• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

London Waterloo retail - what's going on?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fiyero

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
277
Location
Eastleigh, Hampshire
I've noticed the shiny retail area in the old Eurostar terminal is looking closer to completion - the toilets there were even on offer as additional toilets at the jubilee!

What seems odd to me is the amount of other retail on the main concourse closed for long refurbs - Costa, Burger King and now (the bigger) M&S. It seems really odd to me to close them all before the new part is open.

I've done some searching but is there a website with the grand plan or anything? I've found that they want to bring up standards but I'm not sure why closing M&S until next year helps!

I also assume we aren't getting the bridge to South Bank back ?!?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,020
One wonders just how many "major refurbs" the retail backline at Waterloo has needed to have over recent years. It does seem also to have a history of decanting the popular units, and replacing them with trendy places that are less used.

Regarding the very well-used South Bank footbridge, I heard it was removed because there was no accessible lift on the other side of the road.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,276
Regarding the very well-used South Bank footbridge, I heard it was removed because there was no accessible lift on the other side of the road.
I think that route from the station loses its purpose completely once Elizabeth House (the building it passes through) is demolished for redevelopment. For York Rd you’ll have to descend to orchestra pit level.
 

pelli

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2016
Messages
244

Fiyero

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
277
Location
Eastleigh, Hampshire
One wonders just how many "major refurbs" the retail backline at Waterloo has needed to have over recent years. It does seem also to have a history of decanting the popular units, and replacing them with trendy places that are less used.

Regarding the very well-used South Bank footbridge, I heard it was removed because there was no accessible lift on the other side of the road.
I think that route from the station loses its purpose completely once Elizabeth House (the building it passes through) is demolished for redevelopment. For York Rd you’ll have to descend to orchestra pit level.

There was a lift on the other side, I always thought it might be the tenants of the building it attached to getting snooty!
If it is all being redeveloped anyway maybe it was easier to get rid now. Be a shame if there isn't a bridge across that road anymore, though I guess the new development's retail wouldn't want bypassing!

The new retail area has a website at https://thesidingswaterloo.co.uk/ which doesn't contain much useful information (apart from promising there will be a BrewDog), and nothing about any overall grand plan.

Some (less annoyingly presented) CGI pictures are available at https://lcrproperty.co.uk/portfolio/waterloo-london/, and some recent pictures at
https://www.mylondon.news/news/gallery/exclusive-photos-inside-waterloo-station-24114464
Thanks. That covers the new area well, I guess I just was confused about closing the old stuff before the new stuff is there. I'd have thought open the new then redevelop the old to encourage people to visit the new!
 

James H

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
1,084
Keep in mind that the landlords are different for the existing concourse and the Sidings - Network Rail vs LCR - so joined up thinking may not come into it.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,276
There was a lift on the other side, I always thought it might be the tenants of the building it attached to getting snooty!
If it is all being redeveloped anyway maybe it was easier to get rid now. Be a shame if there isn't a bridge across that road anymore, though I guess the new development's retail wouldn't want bypassing!
There was a lift just newly installed on the west side of the road, because they had an either/or planning requirement when built, depending on the future development. That lift will now be removed.

But the current Lambeth council planning policy is to revert all walking routes to street level with improved crossings, so the latest Elizabeth House plans do now fully remove the bridge and stairs. IIRC the high level route once took you all the way to Hungerford bridge, but it’s been gradually removed over many years. They’re also going to be removing the subways and lifts immediately adjacent to Victory Arch, again to put pedestrians back to street level.

My apologies in advance for drifting away from “railway” stuff, but I suppose it is still loosely about the station access policy…
 
Last edited:

Recessio

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
628
I was just about to say, the reason Burger King may be getting such a big refurb is because it still looks basically identical to how it did when it was a Casey Jones!
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,695
Location
London
There was a lift just newly installed on the west side of the road, because they had an either/or planning requirement when built, depending on the future development. That lift will now be removed.

But the current Lambeth council planning policy is to revert all walking routes to street level with improved crossings, so the latest Elizabeth House plans do now fully remove the bridge and stairs. IIRC the high level route once took you all the way to Hungerford bridge, but it’s been gradually removed over many years. They’re also going to be removing the subways and lifts immediately adjacent to Victory Arch, again to put pedestrians back to street level.

My apologies in advance for drifting away from “railway” stuff, but I suppose it is still loosely about the station access policy…

Yes - the high-level route allowed access to the South Bank complex from the station concourse without ever going down to street level - and extremely useful and well-patronised it was too in those days. (Though if you used it the whole way from the station to the Festival Hall, rather than dropping down sooner, there was a part where you went down a small flight of stairs - though not down to street level - and up again, so as to get under one of the railway arches carrying the Waterloo East lines to the railway bridge over the river.)
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,020
I was just about to say, the reason Burger King may be getting such a big refurb is because it still looks basically identical to how it did when it was a Casey Jones!
Sold out at BR privatisation to BK in the mid-1990s. The Waterloo one was the first one in the chain. Here's a photo of how it was then :


But the current Lambeth council planning policy is to revert all walking routes to street level with improved crossings, so the latest Elizabeth House plans do now fully remove the bridge and stairs.

