another line of the Crossrail network, since Shoeburyness and Aylesbury are the same distance from London as Reading, although Underground service at Shoeburyness and Aylesbury does have a historical precedent.
This sounds like a Crossrail 3 but using existing infrastructure rather than building anything new. Connecting the Chiltern and c2c lines isn’t a bad idea in principle, but it would be better to do so through a new tunnel beneath Central London. Preferably via Bond Street, Victoria, Waterloo and Blackfriars. The original section of the Met should be left as it is, although this new “Crossrail 3” could take over the various branches north of Baker Street.
 

Sad Sprinter

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A big alarm just went off in the office…

View attachment 115484

I really don't get this joke, although it's been going around this forum for years. I mean, who cares if people share their fantasy lines? As a casual enthusiast, I find that much more interesting than talking about the day to day management of the railway. It's pretty much why I don't bother posting in this sub-forum anymore because of the amount of "crayoning" jokes.

The OP does at least bring up one valid point. What if Crossrail 2 doesn't happen?
Hence why I am puzzled and frustrated there is no station on the LO at OOC and the WLL is still only a train every 10-15 mins
 

Basil Jet

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No - even with Khan's empire building of TFL, I can't see TFL being remotely interested.

There are 3 intermediate stations between Amersham and Aylesbury - none of which have particularly high usage figures and even Aylesbury only gets about 1.2m users - about 0.5 m less than Leighton Buzzard, which is about 1/3rd smaller than Aylesbury.
Crossrail 1 was planned for many years to take over the Aylesbury via Harrow service (and the Chesham branch too). It was removed from the plan when passenger numbers on it failed to grow, and the tunnel from Old Oak to Neasden Junction could no longer be justified. After that removal the obvious thing to do would be to send half of the Crossrail service somewhere else, such as Uxbridge via Park Royal, or Richmond via Acton Central etc etc, and I could never understand why they decided to take the bonkers decision of just terminating half the service at Paddington / Old Oak. It just occurred to me that TfL might still be holding a torch for Aylesbury, and they didn't want to create more branches of Crossrail because they are waiting until demand on the Chiltern picks up and they can then justify the tunnel from Old Oak to Neasden Junction. Whether this is true or not (and maybe someone here knows for sure), I am sure that if someone else paid to electrify (fourth rail) Amersham to Aylesbury tomorrow and asked TfL if they want it, TfL would not turn their nose up at it, otherwise it would not have been included in the Crossrail plan for so many years.

6) A bit, it is still intended to get to 32tph, if the resignalling ever finishes.

Wow, 32tph with the flat junctions? I didn't know that. But 32tph with all 8-carriage trains is the equivalent of two extra tph over 32tph with the current mixed lengths. And without the flat junctions, you would probably get more.

You would need considerably more than the space within Aldgate station for any sort of tunnelling. A small amount of demolition????

You are right. I have remeasured on different maps, and descending within Aldgate station would not get the Met under the District Line! But...

The number of carriages is not the same as amount of train. Each carriage on C2C is 25% longer than on the Underground, this is an issue.

Thanks, this is a massive show-stopper. (That sounded sarcastic, but the thanks is genuine). The Met without flat junctions probably just about has enough capacity to carry the current c2c traffic, but since Network Rail are talking about getting rid of Fenchurch Street and replacing it with something bigger, there is no way connecting c2c to the Met and straitjacketing the c2c at its current capacity can be entertained. Which is a shame, because the little gap between the two purple lines on https://i2-prod.hertfordshiremercur...TERNATES/s810/0_Tube-map-london-centreJPG.jpg has been bugging me for years. There is no other place in London where such frequent services from opposite directions terminate so close to each other (although Edgware Road/Marylebone comes close).

But if Network Rail relocates the c2c terminus to the current Tower Gateway site, it would be 300 metres from the Met terminus at Aldgate and 100 metres from Tower Hill station. Travelators between Aldgate and the c2c and between the c2c and Tower Hill could get you from Met to c2c in 2.5 minutes, Met to District in 3.5 minutes, and c2c to District in 1 minute, which would be far better than the 10 minute waits for the Circle Line now.

The WCML link is not a great idea either. Pre-covid, the Met was full with trains, full with passengers. No one on the WCML would thank you for replacing their 100mph 240m long train with a 60mph 130m long train with bugger-all seating
I was suggesting the enhanced Met would have 100 mph trains rather than keep the current 60mph stock with pantographs bosticked on the roof.
 