You have to wonder what Wokery led to this. The route now to the London Eye etc is down the Victory Arch steps and across the road. Apart from the timewasting, as I have passed two pedestrian accidents there over recent years, one fallen down the Victory steps in the snow, the other hit by a motorbike crossing York Road, you have to wonder what sort of Risk Assessment led to this - and what a waste of expensive infrastructure thrown away to satisfy some oddball fetish.
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,787
Location
West Riding
One wonders just how many "major refurbs" the retail backline at Waterloo has needed to have over recent years. It does seem also to have a history of decanting the popular units, and replacing them with trendy places that are less used.

Regarding the very well-used South Bank footbridge, I heard it was removed because there was no accessible lift on the other side of the road.
Some station retail unit lets come with a clause stipulating the frequency of refurbs.
 

Big Jumby 74

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
1,021
Location
UK
You have to wonder what Wokery led to this. The route now to the London Eye etc is down the Victory Arch steps and across the road. Apart from the timewasting, as I have passed two pedestrian accidents there over recent years, one fallen down the Victory steps in the snow, the other hit by a motorbike crossing York Road, you have to wonder what sort of Risk Assessment led to this - and what a waste of expensive infrastructure thrown away to satisfy some oddball fetish.
It does make you wonder. Whilst the drive for a 'level playing (access) field' for all is very laudable (and I say this as someone who has suffered balance problems, and not just through ale consumption either :oops:), sometimes the apparent changes put in place, might have a potentially higher risk for the greater majority. Perhaps when all the work is finished at WA the end plan will become clearer?
 

dorsetdesiro

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
581
If you have restricted mobility then how do you get to the riverside? Down a lift or subways? Take another exit as the main entrance has steps?

It seems very silly to remove the direct & level access that was there before, I remember how straightforward it was in the late 1980s avoiding steps and busy roads. It seems quite tragic & backward to see this all replaced by lifts, subways and pedestrian crossings that take longer than before. I thought we are meant to be living a progressive age with more priority given to non-road traffic users?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,276
If you have restricted mobility then how do you get to the riverside? Down a lift or subways? Take another exit as the main entrance has steps?

It seems very silly to remove the direct & level access that was there before, I remember how straightforward it was in the late 1980s avoiding steps and busy roads. It seems quite tragic & backward to see this all replaced by lifts, subways and pedestrian crossings that take longer than before. I thought we are meant to be living a progressive age with more priority given to non-road traffic users?
They’re not replacing anything with subways as far as I can see from the planning website. As I posted earlier they are also removing various local subways, and where relevant the nearby lifts that provide step free access to those subways, eg those around the IMAX area. Lifts within the station will already get you from concourse level to outside street level, eg via the “orchestra pit”, although it might be better if there was such a lift alongside the Victory steps entrance as well.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
5,761
Location
Wilmslow
If you have restricted mobility then how do you get to the riverside? Down a lift or subways? Take another exit as the main entrance has steps?

It seems very silly to remove the direct & level access that was there before, I remember how straightforward it was in the late 1980s avoiding steps and busy roads. It seems quite tragic & backward to see this all replaced by lifts, subways and pedestrian crossings that take longer than before. I thought we are meant to be living a progressive age with more priority given to non-road traffic users?
The descriptions here are that the pedestrian routes are immeasurably worse then they were in the 1980s, and any "justification" sounds bonkers. It used to be incredibly easy to walk out of Waterloo and head to the Festival Hall, the Hungerford Bridge, or (in my case) IBM South Bank. It doesn't sound like a positive change, but of course there may be reasons which explain if not justify it.
 

dorsetdesiro

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
581
They’re not replacing anything with subways as far as I can see from the planning website. As I posted earlier they are also removing various local subways, and where relevant the nearby lifts that provide step free access to those subways, eg those around the IMAX area. Lifts within the station will already get you from concourse level to outside street level, eg via the “orchestra pit”, although it might be better if there was such a lift alongside the Victory steps entrance as well.

Thanks for this.

The possible solution is perhaps replace the stepped entrance with a gradual slope therefore easier to get down to the pedestrian crossing then straight down that walkway to the riverside?

Probably not if the main entrance has something like a historical preservation order on it thus preventing any alterations made to it.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,276
Thanks for this.

The possible solution is to replace the stepped entrance with a gradual slope therefore easier to get down to the pedestrian crossing then straight down to the riverside.

Probably not if the main entrance has something like a historical preservation order on it thus preventing any alterations made to it.
There is actually a separate planning application to improve the end face of the main station building that’s to the right of the Victory Arch (looked at from outside), ie the bit almost fully hidden by Elizabeth House. It’s apparently going to be properly refaced in Portland Stone to colour match the exterior to the left hand side of the arch, the Mepham St frontage. Ought to be a major improvement to that hemmed in area, in conjunction with the lift removal, and the full removal of the old roads to the Eurostar taxi rank and parking.

Edited to add Lambeth planning application reference:
“20/00345/FUL | Application for Full Planning Permission for works to Victory Arch including removal of western brick elevation, re-facing of western elevation and lower southern elevations in Portland stone, replacement windows, relocation of fire exit, relocation of external MEP kit, fireproofing and plant screen to roof, and all others works, in association with the adjoining redevelopment of Elizabeth House”
Link to website not provided as they time out.
 
Last edited:

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,382
Location
Ely
They’re not replacing anything with subways as far as I can see from the planning website. As I posted earlier they are also removing various local subways, and where relevant the nearby lifts that provide step free access to those subways, eg those around the IMAX area. Lifts within the station will already get you from concourse level to outside street level, eg via the “orchestra pit”, although it might be better if there was such a lift alongside the Victory steps entrance as well.

I was very surprised on exiting Waterloo via the Victory Arch recently to find the steps down to the subway for easy access to the IMAX, NFT, etc. having entirely vanished. So comprehensively so, I double-taked and had to think whether I'd been wrong all along that they were there in the first place, even though I've used them hundreds of times over the last 15 years or so.

But, yes, apparently so.

https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?Id=7859

Was still there in August 2021.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.503...4!1sn1yQs4Mtx8Eru3x4DkS6kw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I suppose these were in the way somewhat, and made a pinch-point when entering/exiting the station - but they were also remarkably useful, and it seems rather a backward step to have removed it entirely - especially when the alternative is crossing York Road, which as mentioned above isn't exactly the safest crossing in the country.
 

station_road

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2021
Messages
231
Location
By the sea
The official step free route to the South Bank is now via the Station Approach exit (the one between WH Smith and Burger King). There is a diagram on the National Rail website that I think is very confusing if you don't know the station and also shows exit 6 to the South Bank as open, when the accompaning text says:

Step free access: Exits 2 (Waterloo Road) and 3 (Station Approach) are step-free. Exits 4 and 5 (Victory Arch) have steps. Use exit 3 (Station Approach) for York Road, South Bank and bus stops on Tenison Way. Exit 6 (South Bank) is now permanently closed.
Network Rail station plan of Waterloo
 

jack31439

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2016
Messages
53
Location
South London
You have to wonder what Wokery led to this. The route now to the London Eye etc is down the Victory Arch steps and across the road. Apart from the timewasting, as I have passed two pedestrian accidents there over recent years, one fallen down the Victory steps in the snow, the other hit by a motorbike crossing York Road, you have to wonder what sort of Risk Assessment led to this - and what a waste of expensive infrastructure thrown away to satisfy some oddball fetish.

I personally wonder why you believe 'Wokery' to be a factor in this? How does being 'Woke' fit into what you've said?
 

dorsetdesiro

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
581
Good to know there are alternatives, I agree can be confusing if you are not a London regular.

Exit 6 used to be the route of choice of many & suitable for step-free access, it was just there and everyone seemed to know about it. Now with that severed & gone, Waterloo can seem more like a labyrinth if you didn't know it well.

It used to be lovely by simply walking over to Trafalgar Square via Hungerford bridge by avoiding nearly everything.
 

davews

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2021
Messages
647
Location
Bracknell
Also miss the old route to the south bank in the 1980s. When they introduced the new paths through to the Eye a couple of years I assumed that was the long term plan to replace it, it seems not. Now I always seem to get lost in the maze of alternative routes which have confusing signage. Progress, I think not.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,937
The new retail area has a website at https://thesidingswaterloo.co.uk/ which doesn't contain much useful information (apart from promising there will be a BrewDog), and nothing about any overall grand plan.

Some (less annoyingly presented) CGI pictures are available at https://lcrproperty.co.uk/portfolio/waterloo-london/, and some recent pictures at
https://www.mylondon.news/news/gallery/exclusive-photos-inside-waterloo-station-24114464
There is indeed going to be a massive two-storey Brewdog.
 

swr444

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2021
Messages
374
Location
London
From what I’ve heard, they’re all being refurbed due to the fire standards not being up to scratch. Apparently a fire could easily spread across each unit and network rail took the decision to close them earlier and get them gutted and re built with fire proof walls etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top