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tomuk

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Well the Dudding Hill line gets you from Old Oak to Neasden.
 

Bald Rick

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Crossrail 1 was planned for many years to take over the Aylesbury via Harrow service (and the Chesham branch too). It was removed from the plan when passenger numbers on it failed to grow, and the tunnel from Old Oak to Neasden Junction could no longer be justified.

I wouldn’t say ‘many years’. Paging @ChiefPlanner ….
 

ChiefPlanner

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I wouldn’t say ‘many years’. Paging @ChiefPlanner ….

The whole Crossrail 1 scheme was binned by the Conservatives , not just the Aylesbury leg. 1994 -1996.

(admittedly the traffic potential down the Met extension was not the same as the Thames Valley / and a minor airport , - and costs were pretty high)

Ironically , my planning mate as was , for the Met bits , passed on this week. He never did get to ride the shiny , truncated , Crossrail - as did his boss not long ago, - we shall remember them accordingly)
 

stuu

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Thanks, this is a massive show-stopper. (That sounded sarcastic, but the thanks is genuine). The Met without flat junctions probably just about has enough capacity to carry the current c2c traffic, but since Network Rail are talking about getting rid of Fenchurch Street and replacing it with something bigger, there is no way connecting c2c to the Met and straitjacketing the c2c at its current capacity can be entertained. Which is a shame, because the little gap between the two purple lines on https://i2-prod.hertfordshiremercur...TERNATES/s810/0_Tube-map-london-centreJPG.jpg has been bugging me for years. There is no other place in London where such frequent services from opposite directions terminate so close to each other (although Edgware Road/Marylebone comes close).
I know what you mean. However, linking the Met and Fenchurch Street really isn't a goer. In a world of unlimited funding and no moaning about compulsory purchase, my crayoning scheme would send the Met underground to Bermondsey and take over the line to Greenwich, terminating at Abbey Wood. This would entail demolition on a scale last attempted by Herman Goering though.

The Fenchurch st lines would go into a tunnel somewhere west of Limehouse and connect with the Windsor lines out of Waterloo, giving London a second east-west crossrail route.

Probably cost less than CR2 as well. And just as unlikely.
 

tomuk

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Surely we just need to resurrect Phase 2 of the Fleet Line and connect C2C to the defunct Jubilee Charing Cross Branch. Stations at Aldwych, City Thameslink, Canon Street and Fenchurch Street. Maybe an extra tunnel from Green Park Jnc to Baker Street so as not to disturb the Jubilee


.
dlr-west.jpg
 

Basil Jet

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I know what you mean. However, linking the Met and Fenchurch Street really isn't a goer. In a world of unlimited funding and no moaning about compulsory purchase, my crayoning scheme would send the Met underground to Bermondsey and take over the line to Greenwich, terminating at Abbey Wood.
I think I spoke to you at the Crossrail 2 public meeting at Wimbledon some years ago!
 

Railwaysceptic

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It just occurred to me that TfL might still be holding a torch for Aylesbury, and they didn't want to create more branches of Crossrail because they are waiting until demand on the Chiltern picks up and they can then justify the tunnel from Old Oak to Neasden Junction. Whether this is true or not (and maybe someone here knows for sure), I am sure that if someone else paid to electrify (fourth rail) Amersham to Aylesbury tomorrow and asked TfL if they want it, TfL would not turn their nose up at it, otherwise it would not have been included in the Crossrail plan for so many years.
Why do you believe TfL might be interested in Aylesbury? London Underground have been adamant for decades that they have no intention ever of going back to Aylesbury. TfL's territorial ambitions are exclusively for routes which generate lots of cash, so they greedily take over services to Chingford and Reading. Pre-Covid off-peak traffic to/from Aylesbury was so minimal that Chiltern found two coach toy trains were sufficient.
 

cle

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I think the Croxley link was the most logical extension. Even if slimmed down (one intermediate station, double ended perhaps for Watford Hospital/West) - it made a lot of network sense.

As for the other way, is the long-crayoned Canary Wharf extension really needed? Canary Wharf to Farringdon/Barbican/Moorgate/Liverpool St is now a dream!

I'd prefer a DLR station at Tower on the Bank line, with Gateway closed and all services running to Bank and Tower. Likely not extended beyond the fancy, spacious and new exitty Bank/Monument/Cannon St complex. Again, a great link from the city to Canary Wharf. The Jubilee, Crossrail and DLR are plenty now for CW, I think.
 
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